Joclyn's Switching Thread

[joclyn]

up until the adrenal, he's always been healthy and has always, always, always had a fabulous appetite - would eat anything i offered him with no fussing. actually had a bit of a fixation with the food bowl for the longest time - which i thought was odd since he was so young - not like he'd been at the farm long enough to experience the lack of food that happened there. turns out he WAS there long enough to experience that...he still, every time i put him in the cage, checks the food and water bowls to make sure they have something in them. even if i take him out of the cage just to hold him for a moment - first thing is he checks. it's so sad!! even after all this time - and i never let the kibble run out or the water - he still always checks.

i'm not seeing any weight loss, so, hopefully it was just an off day. which would be the first one he's had in the 2 1/2 years he's been here!!

they have done a nice job on the quail!! one is completely gone except for the wings and the other two are still in the process of being eaten. i'm surprised there isn't more stuff laying around - they ate everything except the wings! and the rest of the kidneys are gone, too.

same in the other cage, whatever was left of the kidney is gone and i'd left 2 weanlings out and both are gone. i purposely only left 2 as i wanted to see them eat the whole things rather than just the front half...i think i'm going to do another couple of the weanlings for those two (unless i can manage to cut the turkey neck into two pieces) and the three still have the two partial quail left, so, i'll stock them up in the morning.

oh, they're all shedding now, so, i'll be doing more stuff that will help move fur through for the next week or so...

[Heather]

It's awful how some of our little ones have been treated and the scars it leaves
Sounds like your guys did really well. Quail goes over real well here too.
What do you think.....your guys ready to graduate? You've got to be really close. They're eating almost everything as far as I can tell.
ciao

[joclyn]

yeah, they loved the quail! wasn't sure how the feathers were going to go over (knew they liked it cuz i've given the before grain canned quail before). i am absolutely amazed at how there was SO little to clean up, too!! well, not a lot of feathers around...they took all of them in and i had multiple piles of poo sticks this morning i have to say, the feathers are much better at moving fur through than the mice!!

they WERE hungry before i went to bed though (so this size quail - 2 week old - isn't really sufficient for a meal)...so, i got that turkey neck cut up, and put out the small piece for boo/finola and the larger piece for the boys - just some bones left in the boys cage and almost all the meat was gone from the piece in boo/finola's cage - it weighed a little more than 3 oz, so, that's about 2 oz of meat, so they had a decent sized meal. and i'm seeing a slight difference in finola - she's still too skinny - although, not that far off what has been her usual summer weight. moving her away from the big boys was a good move - she's getting her full portion now. still may have something going on (she's a bit bitey and that's not her norm unless she's mad about something) so, will still be monitoring her.

dunc seems to be back to himself - looking for food, looking to get out and play and interactive. guess he just had a bad couple days. hope he stays with the 'wanting to cuddle & be petted' tho - i love that and only 2 of them stay still long enough, so, he would make 3...

as for graduating, well, i think all but finola would classify for that. i still haven't seen her eating mice - although i'm sure she has been. and i think she's still a bit iffy with the organ meat...it's so hard to tell with her because she's always been such a birdlike eater that i can't monitor how much she eats because she just doesn't do it all in one or two or three sittings. and she's never been one to eat a lot of gravy, so, doing the organs like that i knew wasn't going to be all that big a success with her. i did see her eating the kidney on the hook the other day, so maybe she'll take the liver whole, too.

i guess i really should cage her by herself for a week so i can really see what's she doing with everything. how about i do that and then see just how well she's doing with things and then decide if she's graduated or not?

on a side note, when i was putting the turkey necks out, pixie and chauncey woke up and were curious so i let them sniff and taste if they wanted and both did since they both chewed at it, i pulled off small pieces and each took it and stashed it - right next to the food bowl (on either side, was cute as they did it at the same time). so, i took the pieces up and offered again...again they both stashed it - second time chauncey put it in the bowl with the kibble. so, very good sign!!

i think they're (all 5 of the others) are going to switch really easy! they've all had all the organs already and all willingly tried them - only grizel didn't want the kidney and she might like it whole rather than pureed and mixed with the yogurt. the whole kidney actually went over better than the pureed stuff with the 5 i've been working at switching, so, same might hold for the others as well.

[Heather]

I'm glad that your switching everyone up and changing who they are living with worked. No, don't change Finola again. Her personality reminds me of Calypso, and that's fragile. They don't take to change well and are very sketchy eaters. I've thought of a number of times of pulling her out of the "Furry Fang Gangs" cage. She's a snippy little thing and starts things then gets beaten up for it. The problem is she's really not bonded to anyone, but came in with Captain Jack. I almost lost her to shelter shock and I really don't want to rock the boat too much. I tried getting her to move in with my super senior girl Pooka but the fur just flew and the screaming was unbearable (so were all the poopies....not a good thing at all). If I pull her out and put her on her own she just curls up and sleeps her life away (she's only 3 but she might as well be 10) If you have concerns that Finola needs added food, try topping her up. I spend some quality time with Calypso and hand feed her in the evening. I know she's eating but I never see her eat, so this way I'm comfortable.
No, let's continue as things are until your comfortable with Finola's eating habits. There's no rush to graduate and I like that you are considering everyone instead of the majority. I know it's extra work for you to type and check in but I would much rather you be comfortable with everyone's eating habits.
I'm glad to hear that Dunc is feeling better. You never know it could have been a simple virus, like us it makes us a little under the weather but we're not really sick. Hopefully, he will continue to demand his snuggle time. I know that I have little ones who demand to be picked up and snuggled....Napoleon is the worst but even Mad Max and Fun-Go demand their time. The little girls, not so much but the boys love to snuggle.
ciao

[joclyn]

yeah, the dmk's have had such a hard time of it - emotionally and lots of weird medical issues. i lost one to a cancer that we thought was there yet never showed up on any tests (of which many different things were run and repeated). in fact, the bloodwork done on what was pulled from him less than a day before he passed didn't indicate anything - only one item on the cbc came back as 'off' and even then, only slightly so and not enough to worry about anything 'serious' being wrong...except that by the time the results came in he'd been gone for two days and the necropsy showed he was full of lymphoma - it was literally in every organ and every part of his body.

so, dunc acting odd has me worried - and, even with him getting back to his usual self, i'll always worry now. especially since he is older than i originally thought. winston has a much better chance to not have issues since he's had a better diet and from an earlier age - and an even better one now, lol. still, the genes and irresponsible breeding (in-bred in many cases) will take it's toll at some point.

as for finola, you mention about extra attention and hand-feeding to be sure enough is being taken in. i had been doing the hand-feedings initially - once i felt she was really comfortable with the raw (ie, once i saw her attack it upon it's arrival in the cage) i slacked off on that.

i have not been giving them their usual attention, either - one-on-one sessions have been lacking. maybe that's why she's not acting herself - i'll have to focus on her a bit more. generally she's got a good activity level. better than a few months ago - so the raw is showing its benefits in that respect

even though she and boo are bonded, once she got over her initial fear of the dmk's she did seem to bond with them, too. she may also be reacting to being away from them for sleep-time - they still have playtime to interact.

hmm, i guess there's no way to force them into eating their whole portion immediately that the food is put out, huh? if they did that, i could monitor and make sure everyone (finola & boo) get their fair share and could leave them all in one cage as they've been used to for so long.

i do always try to make a point of extrapolating what's going on and look at how it affects the individual as well as the whole group. sometimes you have to take the individuals needs over the whole - if at all possible, i try to take the whole into consideration, though. i hated pulling noodle and pixie out - especially pixie as she developed such a liking to obi and he for her. those two just weren't ready for raw at that point. really a shame because it was a nice cohesive group.

and pulling boo and finola out this past week - i knew it was for their benefit, yet, there are affects. hey, that could even be what was bothering duncan. heh, i just thought of that!

well, i do want to keep things as is - with maybe a day here/there of moving boo over and pulling dunc or winston to spend time with finola - for a week or two. just to be sure she really is doing okay with the raw.

yeah, a little extra work here and it holds you up from helping someone else. i'd really rather wait and be totally sure everything is as it should be, tho!

[Heather]

I really think that people have no idea how much work goes into running some of the bigger numbers of ferrets. I presently have one solo (my little Pooka hates everyone and the ones she doesn't hate she's terrified of). The Furry Fang Gang is made up of younger fuzzies who were brought in later, most are marshals and have some very serious health issues that will shorten their lives in the long run . The other batch, the older ones are mostly Path Valley brats and they are really picky about who they play with. They play hard and rough and if the other ferret doesn't respond properly they are rather brutal. Personalities, have to be taken into account. You do very well.
Illnesses....especially ferret illnesses are really difficult. I don't have to tell you that. I honestly think that people who think they know everything about these little ones are sadly mistaken or very much delusional.
ciao

[joclyn]

i agree, most people are mistaken and/or delusional when it comes to their knowledge. sheesh! even the docs that do research don't know all that much - so how can any of us owners??

even small groups can take a lot of effort - especially during adjustment phase-in and integration and even if things go 'well' there's always that delayed reaction thing that can happen. plus it can take them a year, and even longer in some cases, to become completely comfortable in a new home. i hate when i hear people just throwing newbies with originals with no phase-in period. just so much more added stress that's so totally unnecessary!

i watched those ferrets last year and i know she kind of thought i was nuts insisting on her bringing them over a few times beforehand so that they could get used to me and my place. thank goodness i insisted on it!! both were over or at 5 at the time, so, they needed to not just be thrown in somewhere completely unknown; they needed to at least be a little familiar with their new temp home; especially with her to be gone for such a long time!! if i hadn't insisted, the one would have gone into full shelter-shock - as it was, it happened yet wasn't full blown and we had ability to talk on the phone, so, they could hear her voice. that made a big difference!!

she's someone who wants to learn more and is open to thoughts and opinions and does research...although, she only does that on an as needed basis. which is not that bad - at least she does it when it's called for. i know quite a few that don't and it's to the detriment of the animals (ferret or other).

me, i do research ahead of time - to try to be as prepared as possible. and i follow things (on forums and mailing lists) when people talk about different issues. store the info for later cuz it's more than likely i'll be dealing with the same thing at some point! only thing i hadn't done too much research on beforehand was anemia - hadn't ever heard much mention of it. the first time i dealt with that, i was at a complete loss - and received no help when i was trying to get info. second time, i had some knowledge and that gave me the ability to do searches properly to get the info i needed to deal with it properly. and, it helped that the second time it was something that was treatable (first time, with percy, it wasn't).

they are definitely slowing down on amounts eaten. which makes sense since spring is almost officially here. it's staying light until about 6 pm now...

and, i'm learning things about what some of these new behaviours mean. especially with boo and finola. lol, she's bitey cuz she wants to go back in the cage to eat!! it dawned on me tonight that that might be why she gets bitey...and dang if she didn't run and attack that chicken leg as soon as i opened the door!!! boo has been doing his 'pick me up' thing a lot - usually he only does that when it's time to go to bed. duh!! he's wants to go munch too!!

i don't know why i didn't figure it out/think of it as a possibility sooner!!

question about hearts - do all poultry hearts provide the same nutrients? by that i mean all the same amino acids and same trace minerals? or would say, duck, have some things or more of some things that chicken and turkey have?

[joclyn]

boo had a bit of upset this morning. i think he ate the stomach from the mouse and that's what caused him to vomit.

even with finishing off the leftovers from last night, they absolutely DEVOURED the duck i put in. a bit over 3 ounces and it was gone withing 10 minutes. they've never eaten that fast! shows how much they love the duck though!!

i already had the rest of it in the other cage and nothing else defrosted so i put out a couple of weanlings - which they really didn't touch throughout the day.

the three didn't finish off their part of the duck, so i put boo and finola in there so they could have more...and again, they went at it and stayed at it for a bit. duncan was eating and finola was hesitant to go to the food - approached a couple times and then backed away (dunc can get territorial with food) and she didn't start eating until boo came over and laid in - and then, she kept boo between her and dunc. so, yes, moving her out of the cage was a good idea!! i may put winston in with her for a bit to give her tail a chance to regrow the fur boo's been chewing off...she'll still look crappy for the show, tho...

so for today: duck, mice (boo/finola) and turkey tonight.

[Heather]

I don't know if there are different levels of nutrients in the different species of hearts ...I'm going to guess that there is only because each has different levels in the meat itself. I son't imagine that it's huge differences but enough to offer you different levels of trace minerals and such. So, if you were going to choose the one that is best for whatever trace minerals I don't know...the one that is eaten I guess .
It's great that they're devouring their new diet. I really think that your moving Finola was a good thing for her. Perhaps, her spring coat will start coming in and so will the fur on her tail.
ciao

[joclyn]

i never asked about eggs!! i know if raw the yolk and white must be given separately. how often can they have it??

and what about lung? would that be muscle or organ?

you said before that tongue is pretty lean, so, that could be given at two meals per week? i'm thinking that it would be good to give after organ meat - kind of as an offset to the richness of the organs.

i bought some veal liver tonight - seems to be a firmer consistancy so maybe that will be better for them - especially if i can put it on the hooks since they do seem to like that better than chunks on a plate.

finola has some growth coming in - she did her shed last week - so, hopefully her tail will be covered with fuzz and/or short fur by next week. not likely tho so that'll hurt her for scoring. she's gained back a tiny bit of weight. she'll have a day by herself when boo is at the vets and i may extend that through the weekend so she can have no competition for food for a bit - doesn't take them long to regain weight, so, maybe i can get her back to normal by next week. we'll see.

boo, on the other hand, has gained back quite a bit. still under where he should be - in much better shape though.

both are quite active - much more so than a few months ago, so, the raw is doing well by them

dunc seems almost back to normal - does still do a good amount of cuddling before he wants down, tho. which is fine with me - i just still hope it means he's just getting mellow with age and not indicative of something being wrong and he wants comforted because of it.

[Heather]

Raw eggs...scrambled, white and yolk together never separate. Biotin problems if given separately. An egg is totally balanced if given in its entirety (white, yolk and shell). Don't give more than 3 x a week, I would twice. You get rat tail if you feed more often...does it sound like I know I thought every last ferret in the biz was coming down with adrenal. That's a few years ago but it rather sticks in ones memory.
I've found that sometimes after being sick and learning that cuddling is good that I get a ferret that enjoys snuggling.
ciao

[joclyn]

giving the yolk and white together when it's raw is completely against previous info given to me. and it was specifically stated that the biotin/aviden issue is only present when the egg is raw - that cooking it neutralizes whatever conflict there is between the two items.

totally confused now! do you have anything that documents it's best to give both together when raw???

[Heather]

Hmmm, good question. The documentation that I had was from another list. I will see if I can get it for you. I know that we discussed it at length and that was when we had finally worked it out that you couldn't feed eggs entirely as you would run into a biotin/aviden problem. You're right about the cooked though.
ciao

[joclyn]

i'll do some research this weekend - really HAVE to get the thing to try to pull info off the old hard drive!! i had hundreds of links in my favs...would have been nothing to go to the subfolder for raw food and find the info...

boo had a bad tooth! so, that answers for his weight loss these past few months. plus the switch to raw also affected that a bit, too, while he was getting adjusted to it. actually, since the raw is softer than kibble, that's why he's been gaining it back a bit once he was situated with it - even with the bad tooth.

spoiled lil guy - he got gizzards for breakfast yesterday, hearts for dinner (while at the vet) and i left more gizzards for this morning. those are his two fav things

finola did not eat the mice i left for her last night. all she did was move them to a different spot in the cage. and she barely touched the goat from yesterday morning, either. so, i left some chicken for her this morning. maybe she does have an issue with the fur - i'll go back to pinkies for her for a bit and then work directly with her with the furry ones.

got my order in from hare today, so, have some rabbit and more quail and hearts - so, i can actually give them as a full meal rather than as a treat thing like i've been doing (since it's hit-or-miss when buying the mixed gizzards/hearts packages in the store for how many hearts are in there - sometimes only a few and other times a ton).

[Heather]

I'm glad to see that you've got to the bottom of Boo's weight loss. It's so troubling when you know there's a problem but can't quite put your finger on it Napoleon lost a bit of weight when his tooth went south but he just started using the other side to chew with. It wasn't until his mouth started smelling bad that we figured it out, and there was nothing really to see, except some tartar build up on the one side. They found the rotted tooth when she the dental hygienist started cleaning his teeth.
Finola may indeed be having problems with the furrier side of eating prey, some of them do. I know with the last batch of rats their skin was really tough and the guys just dragged them around from place to place. Once I started cutting them in half then they get eaten.
Eggs....http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/eggwhite.htm
This was the primary discussion
Well the vet tech said, "Raw eggs contain avidin which binds up biotin
making it unavailable to the body. Biotin deficiency can lead to
neurological signs" (an anti raw person, and list, usually any slight
mention of even home cooking is rejected) Before I could even reply someone
else did with this link "This site
www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/eggwhite.htm
Discusses the fact that "and egg yolk is so high in biotin content
that biotin deficiency does not occur when whole raw eggs are fed"
I think I've found the article you were talking about by Mercola....there was considerable discussion about it and it was decided that if one fed eggs a lot (more than twice a week or made it a weekly feeding) it was something to really take into consideration. I only feed eggs once or twice a week and then I may not feed eggs again for a couple of weeks (balance over time) articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/02/09/raw-eggs.aspx
I have fed raw eggs to my furkids for years, even before I fed raw but never saw a problem as described here. It is certainly something to keep in mind but I think once again it becomes things of excess. If you want to feed the white one day and the yolk the other I can't see why not but because of the ferret's shortened digestive track I would be concerned that this would be to great a length of time between feeding the separate entities. Just a thought, certainly nothing really to base my theory on.
ciao