Joclyn's Switching Thread

[joclyn]

thurs: chicken no/bone and duck w/bone

i opted to move the appt. didn't know this morning that the low pressure system was going to move eastward before going north, nor that the predictions would go down to 8-12 (instead of 12-18). better to be safe than sorry - i was just worried about him ending up being there until saturday...

so, lil bugger proves me wrong by chowing down on the giblets last night and the chicken this morning

the duck was a big hit initially - i knew it would be because i've been giving dried duck for over a year now and they all love that...lol, took some pics - all 5 in a row attacking the leg/thigh

geez, they *just* fit in the feeding area...

after the initial attacking of the food, they're all hidden somewhere sleeping...not really all that much meat taken - they mostly worked at the skin. which is fine; especially for boo and finola. since duck is naturally fattier and the skin so much more so than chicken and turkey, should i expect to see some funky poo in the morning?

that piece is 12 oz (including bone) so, i expect to see quite a bit left in the morning (they're eating anywhere from 6-7 oz to 10 oz. with no consistancy yet). although, i am starting to see more active munching, from everyone, right when i put the food out rather than having to wake people up...so, they're getting on the routine and moving away from grazing whenever throughout the day. so, that's good. another plus to it is that i can better monitor how much finola and boo are taking in...and do a better job at making sure they're getting enough.

for the morning, since there will be duck leftover, i'm planning on chicken hearts and then they can finish off the duck during the day.

[Heather]

You and your little ones are doing fantastic. This is sooo great.
Yes, you may indeed see some rather funky poops, so not to worry too much. With the amount of fat and skin you may not only get some strange consistencies you may also get some funky colours too
Don't you love it when they prove you wrong. I do, especially in that manner. I'm sorry that you moved your appt....it's ok...I got all your snow It's still snowing When are you going to take him in now?
ciao

[joclyn]

been exorbitantly busy.

i changed his appt to next week - and it turned out the weather wasn't all that bad, so i could have kept the original appt. since the weather people couldn't lock down a firm prediction, i just didn't want to chance it...

k, did some musical cages stuff and have boo & finola separated from the other three - did that friday (once i could see chauncey's lupron shot was starting to have an effect and i could put him in with one of the pairs).

finola is extremely thin - vet was upset when i had them in on sunday for lupron shots. boo has actually gained back a little bit of weight in just the short time of having them by themselves. i'm hoping to see finola gain back now that she only has to deal with one other for food and that one is about the same eating pattern (iow, isn't going to scarf everything down while she's asleep). i can also see better just how much they'll eat in a sitting - was hard to tell with all of them together. beef is definitely not something they're interested in either. especially finola - at least boo will eat a little of it - she really won't touch it other than one mouthful.

i wasn't sure about them eating the mice, so i put pinkies out for them (gave 4 each) and they did eat them. i left weanlings out this morning - i'm hoping they'll eat them (we'll see).

k. menu - i've been so darn busy i've not really kept notes. my bad.

friday: chicken hearts and rest of duck and then beef
saturday: chicken w/bone and gizzards
sunday: lamb w/bone and mice
monday: gizzards and chicken w/bone
tuesday: chicken w/bone and mice
wednesday: mice and will be gizzards tonight and will also be trying the brains

duncan, obi and winston aren't drinking very much water - none seem dehydrated. i expected water consumption to go down because the meats have moisture in them. i didn't expect it to go down to almost no intake though.

and then with boo & finola, they're fluctuating. some days i need to fill the bowl up and other days they've barely touched it. and, before i moved them out, boo did seem dehydrated a few times over the past couple weeks. he seems to be okay now, though, since i've got them separated.

i'm just worried.

and poo output is not much either - i'm definitely putting enough food out - there's usually something left when i get home from work and when i wake up in the morning. so, they're taking in enough. is it just a matter of their bodies getting completely used to it and utilizing it properly??

one other thing and it's boo/finola (and mostly boo, i think) that are putting out very black poo. even after eating chicken (lamb or beef i'd definitely expect it to be dark). now, if there was no weight loss going on, i wouldn't be all that worried if this is normal or not. with that being in the picture, i am worried. and finola is putting out very tiny blobs (which may be due to not really taking in what she needs to) and that's not gotten better in the past few days since they've been caged separately and she's definitely been taking more food in.

so, i'm worried. unfounded or not? should i have the vet look at them?? no odd odors to the poo and they're acting okay and eyes look good. well, boo seems a little bit pissy sometimes - so he might have some stomach upset going on or it could just be that the lupron was wearing off...

[Heather]

You had Finola in at the vet and she had lost weight. Is she grinding her teeth, showing any signs of discomfort? Are her poops darker after eating a certain meal? I was reading through your list. It just might be the diet itself. My guys have particularly dark poops, sometimes even black after eating mice, and organ meats (high blood meats). Gizzards fall into that catagory. It may sound odd but try giving her either some ferret lax or some extra pumpkin. It may indeed be that her body is still using up most of the food that she's ingesting. I have noticed with my little girls, when I mess up their housing that they mark by poopin little dots of poop. I always give them some extra ferret lax when they do this but this appears (at least with my brats) to be more a territorial or behavioural thing than a health thing) If you're worried always err on the side of caution and take her to the vet. If your guys were healthy, I wouldn't be concerned but as they are suffering adrenal. It appears to react with different ferrets in different manners and is also more aggressive (or appears to be) in younger ferrets than older. You must always be wary of this disease as it's damage is done beyond one's sight and even vet's don't really understand it.
Your guys will drink a lot less. The raw food makes it that way As your guys get more comfortable you will see it become more consistent. You will also get to know foods that they like or not. As they are better able to use their food, they will be able to more comfortably refuse the foods they don't like
Good luck, keep me posted
ciao

[joclyn]

yes, finola is doing the tiny piles and she is not using the litter box in the new cage all the time either...very unusual for her IN the cage as she's usually 100% there and it's out in the play area or at shows where she goes out of the box. she's her usual active self - actually a bit more so than she's been, so, i think her weight loss is just going through the adjustment as well as not really getting her share due to how/when she usually eats. she's deaf and does the snd, so, she's usually behind the others when the food is put out. and if i wake her up, she doesn't always eat - so, just misses out even though i usually leave a good amount of food out...sometimes i think i have misjudged it and, as they're getting more familiar with it, they are eating more and i am still working with stuff portioned out at lower amounts - which i will adjust up a bit with the next bunch of stuff i buy and store.

i'm pretty sure the really dark poo is coming from boo. he's had a couple of blah days - is doing much better now that he's away from the 3 bigger/more aggressive eaters. and he did put on a couple ounces just from friday to sunday, so, maybe it is the food and the body still getting used to it.

i did think maybe all the really dark meats were the cause and that's why i did the chicken a bit more last week - didn't realize mice would also cause dark poos. do the pinkies count towards that, too??? and i wouldn't have thought gizzards would also result in the dark poos, too. so, it may just be the food. i did look at one yesterday - was a little seedy and it was mostly the outer part that was really dark - the inside was just a dark brown. so, the outer part being really dark could just be the air hitting it for a while before i picked it out of the box and looked at it.

of the 4 weanlings i left out this morning, only one had it's head gone - all the rest were still there they did eat the pinkies tho, so, it must be a fur thing.

tonight i did the brains w/yogurt. haha! the 5 that are NOT on raw responded better than the 5 who ARE on raw! well, that's a generalized statement.

boo ate a couple tablespoons worth - with very little assistance from me. obi barely one tablespoon and i had to feed it to him (off my finger and he took some off the spoon). same for winston and he would only take it off my finger. finola ate just about a tablespoon with my assistance (mostly off the spoon). duncan didn't even barely take any off my finger. heh, finally found something he didn't want - never thought that would happen!!

taco willingly licked it off my finger as did noodle. and noodle took a little off the spoon too. chauncey wasn't as willing, yet, when i pushed it and wouldn't let him not try it, he did lick it off my finger. pixie kept coming over to sniff at the bowl - would not take it off my finger though and didn't take any out of the bowl. grizel was not interested at all.

for a first time offering it, i think that's pretty darn good!! it was only about 4 ounces worth with about 3 tablespoons of yogurt and i've got a little less than half left. all in all, that's fabulous! and the willingness from the kibble eaters was fantastic!! i'm going to start offering chunks of meat this weekend and see how they do

duncan is bothering me. he's been a bit less active and has been doing much more sleeping at playtime rather than playing. and was pretty lethargic last night and today - and is acting odd today. did not want to try the brain. it's not like him to not want food! he's always been the one that's always right there regardless of what i'm giving. i've never had a problem with him eating anything. and he's just not very responsive - usually he'll come when called and he's usually pretty bouncy and running around. didn't even want to come out of the cage for playtime and then immediately went under a blanket to go to sleep. this is so not like him - if he's still the same tomorrow, he's going to the vet.

poos in that box seem fine - no odd odors, and no odd forms. well, they did have mice, so, nice little furstick poos as a result...still, in all the time i've had duncan, he's never acted like this.

[joclyn]

finola had lost weight in january and then was lower again at this last clinic. i know the weight this past month is related to switching to raw and the whole adjustment phase of it. and she does tend to loose her winter weight before the others (also is always the first one to start the sheds both now and in the fall). still, she'd lost that weight in january and i'd put it off to the heater running a lot (very windy here and bitter cold) and causing a premature shed and loss of winter weight.

no grinding teeth or any indications of discomfort and the poos are generally normal. some very tiny - which i understand to be a normal thing for a smaller female eating raw. and, when you take into account she might not have been getting all of her portion of the food, as well as her not liking the beef or the mice (and she didn't touch either), then, less poo would be a result. although, sometimes hers are very runny - as in she leaves a small trail of it.

i was really hoping she'd like the brains - since they're a high-fat thing, i was hoping to use it to put some weight back on her. hopefully she'll be more receptive to it tomorrow on the second try with it.

and, being away from the big boys will assist with the weight as she'll not have the piggies eating her portion up. she's always been one to really graze - literally only 2 or 3 pieces of kibble at a time and then she goes off. and she's doing that with the raw, too. only eating a couple of mouthfuls and then leaving. i've been going on 1 to 1 1/2 ounces per serving (basing her total need at 2 1/2 to 3 ounces per day). i may have under done that. she is pretty active and even with the birdlike eating, she did put away a good amount of kibble per day. so, now i'm putting out 1 1/2 to 2 ounces for her at each serving.

hopefully the loss is just related to the two things i said above and there is nothing wrong with her. with regard to the adrenal, once she got on the lupron, she gained weight and held that until january. so, we'll see how she does over the next couple weeks...

at this point, i'm concerned. not overly so, though. if things don't change soon, then i'll have to investigate other reasons.

oh, forgot to mention about boo. he really doesn't need that dental now!! the raw and him actually finally starting to chew on the bones has made a world of difference with his teeth! almost all the tartar build-up is gone - even the one spot that was really bad and the reason for scheduling the dental. there are still some light black marks on the back teeth, so, i'll keep the appt (even though i know the raw alone would get rid of them within the next month). i do want her to look at the condition of his gums - that one spot of tartar was really bad and he wouldn't let me brush it, so, the gums were starting to be affected. i want to be sure there's not a lingering issue with the gums. plus, he'll be under so she can draw the blood for the tennessee panel, so, may as well get the dental done and over with at the same time and save on putting him under a second time.

[joclyn]

maybe dunc was just having a really off day or was still basically asleep when i offered the brain to him.

he was much more himself this morning - more perky and alert and did his usual 'pick-me-up-NOW-mommy' jump/dance. and he ate the lamb when i put him back in the cage. still, he didn't eat his whole meal and went off to sleep soon after munching a bit...

i'd left the weanlings in with boo/finola (since they were frozen when i'd put them out i figured their 'good' time was a bit longer than the usual 24 hours). so, what i threw out this morning was one complete one and three others without heads and most of their upper bodies. so, someone ate some during the night after they finished their gizzards...

[Heather]

Keep an eye on Dunc, those on again off again days can sometimes mean something's brewing but you know from having ferrets that these little ones can bounce back and react like nothing has happened. Just watch them. Fiona may indeed be a couple of things so watch to see if her intake picks up and if she starts to put on some weight. I did notice with Captain Jack last year that he got a bad viral infection just before Christmas and lost a lot of weight. He didn't really get that back until the fall when the weight gain started up again. He spent most of the summer looking rather thin and scraggly. He's beautiful now, with gorgeous coat and carrying just enough weight. All my guys were down in weight this month...an oz or two but down. Summer's coming even if it doesn't feel like it.
I'm glad that most of your guys like the brains that's great. You may find that they get more comfortable with the mice as they get to eat them more often. I don't know about stools after eating pinkies...I don't feed them. I only feed adults or juveniles. My guys aren't fond of pinkies though I find that my sickies often enjoy them so I will make up a special meal just for them of pinkies.
That's great that Boo's teeth are starting to clear up. I would continue with the appt only because there is often underlying tartar that the bone cannot clean, stuck up under the gum line.
Sounds like things went quite well. Great stuff
ciao

[joclyn]

i only got the pinkies as an ease-in/introduction thing and hadn't really given them to boo & finola because they were already eating the meat chunks by the time i got them in.

so, just wanting to put something out that i thought they would eat because they hadn't eaten the beef and needed something - and i figured they would eat them since they were smaller/less intimidating than the adult mice (or even the weanlings which aren't that much different in size) and don't have fur (which i thought might have been the issue with the adults).

finola just isn't using the box. that's really just not like her. she's always been perfect about it in the cage. maybe she's just not liking being away from the other three??

i have given the pinkies to the other five - mixed results. some ignored them, some licked the tone off and one put them in the food bowl with the kibble. so, in general, they all seem to know they're a food item...

dunc was back and forth today. forgot about it before - i'd had him out last night with the 3 newbies (well, they're not newbies at this point, lol, been here almost 6 months now) and he didn't even react to anyone. no domination stuff like he usually does. in fact, he didn't even bother with anyone, just went under the blanket.

had him out again tonight with the bunch of them and again he barely even noticed the three new kids were there. in fact, he ended up cuddled with taco - and no hissy fits. well, for a bit anyhoo and then they did get into it and he did go after grizel a bit after that...and then went to hide/sleep again. so, i don't know. will definitely be monitoring him closely - he did eat though and took in a bit of water.

none of them ate all that much of the lamb i put out this morning. boo/finola there was a bit less than half left and dunc/obi/winston there was an even half left. the piece of lamb was slightly more than 8 oz - so, i split it 2 and 6. and that's barely enough for a meal going by the sex & weight of everyone. unless i'm judging needs wrong...or maybe it's that there's more sunlight and spring is almost here and their appetites are going starting to go down? i know it was obi that ate most of what i put in that cage - he ate a decent amount before i left for work.

[joclyn]

well, i tried the brains again before i went to sleep. boo got comfy and lapped up almost half of what i had left from the other day such a good, good boy!!!! slow and steady eating and even with how much he took in, no vomiting. there was a nice, fairly big, kinda light and kinda runny pile in the corner of the box this morning.

finola wanted nothing to do with the brains this time. winston i was feeding by finger and he wanted nothing to do with that! grabbed the only chunk that wasn't completely cut, so, ended up dragging this long string 3 feet away and dribbled it on the blanket and the floor. he DID eat the whole thing though - so, that had to be at least an ounces worth; plus he had taken some from my finger and some off the spoon too. i think winston did bring up what he'd eaten or it could have just gone through his system faster and come out the back end (going by location of the pile, that seems more likely).

obi had some - about a half tablespoons worth. duncan again did not want it. i guess he truly doesn't like it - which i really do find myself befuddled by. he's always, always, been the 'lil piglet' when it comes to food...

i had a little left so offered it to noodle who took a good amount - both from the spoon and directly from the bowl. even chauncey had some from the spoon. both had about a tablespoonful. taco only took a few licks off my finger and seemed to have had enough although he did seem very interested in it - he had eaten some kibble right before, so, his tummy was probably full and even though he wanted more, it just wouldn't fit...

i put chicken w/bone out in the two cages and those that didn't have any of the brains ate some before i went to sleep.

i had a bad night not sleeping right (woke up every 45 minutes or so for hours and fell into a partially good sleep about when the sun was coming up) and got up very late today and had forgotten to take something out of the freezer last night, so, i gave them mice again. it's nice to have that 'cheat' there - especially since they DO like them as micecycles...

couple weanlings for boo/finola and the adults for the other three - who started on them immediately even tho they were still frozen. there was also some bit of meat on the chicken legs and i left them in also so that they could get some bone since any bones they've had available the past few days really didn't get chewed on and these had been started on so i wanted to give them a chance to work on them a bit more.

i did buy chicken feet - haven't offered them yet, though. i should take a few out of the freezer and see how they deal with them.

all poo looks normal for all of them (even dunc). boo's i consider to be normal since it was the brains he'd eaten so well

dunc/obi/winston drank water overnight - and peed it out too, lol.

i have those baby quail in the freezer. i'm going to try that this weekend. maybe just for the big boys - may put boo/finola in that cage, too, to see how they deal with the feathers. IF they eat all of the weanlings that is...if they don't, then, i'll just go with they're not quite at the spot of wanting to deal with fur or feathers yet...

[Heather]

You're doing awesome. Great with the patience too . On a note, my guys have cut wayyyy back on their food intake too. They're feeling the weather even if we're not. I noticed that Odin my late alter, is rather stinky these days and that's as sure a sign as the weight scales dropping too. I've got to start adjusting the amounts that I was feeding. I'm giving wayyy to much to the dog . Sounds like the organ meat, brains in particular is a fairly well recieved bit of food. Great .
I wonder if not using the litter box is an adrenal thing I know that Nico, who used to be religious about using the box, isn't now. He's really sick so that could be it too, but I noticed as the disease started to take it's tole on Loki that he was really sketchy about the box. Pooka still uses it in the cage but forget about using any of the boxes when she's outside the cage. I wonder if you've got it right, that she's busy setting things up with her new cagemates. I know with the girls, they use it as much as a marking thing (especially the tiny poop droplets) as a potty thing. It's certainly worth considering especially if she's not showing any other signs of illness. The joys of having a business, it seems you're always watching one or another for possible problems
ciao

[joclyn]

thurs: mice, chicken w/bone, brain
fri: lamb, rest of brain, gizzards
sat: chicken hearts, kidney
sun: quail for big boys weanlings for boo/finola will do turkeyneck for boo/finola and chicken for the other three.

the lamb is not being touched much - really not sure why. that's the last of that particular cut though - maybe cubes for stew would be better. might be that what i had wasn't moist enough to entice. really don't know as they've all liked it previously. i threw out a few ounces worth that wasn't eaten - and i'd left it out longer too hoping someone would munch.

hearts, of course, are absolutely no problem

this time i put the kidneys out on hooks - took a while for them to be eaten, most of them were though. boo ate and finola had a little. obi, winston and duncan all had some - not as much as i'd have liked though. i've left the kidney out for the moment - any that's left will get chucked before i go to bed.

oh, boy! did they like the quail - even with feathers still on! dunc went right for the feet, lol and then the head. poor obi, his kept getting stolen...i'll have a lovely mess to clean up later, i'm sure - once they get through the feathers and get to the meat inside.

i put weanlings out for boo/finola. he started in on one after a little bit - she wanted out for more playtime. later on i'm going to give her some of the canned w/brain that i froze last week.

i'll be going to the store later to stock up again. although i bought a nice variety the last time - i did not really get enough of each thing so am out of almost everything. will see if i can talk to the butcher to see if i can get more chicken hearts or maybe turkey hearts. and i want to see if they can get rabbit, too.

still keeping an eye on dunc. he's more himself - is letting me hold him and pet him though and that's not his thing...could be he's getting older or could be he's not feeling well. not sure yet. normal poo's though and he doesn't have a sick look to his eyes.

[Heather]

Sounds to me that altogether a successful bit of feeding. Have they had kidneys before? It's quite a strong smelling organ and it may take some getting used to.
I hope that Dunc is ok. How old is he? I hate it when really it's just a feeling that sets it off. A little lethargy, maybe the appetite not quite right, nothing you can really put your finger on, just a gut feeling .
ciao

[joclyn]

yes, they had kidney before - i'd mixed it with the yogurt and then pureed it. and that's what i mixed with the canned food (not the brain as i said in my last post).

yeah, that one does have a strong odor. the texture of it felt comparable to chunks of meat tho and they do seem to really like eating things off the hooks, so, thought i'd try that and see if the kidney went over better. which it did. kind of.

i'm hoping dunc just had a down day or had a touch of something and it's passed on by. i should put him out with the other bunch and see if he does his usual 'i'm dominant over you' thing. he's about 4 - dmk rescue, no info and only guesses about age and i was told he was much younger than he really is. the teeth are the tell and once they were cleaned up a bit, you could see he was older than i'd been told.

[Heather]

Those poor DMK's they've had so many health problems. I keep reading about the poor wee things on the ferrethealth board I hope that he's just having an off day or is fighting off a bit of a virus.
ciao