Joclyn's Switching Thread

[joclyn]

1. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names, ages, genders, and do they have any health problems (this is VERY important)?

boo boo, male, 4 years, adrenal, ibd (probably related to the adrenal and chicken is an issue), borderline insulinoma. has melatonine implant (1 month into it) and has had one lupron shot.

finola, female, 3 1/2 years, borderline for adrenal. started on lupron - has had one shot - and also just got the melatonin implant on tuesday.

noodle, male, 3 years, intermittent seedy, so maybe beginning ibd or something more serious.

winston, male, 2 1/2 years, healthy so far.

duncan, male, 2 years, healthy so far.

pixie, female, 1 1/2 years, healthy so far.

oberon, male, 1 year, healthy as all get out!

i'd also like to get rusty, the cat, on raw as well. he's just about 5 and has recently had a blockage - no crystals were evident which doesn't mean they weren't there somewhere...

2. What are your ferrets currently eating? Include their main diet, plus any treats or supplements (such as duk soup).

they all eat evo kibbles.

boo and finola are eating just dog red bites; oberon gets the cat and the other 4 get a mix of cat and red bites (heavier on the cat).

they also get gravy (cooked) - i make multiple versions and store cubes in freezer. turkey, chicken, lamb. have yet to make a beef, rabbit (can't find rabbit) or a duck version.

to the turkey or chicken versions i add in whole eggs, liver, heart, giblets. they always get nupro mixed in just before serving.

i also use the canned evo 95% meat and bg canned 95% meat and also a/d. again, stored cubes in the freezer.

i mix things up when serving - for balance of nutrition as well as to offer different flavors for mental stimulation.

they were getting the gravy daily - i've gotten away from that though and want to get back on the routine with it (right now it's more like a weekly thing).

i don't really do 'treats' per se - definitely no n-bones, foamy fries or bandits. they all get some bits of cooked meats and eggs and some canned fish and seafood (for those that like it) on a somewhat irregular basis, so i guess you could call it treats...and i have tried raw items as well (some went over well and others not). i also have recently gotten the dried duck and most seem to like that. no regularity to giving it though.

the cat is eating the evo cat kibble and i'm giving him canned foods - at least 1/3 a can a day. sometimes it's regular stuff like friskies or 9 lives and sometimes it's the evo 95% meat or bg 100% meat. he also gets intermittent cooked meats/seafood and canned fish. i haven't tried anything raw with him. no treats.


3. What kind of diet do you want to switch to?

raw with some prey (already dead - we'll possibly do live stuff later down the line).

4. Why do you want to switch to this more natural diet?

it's for their health. i want to give them the best i can.

5. Where/what/who got you interested in natural diets?

just having ferrets and doing research on what they need and seeing how lacking the availble kibbles are in that regard.

adopting the two old ladies...one of which had obvious insulinoma within a month of being here...certainly spurred me on to provide a better diet. been wanting to do raw since then and with various illnesses they had as well as myself, just haven't had proper time to do it...plus, what bits of intro to raw i've tried haven't gone over too well...

6. Please list the current weight for your ferret(s). Do they appear overweight? Underweight? How is there muscle tone?

boo boo, 2 3/4 pounds. looks a bit scraggly, although, it's getting better since the lupron shot. muscle tone could be better - again, that's improving since the shot.

finola, 2 pounds. has whippet/thin build, yet, still looks a bit underweight. muscle tone could be better.

noodle, 3 1/2 pounds. stocky build, has a belly, so looks a bit overweight. has fairly decent muscle - could do with a bit of improvement.

winston, 3 pounds. kind of stocky build. looks to be proper weight. is squishy - definitely needs muscle tone.

duncan, ranges from 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 pounds. right now on the lighter side - looks healthy. he gets FAT, though, and it's FAT, not muscle. definitely needs muscle tone!!

pixie, barely a pound dripping wet. looks balanced though, not underweight. needs muscle tone!! was definitely malnourished in her first six months and it has had lasting effect.

oberon, 4 1/2 pounds at the moment. just got fixed, so he's still got the no-muscle-tone-from-being-in-rutt-thing going on. looks anorexic since he dropped all his fur - you can really see how there's no tone there (the fluffy coat hid it before).

rusty, 14 pounds. looks healthy/balanced. has fairly decent muscle tone.

7. What is the condition of your ferret's teeth/gums? (can you get a picture?)

boo has some tartar and it does affect the gums - especially after brushing.

finola, some little bits of tartar.

noodle, some staining, couple spots blackish.

winston and duncan both have stains (they're dmk) and both have a few spots blackish (which the vet said won't be removable, iow, more staining). winston has a spot or two of beginning tartar.

pixie, nice and healthy.

oberon, has two spots that are grayish...one spot did have buildup and mice daily for a couple weeks cleared that up.

i can take pics once i find the charger and get the battery for the camera charged up.

8. Describe the texture/color of your ferrets coat.

those with the standard sable coloring (boo, noodle, winston, pixie) all have nice coats - shiny, soft to the touch, rich color. only exception is noodle - his coat isn't all that shiny and the color is a bit drab due to roan/silver fur.

oberon is also a sable...before his shed, his coat was a bit roughish although it had a good color to it and a bit of shine. now he's just awful - all course and sparse. he lost all guard hair on his back and a lot of the undercoat as well. head still looks nice and rich/shiny and is soft.

finola is a marked dew and her coat is a bit rougher in the summer when she has more of the dark guard hair. in winter it's really super soft/fluffy. not much sheen to it though - normally has more sheen during winter.

all of the above normally have fairly long fur regardless of weather. they do all get longer fur come winter, though.

duncan is champagne and has fairly short fur (even in winter). good color; bit of sheen to it and it's soft...is a bit rougher now than it is in winter, still soft to the touch, though.

rusty has beautiful soft and shiny fur with a nice rich color. i could pet him for hours it's that nice to the touch.

9. How often does your ferret go to the bathroom?

oh, geez. 4 in one cage - and they insist on using just ONE of the pans in the cage instead of spreading out and using both. and i have 2 in another - how am i supposed to know?

easist first:

oberon poos at least 3x a day, sometimes 4 - seems to go less when he eats mice. pees 3-4x a day, maybe more.

boo and finola - i see about 8 poo piles a day. no idea about pee - probably a little less since the litter is never overly soaked. i'd say 6 per day. before the lupron shot, boo was definitely peeing more frequently (litter was always soaked after 12 hours).

winston/duncan/noodle/pixie. i'm going to have to separate them out to tell you for sure. i do know that noodle pees/poos more than the others.

rusty before the blockage would be poo once per day/day and half and pee 3 times, maybe 4 a day. since then he poos every other day or so (with a few daily's here and there) and pee amount has varied greatly. sometimes it'll be 3x and sometimes 5x. depending on what kind of canned food and how much of it he eats affects pee quantity.

10. Does your ferret's feces and/or urine smell?

for the six, not normally.

oberon sometimes has a rich smell...not in a bad way, if you know what i mean (not infection related). doesn't seem to be associated with when he eats any raw or mice, either.

rusty's? well, you just *know* when he's gone...even though you're upstairs and his litter pan is in the basement...very odiferous. again, not in a bad way...i thought that would get better once he was on just evo - no difference

11. Smell your ferret. How strong is their odor?

with all of them, you have to have your nose within an inch or so of their fur to smell 'ferret'. none is in any way offensive. even obi doesn't have much odor- not even during the highest part of his season.

12. On a scale of 1-10, 1 being completely lethargic and 10 being "through the roof!" what is your ferret's energy level?

boo - 7-8
finola - 7-8
noodle - 3-4
winston - 9-10+++
duncan - 8-9-10+++
pixie - 7-8-9
oberon - 8-9-10+++

rusty 10++++++

13. How excited is your ferret about meal time (when fed kibble)?

if the bowl was emptied during my time away and they happen to be particularly hungry, they show an active interest...otherwise they barely notice when i add more.

only duncan will actually go over to the bowl when i fill it up...even if he's not hungry. he's just a piglet, though

they DO love their gravy!! that they jump for!! in fact, whenever they hear the microwave ding, they think they're getting gravy ;D

rusty will let me know when his bowl is empty and will sit and eat a few bites right after i refill it.

14. Have you attempted to switch from kibble to a natural diet in the past? If so, what methods have you tried. Be specific.

i have given raw items - have not actively tried to switch over completely.

chicken wings, cutlets, legs - not much interest by any of them (only duncan actually bit the wings and that was only to stash it in the litter box). beef drew some interest from winston & duncan - both did eat it after being offered a couple times. same with turkey.

ferretone did not make any difference in their interest level.

lamb went over like gangbusters!!! even finola, who hadn't previously even gone near a raw item, went right to it and ate it all...i had to go get more so boo could have some, too. he ate it, not with as much gusto as finola did. i did marinate it in 'tone, so that helped...they didn't just lick the tone off, though, they ate the meat. they will eat mice.

both winston and duncan fight over the lamb...chow down like no tomorrow. and they don't need the 'tone enticement, either.

neither noodle or pixie have shown anything more than a pass-it-by interest in anything raw - even when they first got here and pixie was so young (about 8 months) she still had no interest.

oberon LOVES mice! likes lamb too. haven't tried other meats with him yet.

15. What other information about your ferret(s) would you like to share?


noodle and pixie were initially a bit resistant to (cooked) gravy - once they got a taste of it, they were okay with it. they have shown no interest in any raw items. little interest in cooked items. no interest in the dried duck. so, basically, they're picky.

boo and finola may be a bit picky, although, i know they'll take lamb. finola has no interest in mice...boo is starting to gain interest and will grab onto them sometimes - hasn't actually eaten any part of one yet. so, bit of pickiness with both. they do love the gravy, though.

winston and duncan have interest and will try things...they like the mice and they do eat them...not sure who finishes them off, though. i've been giving them while they're in playtime and they fight for them...even though each has one. duncan eats the tails and winston will eat the heads...i put them in the cage when i put them up for the night and they're gone in the morning, so, one or both is finishing them...

oberon should not be too much, if any, problem. he had raw and prey as a kit and i've continued with prey regularly and with raw intermittently.

rusty may be a problem. he's about 5 now and, although not a particularly picky kibble-eater (i've always switched off kibble brands to avoid picky-eater cats), he's been eating just the one kibble brand for more than half a year now. i never gave canned to him too often and that's bad on my part...dunno why as any other cats have always had it every other day...anyhoo, since the blockage the vet said i had to give it at least every other day. he's not taking to it too well - no matter what flavor or style. he will eat it if i let the dry stuff be eaten off and he's hungry...i don't want to do that constantly though!!

he does seem to like beef and turkey flavors pretty well, though.

16. If you can, please post a clear photograph of EACH of your ferrets directly below:

i can post older pics...fresh shots will have to wait until i find the charger. i'm assuming you want full-body shots rather than just face shots?? or do you want both??

17.

a.) Do you understand that by starting this thread you commit to posting updates on the progress of your ferret(s) diet switch atleast every other day?**

b.) Do you understand that if you will be away from your computer for an extended period of time you will need to exchange phone numbers (or email addresses if you don't feel comfortable exchanging numbers)via private message with your assigned mentor, so that we can monitor your progress and ensure your ferret's saftey during the switch?

c.) Do you understand that any threads that have not been updated in for more then a week (with no explaination as to why you are absent) will result in the deletion of the thread?***

**Note 1: If you are unable to make it to a computer (such as on weekends) please indicate below so we know whether you just dont have computer access or if you have gone MIA.

***Note 2: If you would like to try the switch again and you are committed to making regular updates you ARE welcome to restart your thread. Failure to provide regular updates will result in the deletion of your thread.

as i posted on the other thread, i probably won't be able to post every couple of days...i will post full details of everything, for every day from last posting, when i do post. i can guarantee at least once per week posts.

[Heather]

Hi and welcome to the mentoring program
You are well on your way, great stuff. Over the next couple of days look at some of the things that have been done and see if anything might appeal to your style of feeding. I will take you and your furbabies on and we will see about getting your little ones switched over (kitty included ). Please have patience as the kitty may or may not be into this at all. Switching ferrets is usually easier , just more time consuming . It will be the numbers that get to you as they will all have different ideas as to when they want to go to their raw diet I will introduce myself in a later post, as I've presently got a bunch of little furbrats bouncing around telling me their food bowl is empty and momma has been on the computer long enough
ciao

[joclyn]

hi, heather!! thanks for the assist!! (you may be sorry that you took us on though - i'll be asking a couple tons of questions

look at some of the things that have been done and see if anything might appeal to your style of feeding

uhh, look where??? which forum??

to be honest, i haven't tooled around the site too much...so i have no idea where you want me to look for ideas about feeding 'style'!!

also, is there an area that lists balanced diets; nutrition provided by specific food items; daily requirements of nutrients for balanced nutrition; daily requirement for amounts to feed for proper nutrition?

see? i started already...

[Heather]

Ask away
Look through the threads right here in the mentor program. Just pick one that might interest and read through. Each one has the same form that you had to fill out which will give you an idea as to what the ferrets were like when they started and you can read what questions they asked, what methods they used...tons of information. Nutritional balancing is done over time, not necessarily on a daily basis. We're going to try and get your furbabies to eat a minimum of 3 different types of proteins, bone, offal, and possibly some veggy matter for your IBD furbabies (I've found that this appears to be very beneficial for IBD ferrets and it doesn't hurt the rest of the furbabies either)
Hi
I'm Heather, and we're going to be working together for the next little while trying to convince your furbabies to change to a healthier diet
I've been feeding a raw/natural diet for a little over 10 yrs. I have a small private rescue/sanctuary, just outside of Toronto, Canada where all ferrets turned into me are switched immediately over to a raw diet that consists of ground raw/whole meats or frankenprey/ and prey diet. At present every ferret eats this full range of diets. I don't keep kibbles in the house. All my furbabies are free roaming and have access to an outdoor play area that they can access at will. At present there are 16 little fuzzbutts who call this their permanent home. They range in ages of about 1 yr to my little senior citizen, Babushka who is over 10 yrs (she by the way has been my biggest raw switch challenge, which had me at times wondering why I was doing this to her) Now completely switched and putting on a beautiful dark black coat, teeth that are now nicely cleaned up, and she actually has a lot of fun investigating the house (she used to do nothing but sleep when she first was turned in). She has made me aware that every ferret no matter how old, can get a new lease on life by eating a species appropriate diet
As your furbabies already have health issues, there will be no witholding of food to make them hungry. We will go at this very softly.
This method is my favourite switching tool and one that I've had the most success with.
You can try to get them to eat a raw soup immediately. You will need a blender/food processor, and the following raw items:

8 oz raw chicken thigh meat (including skin and fat)
1 tsp of crushed eggshell powder (take a raw eggshell. Rinse it out. Let it dry. Crush to powder)
1 raw chicken heart
1/2 raw chicken liver
Water (use more to make it soupier, less to make it thicker)
** I noticed that you already use a soupy mix, you can add either chunked or ground meats to your existing soupy if you wish.
Blend ingredients together. Some prefer it at room temp. Try putting a dollop of "soup" onto your ferret's nose and they probably will lick it off. I use my finger. Sometimes this takes a little bit trying to convince them that you're not trying to poison them I find within a very short time they're licking this off my finger. When I see that they're willing to eat freely off my finger then I use a small spoon to try and get them to eat from that. Try to get them eating the soupy on their own. It might pique their interest. If they absolutely refuse to try the soupy, suck some of it up into the syringe. Use the guide below to get them eating the soup from the syringe:

forum.ferret.com/tm.asp?m=27179

I'm not a big fan of syringe feeding and don't use it, but I feel that you should be aware of all your options. My biggest fear when feeding through a syringe is aspiration.

Most ferrets will willingly eat the food once they actually TASTE it, so the only struggle you *should* encounter is them not wanting to taste it. Don't be surprised if your furbabies' initial reaction is to gag, spit and look at you like, what are you trying to poison me with But don't let them get away with it The hardest part is to insist and be consistent. Please also be aware that after years of kibbles they aren't aware that what you're offering them is indeed food. Once they willingly eat from the syringe, or your finger and spoon, work to try and get them eating this out of a dish or plate.

Each time you make your soupy, use a little less water to make it thicker/chunkier. Replace soup with fresh soup every 4-6 hours. You can make a large batch if you like and freeze into ice cubes or cupcake trays. Then you just thaw a portion and serve. OR you can put a frozen "cube" into their bowl and let it slowly thaw.

This is a good way to slowly ease them into wet foods. I use this second method to switch all my furbabies and I've personally switched approximately 20 ferrets of my own in the last few years.
I will let you read through and if you have any questions please ask. I will be out of town tomorrow but I will be back and going through my emails tomorrow night.
Good luck
ciao

[joclyn]

haven't had time to do much reading...did a little though and bookmarked a couple threads...

i opted to get some goat - since i found a butcher and they now have extended hours since they're selling prepared food as well as the deli and grocery stuff. so, i got a sandwich for myself and some raw goat for them.

oberon had no problem with it; neither did duncan and winston. didn't really have a chance to offer it to any of the others.

anyhoo, oberon will not have a problem going raw since he was eating raw at the breeders. so i need a basic diet schedule for him. portion sizes as well as mixture of meat/boney/organ/mice.

i doubt i'll have too much issue with duncan & winston, either.

the others will be a rougher time of it, i'm sure.

i'm thinking to reconfigure the fn cages and split them in pairs or just smaller groups instead of having the one big group and the two oldsters. and oberon is still by himself...waiting for hormones to go down some more and he'll be worked in with the main group.

i can work with them better that way during transition - kind of do a bit of switching around who's in which cage depending on where they are with the switching. they can still interact during playtimes, so i won't lose integration.

the only thing with that is that i have noticed that there is more interest, by those with little interest, when they see someone eating something. they are more likely to at least investigate...if left to their own devices, they will not even go near the offered food, so, feeding during playtime has it's plusses.

since there are chicken issues, and just the fact that no one has responded to the raw chicken offered (well, only duncan did), any time you mention chicken, i'll be subbing turkey they've all responded much better to that.

which brings up liver. if they have a chicken issue, is giving chicken liver all that much of a problem?? don't know if i can get hold of turkey livers regularly. and i do already put the chicken liver into the gravy - i never do add all that much, though, and it's mixed with other meat, so, more than a bit different than just giving a whole liver with their meal (as i'm assuming it'll be with the raw).

i have frozen mice on hand. that is a full/balanced meal, correct?? not sure what size they are considered (the breeder gave them to me and i haven't yet ordered any). they're not pinkies...guess they're full size? do they come in anything other than pinkie and full?? when i give them, i usually do one. is that enough for a full meal for a 4 1/2 ferret? what about a 3 pounder?

when i gave them the goat, i just cut up a bit to offer them...

since obi liked it so much (ate some immediately and then started stashing), i cut up more for when i put him up for the night. had no idea about portion size, so i just did an amount comparable to a mouse. he seemed pretty hungry in the morning, though and i've not noticed that when he gets a mouse at bed time. would that be because the mouse has the fur and bones to deal with?

i've heard people say that the kibble shouldn't be available if they have raw available. as in, they shouldn't have raw and kibble at the same time since the body processes them differently. true or false??

[Heather]

That's great you've had a couple of takers on the raw...yes, ferrets do indeed do the monkey see monkey do thing very well. I had a lot harder time switching my first ferrets over to raw than I have with any of the newbies...but then, I'm getting the knack of it by now I've switched over 30 ferrets of my own and mentored a good number
Ok....the chicken thing. You will have to do the trial and error thing with the chicken livers. If they don't tolerate chicken (we're talking raw and not kibble right??) the liver may or may not work. You can always substitute beef or pork liver if you like too...both of those are easily found or at least I can get them at the local supermarket. Turkey is fine...you might also try quail too. My guys love it and it means that the bones can be eaten in their entirety, a really good consumable meal.
Mice come in a wide variety of sizes. From little pinkies (my guys view those as tidbits to the full sized mealdeal . Check out rodentpro or haretoday and take a look at what is offered. I understand that the product is very good, unfortunately I cannot get it up here but I've heard some decent feedback on their product...a bit pricey but good. Even if you're not going to use them, it will give you an idea as to what you can ask for elsewhere.
Quantity to be fed is very much dependent on the ferrets. I've got some of the older guys who don't eat huge amounts but some of the younger ones who really tuck it away and it's not necessarily size of the ferret. I'd love to say an oz for this weight and 2 oz for this one but I cannot. It's very much a trial and error. If your young fellow is really hungry feed him a bit more. If you see him doing a lot of stashing and you're finding a lot of meats..then you're feeding too much. You're going to see them eat more in the fall, when the weather is colder, depending on how much they ate the day before...the list goes on. I know that in around Aug my guys start really packing away the food and I feel I might as well be feeding a large dog instead of 17 little ferrets I find that mice seem to stay with them more than the frankenprey (meat and bone cuts). I agree with your statement that the bone and fur slows the digestive process a little and allows them to feel fuller...it also allows their dinner to stay longer and therefore more is actually utilized by their little bodies. This is one of the reasons why when people feed ground that I advise them to add a bit of frozen veggie matter to their mix. It slows down the process just a little allowing for better absorbtion. That's why IBD ferrets actually benefit from having veggies in their raw ground mix. While we're talking about speed of process and absorbtion, I noticed that you mentioned kibble and raw mixing. Raw processes much faster through their system than kibble, it's also better absorbed and carries more moisture. Kibble is processed much slower, is poorly absorbed and actually uses water from their system to help their bodies process their food. That is why kibble fed animals (not just ferrets) are always in such danger of dehydration. Raw fed animals have a much easier time of it and that is why they recouperate much faster from an illness because dehydration isn't necessarily a key component of the illness. As kibble and meat is processed at a different rate, these two meals should be served seperately. The kibble will actually slow the digestive process of the meat and allows the meat to actually slow to the point of allowing bacteria build up in their system. This isn't guaranteed and you will encounter people who feed both, and say that nothing ever happens. Consider it a word of warning, not a dire threat. It does have a tendency to create tummy upsets though.
I think I've covered your questions for now Talk at you later.
ciao

[joclyn]

ahh, good to know my thinking is on track!! even if i didn't completely understand the 'why' of it. thanks for clarifying!!!!

i have been removing the kibble when giving the mice at bedtime...playtimes they only ever have water available, so giving raw or mice then is not an issue.

so, for solid meats, i DO need to offer more than when giving mice. obi went right to the bowl and ate when i filled it with the kibble after having the solid meat...after the mice he checked the bowl after i filled it; didn't eat anything right away though.

for chicken issues, i'm referring to kibble.

i do put the liver in the gravy which is cooked. since too much liver can be an issue, i don't put too much in. i'm actually out of my homemade gravy at the moment and have been using the canned stuff to make up a quick version. since that's already cooked, to an extent, i'm just mixing various flavors to make up servings and not really adding in anything else other than pumpkin.

so, not having my usual homemade stuff, i don't know if the liver in it is an issue for boo. i won't have time to make any, either, for another couple of weeks. we'll see how it goes then...

the vet did say that ibd issues can occur with adrenal. he'll be getting the second lupron shot next week - so i can ask her about whether i should try giving chicken stuff again (since the lupron does seem to be making a difference for him). maybe the ibd symptoms are disappearing due to the lupron moreso than the red bites kibble...(he'd had a prolapsed rectum and that didn't completely clear up until after the lupron shot and he'd been on the red bites for a couple months at that point).

adrenal is not something i have experience with - have to do more research on it...

even though chicken is readily available, i may just use turkey instead. boo had no interest in the raw chicken (basically none of them did). i tried wings, thighs, breast meat...even doused it with tone and that didn't even spark too much interest. i should try again though now that they have had some positive responses to other types of raw meats maybe they'll be more interested.

yes, quail has gone over well!! i've only given the canned before grain 100% meat though...so, the real thing will be a winner, i'm sure!! and that, being whole, would have the liver to give.

quail shouldn't be an issue like chicken. cornish game hens might be since they are actually young chickens. well, it'll be a trial & error thing, i guess, when it comes to allergy issues...would raw be less likely to cause issue over cooked???

the mice i have are probably from rodentpro...i'm at a point where i need to order, too - only have a few left. yeah, i know price is high. i have the ability to order a large quantity because i can store it (have a big freezer), so that will cut down on the cost since i won't have to order too frequently.

yes, in fall they do start to bulk up - even when eating kibble. most of mine actually start the process in mid- to late-august.

obi will be the odd-one out though. he just shed a couple weeks ago (as opposed to everyone else who was done by end of may) and dropped down to his summer weight...so, being so late at it, he'll probably be late bulking up, too.

[Heather]

In my experience an allergy to chicken kibble and sometimes even cooked chicken doesn't necessarily cross over to raw chicken...I don't know quite what they do with the kibbles but some poor little carnivores have a devil of a time with it. You may actually find that once they start sampling meats, they may be better inclined to try some meats that they've in the past refused to try. Of course being little ferts they may just not too.
You will have to tell me how you make up your soupy, to give me an idea as to what your guys are eating Do your guys have kibble when they're in their cages?
I will check in with you later this evening
ciao

[joclyn]

i don't know if you're a member of ferretopia or ferret village...both sites have my recipe for gravy. the one on ferretopia is more up-to-date than what's on ferret village

here's a link to my post on ferretopia ferretopia.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ducksoup&action=display&thread=4143 i think guests can read posts - not sure though and let me know if you can't and i'll post the recipe here.

i basically do what bob church does with his 'gravy' except i DO NOT put cooked bones in it!! cooked bones are bad!! the only time i ended up with cooked bones in the gravy was the time i forgot i had the broth going and ended up cooking it for about 16 hours. couldn't take the bones out because they became mush after being cooked that long.

my vets were more than impressed with the recipe, and, i have to say that my lil bear lived 2 1/2 years with insu (and very little pred) eating this along with the evo kibble. and would have continued on if simba hadn't gotten sick and passed...she had ibd and by splitting out the chicken/turkey and doing separate batches of each as well as lamb, she lived a good year and half on it (wasn't eating kibble any longer). so, i'm doing something right with it

should be easy to convert it to a raw version, i'd think.

i'd think it's a matter of the excessive processing to make kibble that does something to the chicken...although, the canned a/d and z/d is also overly processed chicken...and that doesn't bother those with chicken issues. so, i don't know. eating it raw, hopefully, isn't an issue. i wouldn't necessarily give chicken...cornish hens are ideal though (bones and all are edible). i don't know anyone who feeds raw and has someone with ibd to ask about it, though. so, we'll try it and see how it goes.

right now, they always have kibble in their cages - playtimes, being communal, there's only water available...

if playtime is more than 4 hours at a shot, i put them in the cage for a bit so they can snack if they want to. plus, if i'm going to give gravy, i'll do that during playtime, so, that usually covers food during extended times out-of-cage.

now, for feeding raw, in nature they wouldn't necessarily eat every day and/or multiple times a day...so, how's that dealt with?? just do feedings a couple times a day or once a day or what?

had to laugh when i saw this:

Of course being little ferts they may just not too.

i misread it as:

Of course being little farts they may just not too.

[Heather]

either way works (out of the quote...ferts farts... )
I think that your soupy (it wouldn't allow me to log on without signing up first) will work very well as a switching devise as your guys already love it. Now, in my opinion the easiest way to work this is to use ground meats to start...maybe even ground commercial if you want (just saves you a lot of work and it's already balanced), it also means that they're starting with eating whole ground bones too. All you have to do is start adding very small amounts of raw meat to your soupy. As they start enjoying the little bits of raw in your soupy and eating it without problems then you add some more until you've got more raw than soupy. Any time during that process, you can also start adding chunked meats as well. Really easy ...with the cooperation of the little farty ferts . You can also use very fine sliced up chunks of meat if you want too.
You seem to have a good handle on what your guys need. As far as IBD ferts...each one is different. Ghenghis is my present IBD fert....he's doing well and maintaining good weight with little to no problems and being treated using diet. He's very active and full of trouble. Mischief was my first and at 8 yrs old when he was turned in, he had some terrible times. I finally found myself working with the techs at Ambertech, a couple of homeopaths, one from Australia and another from Quebec. We managed Mischief's, ulcer and then his IBD without allopathic interferrence. He survived quite comfortably for another 2 yrs with only 3 outbreaks. He eventually passed on when he developed cancer of the spleen . Aremis, was my next venture into the whole IBD thing. He was treated naturally until he became very ill and he was diagnosed with lymphomas. He continued his raw diet, (in fact ate a mouse the day before he passed on) for another year, using sulcrate and pred.
Most people feed their raw fed ferts 2x or 3x of day. My guys (because they eat from the cats' bowl) have food down all the time. I find they don't necessarily stash as bad that way...Don't get me wrong they still stash, that is what a ferret does. I found Odin's stash the other day in the play yard outside...little bum had stashed 2 mice that he killed and then taken them outside and stashed it in one of the burrows in the sand box. They always get eaten...I wouldn't have found them except Thor pulled one out and was eating it when Lady "B" and Ghenghis came on the scene and roughed him up for it. They then took off back inside, with their prize I might add (fighting and screaming at each other) and he just went back into the burrow and pulled out another mouse You've got to love them
Let me know how you want to start them and we will see if we can convince your furry little band of miscreants to all eat the raw diet at the same time
ciao

[joclyn]

there's been ANOTHER ground beef recall down here...

so, commercial ground isn't something i'm going to dare use. i rarely eat ground meat myself (just not a beef person in general and i really don't like hamburgers at all) and i don't trust what's actually in the pre-ground stuff...

i don't have meat grinder...i do want to get one though, because i do like things like kielbasa and italian sausage and would be interested in making my own...the plus being i can use it for grinding the kiddies stuff, too. using the blender will be more hassle than it's worth, so, i'll have to locate a good quality hand grinder

i don't know how much ground stuff i'll need for them, though. i can easily cut small chunks to mix into the gravy. or just offer the chunks on a plate like i've been doing.

getting onto a routine with it is what i need to do...it's been so intermittent

i'd really like to get oberon started. he's not going to be an issue at all. he's still in a separate cage for the moment, so, will be good to get him situated and i can work with winston/duncan and further their introduction and, hopefully, by the time they're ready to go completely, it'll be about time that i've got the baby integrated during playtimes and i can just cage them together and that will help move d&w over completely (fert see; fert do).

and then i can focus more on the others...would still be doing intro to various things in the mean time...

saw in another post a comment that cooked-til-past-dead bones are okay to use...when they become mushy they're not an issue with splintering?? if true, that's great because i'd still like to use the broth and i need to cook the bones til dead for it and it'd be nice to not have to waste the bones...

i'll copy my gravy recipe in the next post.

[joclyn]

i used to do a mix of chicken and turkey until someone developed ibd. now i do the different meats in individual batches and freeze in ice cube trays and then mix/match or just use one type when feeding.

i always make extra broth and reserve some so i can freeze that in cubes, too, and then i use that to supplement and/or thin out the gravy cubes (they do dehydrate a bit in the freezer).

my basic recipe:

meat (usually i get dark meat pieces with the skin on and bones in), eggs, livers, hearts/giblets, nupro powder, water.

i split the packages of liver and hearts/giblets up into smaller portions and keep them frozen until in need them for a batch. it's one or two of each for a batch - i'll use more if i make a big batch. since i do each meat type seperately now, i don't make big batches and every other one i will skip the organ meats - don't want them getting too much.

i usually use two eggs in a batch - shells, too, except for the ones with ibd or ulcers. they don't get the shells because it'll aggravate their condition.

chicken and turkey i will use both the drumsticks and thighs. i rarely see turkey legs with both parts, you can get the chicken with both fairly easily though (and that's a little cheaper than buying two seperate things. i also make lamb - i'll get the shoulder portion and/or the cubes for stew. have yet to make a rabbit or duck version...and really no need with the evo canned 95% meat...

if using poultry, leave the skin on when cooking the meat and use it when you puree. if using red meat, leave any fat on for cooking and use it when you puree.

i usually do a half dozen pieces of each legs/thighs for chicken and turkey is usually three or four legs and one package of thighs which is usually six. you can also use a whole roaster chicken or turkey...obviously if you're using the whole thing, bake it first and then remove the meat from the bones and then crack them and put in water and cook a broth. you'd do that with duck, too, unless you can get it in pieces (i've never seen it in pieces though, only whole in the frozen section).

the lamb will be one shoulder chop or one breast piece and a small package of cubes (about one pound).

once i get to rabbit, i'll use the whole thing. same for the duck. well, since i like both, i'll be snitching some for myself first...either is available here. just not all the time though and i haven't seen it in the stores for a while...

so, to make the gravy:

cover the meat with water and boil (slow, rolling boil) until the meat is just about done and then remove the meat from the bones and set the meat aside (in the fridge). i crack the bones to expose the marrow then throw the bones back in the water and cook it to death for a few hours (at least three)...just on a low simmer. that makes a nice rich broth.

i also put the eggs in at some point so they cook - if you put them in at the start, remove them after the water has been at a slow boil for about 10-15 minutes. if you put them in with just the bones on simmer, give them 20-25 minutes and then remove.

the organs i cook in a seperate pot (just enough water to cover and then slow boil until just done) and then dice them up and run them through the blender by themselves - the hearts and giblets are pretty tough and take a few runs through to get pureed. i mix them in later on when pureeing the meat/broth.

while the broth is cooking, i'll remove cartiledge and small bones from the meat and tear or cut it in chunks. leave the skins - lots of good fats there. the eggs get shelled and cut into quarters and i'll mash the shells a bit.

once it's done, i strain the broth to remove the bones and any bits of cartiledge. if you've cooked it long enough, the bones turn to mush and will fall apart if you try to use tongs to remove them. so, i use a strainer over my smaller stock pot (or use a big bowl or rubbermaid container if you don't have an additional pot). pour it in slowly and most of the bones and just about all of the small bits will stay in the bottom of the pot - the strainer catches anything that falls over the edge of the pot.

i have a blender - a food processor works just as well. i take small portions of the meat, skin, organs, eggs/shells and broth and run it through on mix and then puree. not for long, just 10-15 seconds for each setting and i usually fill the blender jar halfway, maybe a little more for each bunch. once it's done, i put it in a large bowl and continue on with the rest. doesn't matter if you do each bunch equally...the first go-round is just to get everything a bit pureed and blended.

once it's all done, i mix the bowl really well to distribute the different portions so that it's all basically the same consistancy. this is also the point where i add in the nupro - i basically just eye-ball it...i keep it in a shaker bottle because i always add more when i give it to the kiddies, so, i just do a few shakes. maybe a few more if it's a larger than usual batch.

then i run the mix through the blender a second time. depending on thick/thin it is to begin with will depend on how much more of the broth i add for the second go-round. most of my kids like it pretty thin - like a gruel - they don't like it thick or chunky. so, i really make sure to puree it well on the second round. depending on how thick it is to begin with, will say how long i use the puree setting. usually it's not more than 20 seconds for each bunch.

this time around i put the finished portions in the stock pot (as the bowl is filled with the first go-round stuff). once i've got it all done, i give it one last mix with a spoon and then:

i freeze it in ice cube trays. once it's frozen, i store the cubes in plastic zip bags in the freezer. i do the broth in the cubes, too...only i do that half full as that's about all that's needed to thin out/rehydrate the gravy enough when reheating it.

since this stuff is so fatty, i went to the dollar store and bought a dozen trays just to use for freezing the gravy. you can only get so much of the fat off the plastic and the trays are a pain to wash and i don't want gravy-flavored ice cubes...

serving size is one cube gravy and one half-cube broth, per serving, per ferret. that's more than enough for the petstore kids. the mckay kids, the younger two (duncan) especially, are absolute pigs and they get three cubes gravy and two half cubes broth. they (duncan) would eat more if i give them the opportunity...percy does pretty well with two cubes at a time, too. especially if he's having a flare-up and is off the kibble.

at serving time, i sometimes add other things. depends on what's going on.

i keep canned pumpkin frozen by the teaspoonful (heaping, so it's almost two, actually). i put it on cookie sheets lightly sprayed with non-stick spray and freeze and then remove and store in plastic zip bags. one teaspoon per ferret in a serving. they get that once weekly. i'll add it daily if they've gotten into something and i think there's a possible blockage.

i also do canned foods frozen. the a/d stuff from the vet and the evo 95% meat stuff. i mix the can in a bowl to get it broken up and the liquids mixed in evenly and again with the cookie sheet lightly sprayed and then portioned by tablespoon.

the ice cubes are about a tablespoons worth, so, if i want to add in the canned stuff instead, they're about the same size of a portion.

i mainly use the canned foods with the ibd kids. i will sometimes add it in for the others to give them variety. variety is good because different meats give different nutrition, so mixing it up keeps things balanced properly.

i've also mixed in plain yogurt that has the active cultures (teaspoonful) or heavy cream (teaspoonful). yogurt is really good to begin with and especially after they've been on antibiotics as it helps get the digestive system back on track a little quicker. the cream will add calories if you need to get some weight back on someone who's been sick.

either one of those will be added at least once daily for about a week. usually, if they've been sick, they're getting the gravy twice a day and sometimes i'll add it in during both servings.

also, if someone is sick, i will usually use two cubes broth so that the gravy is a bit thinner - which makes it easier for them to lap up if they don't have too much energy and it is also easier on the stomach if it's really thinned out.

i always, always, always do a shake of nupro at serving time, too. that started as a way to hide the metro (it works really well) and now, they're just used to it, so i just always add it.

i keep it in an old spice jar, so it has the holes in the top...one shake is about 1/4 (if that) of the scoop that comes with the nupro...so not enough to do harm even though i do put some in when i do the gravy in the first place.

i also squirt on a bit of ferretone sometimes when serving...i don't add it in when i make the gravy as i just don't want them to get too much of it.

most of the meds these little ones need to take on occassion can easily be hidden in the gravy and that's just SO much easier than trying to force something that tastes really nasty with a syringe.

i started off fully cooking the meat and have gradually cooked it less and less...i'm working up to raw. that's just me though.

it's good to have them familiar with gravy (or soup) long before you actually need it. this stuff has literally saved my kids from dying on more than one occassion. i only had to force it once (back when lil bear was first diagnosed with insulinoma) and i never want to do that again...it's too traumatic for them - and me. if they're sick already you really don't want to add to the stress.

so, get them used to it when they're well, and give it to them on a regular basis (weekly, daily, every two weeks, whatever) and, when the time comes that they NEED to eat it, they will. willingly.

[joclyn]

after a few replies, i realized i'd forgotten something, so i added another post:

oh!! i forgot about the banana!!!

lol, i keep that frozen too...over-ripe banana cut into 1/4 inch slices and then they are halved and frozen...one half in a serving to easy tummy discomfort.

the slippery elm bark i have been trying to get. the woman at the health food store was supposed to order it and call me when it came in...she didn't call and i haven't been able to get over to the store before it closes (short hours). i need that for percy.

you use it all the time though? i guess i could do that, too - it's not going to hurt anything.

the yogurt does the same as the probio and the nupro has active cultures in it too. i may look into the probio, though, i usually end up chucking some of the yogurt and i hate to waste stuff.

when i had the four all together, i did it in little tubs. then simba got the ibd and couldn't have the chicken, so i started the cubes and the separate batches.

now, the cubes still work because i've got three groups: boo/finola, duncan/winston and percy.

percy has ibd, so no chicken for him - and all the extra's to ease things for him. i like to give variety anyway (who wants to eat the same thing every day) and with the ibd, changes are just about mandatory because of flare-ups, so the cubes just work perfectly with that.

i'm still hoping i can get the other four all together - some day. then i can go back to the tubs for them. i suppose i could still do it in tubs and then just seperate it for serving.

they DO need to be familiar with this stuff...i will NEVER forget trying to get lil bear to eat it. it was just a traumatizing for me as it was for her. and she NEEDED it so i HAD to force it. i never, ever want to do that again!

so, when i took in the mckay kids, they weren't here a week before they were introduced to it. the babies were easy (duncan). babies will usually eat just about anything you offer...and duncan is an absolute pig, so he was no problem winston took a few times and now he eats it up. percy was a little ambivielent...he did try it though the very first time it was offered - not bad for an older guy.

he's funny. if i don't put enough nupro in, he gives me this look...he'll still eat it though.

it just made sense to me to use the broth for reconstitute/thinning out instead of water. why thin down all the good nutrition you take all that time to make with water?

even when i make chicken soup for myself, i cook the bones really long...you get a rich, flavorful and nutrient-filled broth for the soup. more flavor in the broth means less salt is needed and we don't need any more salt - we get way too much of it to begin with.

[Heather]

Wow you've been busy
Awesome stuff, huge amounts of useful information. One thing, slippery elm should only be used for 2 or 3 weeks and then they have to come off for about a week or so. I use pumpkin when I have to take them off slippery elm. You can also use pumpkin and squash instead of slippery elm and then you don't have to switch off. I save the slippery elm for attacks and use the pumpkin and squash for maintenance. On this part though do what you find works for your guys. IBD is such an individual trigger and unfortunately, it also seems to have other triggers too...even stress (that we don't know about sets them off) With Ghenghis I've given up trying to track his triggers, I've found that by adding pumpkin to his diet on a regular basis, I can control his low end outbreaks and it can amount to only one bad poopy in a day. I watch him closely for tooth grinding and other physical signs that show me he's in trouble.
You can if you want just gradually cook your meats less and less and work them to eating raw that way. It's entirely up to you, you've got a good idea as to what you need to do with your furbabies. You're going to do just fine You've got an awesome idea as to what your guys need. I will check in tomorrow and see how you're doing
ciao

[joclyn]

i never did get hold of the slippery elm, so never used it. i'll keep that info on hand though!!

a friend gave me some enteric support that i haven't started using yet...it's all holistic. i'll post the brand name later (can't remember what it is, atm).

i was making the gravy a little less cooked each time. hadn't quite gotten to completely raw though.

for oberon, i do want to just get him on raw. so, just need guidance on what is a balanced diet for a weeks time. balanced as in getting the right nutrients in the correct amounts (is there a list somewhere of min/max of what's needed? ) as well as balanced when it comes to bone/muscle/organs.

i had him out for playtime with winston and duncan for a bit last night. it went very, very well he was polite and even a bit playful with them. duncan is still under the impression that he's going to be alpha over obi.

i REALLY have to get a pic of dunc on top of obi's back - with his back paws hanging off into nothingness (because obi's so long and big) and he's holding on for dear life with the front pair because obi just takes off like it's totally normal to have another fert on your back. it's too, too funny - duncan trying to get a good grip on obi's neck or ear...

when it comes to my kiddies, i'm nothing if not thorough - as you can see from the way i make my gravy...