Joclyn's Switching Thread

[joclyn]

to recap the past few days:

fri: gizzards, lamb w/o bone
sat: mice, chicken w/bone
sun: chicken w/bone, turkey w/o bone,
mon: chicken w/bone, chicken heart, lamb some w/bone/some w/o
tues: chicken w/bone, liver w/yogurt, ? maybe turkey w/o bone or maybe the steak (no bone) or gizzards

well, well!! i just did 5 oz of liver and put a couple tablespoons of yogurt and let it sit and then put it in the mini chopper to almost completely puree it. also defrosted some of the gravy i had.

tried just the liver/yogurt mix first. boo, finola, oberon and duncan went at it. winston licked at it and repeated his 'trying-to-get-away' routine. obi ate some - not really all that much. duncan sat and ate it well, finola had some, boo kept going at it

i helped finola a bit - dipped my finger in and used the spoon, so, she ended up basically getting just about a whole meal. obi was more willing to lick it off my finger than eat on his own although . he did eat a fairly good amount straight off tho, and he did go back to the dish for more after i gave him some off my finger, so, not concerned about him.

i mixed some of it with the gravy and put some tone on it and winston almost about half of that. was mostly gravy, tho. i did get him to take a bit more of the liver from my finger tho after he'd had it mixed with the gravy. so, for him, that's the way to go for the moment until he gets more accustomed to it - mixed with something else.

surprise!!!

pixie and noodle wanted out, so i put them out. and offered the liver/yogurt. pixie sniffed at it. took a little off my finger. noodle took a good amount off my finger and then ate from the dish!!!!! he even ended up taking in a couple of small chunks, too!!

the dish with the liver mixed with gravy that winston didn't finish i offered to grizel and taco. she ate about 2 teaspoonfuls. she's barely a pound, so, for her, that's a full meal. taco ate about 1 teaspooful. whatever was left i put in with chauncey and he finished it off!! that was about 2 teaspoonfuls - almost a full meal for him. very pleased that the 3 newbies ate it even if it was mixed with the gravy! forgot to give pixie some of the mix, tho - that she might have eaten.

i am really pround of boo - he was at the dish almost the whole time i was fiddling with others to make sure they had some. he ate enough (for his size) that i'd consider it a full meal!!

i know the heart is rich, so the chicken hearts are really perfectly sized...especially since they're all different, i can match to size of fert w/o having to mess with cutting them up. i gave them last night.

no one stashed. they all chowed down and finished everything. not one bit left anywhere!! i kind of expected that - i know hearts are really good.

since they weren't nearly big enough to be a full meal, i also put out the lamb and that wasn't really touched all that much (except by obi and duncan; both of whom are bigger) overnight. i did put out a small piece of chicken this morning and left whatever lamb was still there (breast piece with bone, they'd finished all the meat without bone). didn't even see the chicken bone when i got home from work. chucked the piece of lamb.

can't depend on the packages to have a decent amount of hearts in with the gizzards, so i guess i'll have to get some other kind of heart, too.

since the liver wasn't enough for a meal, i'll put out something. gizzards probably. i don't want to do something with bone again.

is it okay for me to try small bits of the kidney and the brain so soon after the liver?? it wasn't really a full meal (except for the couple). and what i mean is in a couple days do one and a couple days later do the other. i'm thinking about the same amount as i did with the liver - only 5 oz - and mixed with the yogurt to ease the richness.

now to make sure finola and boo are actuallly eating mice - i'll do that tomorrow night, maybe and do them defrosted instead of frozen so i can see how they deal.

once i'm sure they actually eat the mice i can get into a good balanced rotation.

and it looks like the others will be moving along, too. i was surprised that noodle took the liver/yogurt!! and very surprised that the 3 newbies too the gravy with the liver in it! very good start not worried about pixie - she's already taken chicken, so, she'll get into it. i'll start doing more with offering those 5 raw items...once the first 5 are set in a good routine, i can up the focus on the others.

please confirm:

liver one meal a week every other week
kidney one meal a every other week
heart one meal a week
brain one meal every couple of weeks
bone at least 4 meals per week

[Heather]

WAY TO GOOOOO ;D FURBABIES!!!!!
You and your little ones are sooo close to graduating. This is so fantastic. Sounds like your soaked liver and yogurt was a huge success. Awesome. I'm really proud of you and your little ones for working so hard and getting things done. Give those little fuzzbutts a great big hug.
I'm guessing that you're talking about alternating liver and kidney every other week (feeding liver one week and kidneys the next) and feeding heart every week? That sounds great to me. I like that you're looking into alternate organ meats. It can be difficult to consistently get this and it's really good for them. You can feed bone 4 times a week....watch if you think their stools are too dry you can get by with 3 times but I like 4 times myself. Ferrets are often diagnosed with poor calcium counts especially with raw fed (they really are lazy eaters and will try and get away with not eating bone even at the cost of their own health).
Great job. ;D
ciao

[joclyn]

yes, alternating liver and kidney so that they get each one every two weeks. with the kidney, are you supposed to include the bit of fat that's with it or just give the organ meat itself??

actually that's the same question with the brain, too.

i forgot about tongue...they didn't have any when i was in the store this time...that's considered muscle, right? is that a high-fat item that needs to be limited to once per week?

yes, yesterday was a good day!! they really didn't touch the lamb i put out last night - i guess the liver was a bit much on the tummy even though only a couple actually had enough of it for it to be considered a meal?

i found a piece of hard, whitish stuff in the litter box...i do not think it's the pellets. would that be undigested bone in the stool mixed with fur maybe?? otherwise, the only thing i've noticed is some very dark stools this morning - and that i knew to expect with the liver. generally, there is much less stool and it's about the same as it's always been - a few here and there that are runny and a couple have been a little seedy.

i don't think every one is chewing the bones...can i use a meat clever to chop them open and into smaller pieces to make it easier for them?

[joclyn]

tues: chicken w/bone, liver w/yogurt, lamb w/bone (they barely ate the meat and didn't dig in to the bone at all)

wed: chicken w/bone, lamb w/o bone
thurs: gizzards and tonight will be turkey w/o bone

is it okay for me to give small amount kidney or brain in the next day? just a few ounces just to introduce them to it.

[Heather]

Tongue is considered muscle meat....it's fairly lean too if I remember. Very rich though. I don't trim the organs unless it's that hard crumbly fat, then I remove it. It seems to be difficult for some of the fuzzies to digest. I figure my guys get enough fat without adding this to their diet.
It could be some undigested bone, I've seen that occasionally, especially if the ferret is new to raw. Whomever has the seedy poops is having a bit of a time digesting the fat.
I would open the bones with a cleaver or a hammer. I know that if the bone is too hard or too difficult to eat they will just leave it and not try at all.
Give the brain a try but only once you're sure that everyone is digesting their food after their most recent foray into the organ meats. You don't want to try too many new meats all at once because if there is an issue with digestion you won't know what is causing the problem. Yes, one of the things to note is that your ferrets stool colour will directly reflect what you've fed the night before. The darker stools, sometimes will actually appear black and tarry directly reflects the amount of fresh blood they consume. Their digestive process is so fast that they just don't absorb the blood the way say a cat or dog would
I will be interested to see how the brains go over. I've never had the opportunity to feed this as a separate item. I've fed them to the dog but in a sheep's skull and of course the brats love rat and mouse brains.
ciao

[joclyn]

mice this morning and beef tonight.

finola ate about 1/2 ounce and then brought most of it up - could have been too much too fast or didn't chew it up enough (some of the pieces were a bit big). winston ate well - at least an ounce or so. same for obi and duncan. boo didn't even want to try it.

i think he may have been confused because it wasn't hanging from a hook...

the cat did though and he did take a couple of pieces off the plate...

chauncey, noodle and pixie sniffed at it. grizel and taco were asleep, so haven't offered it to them yet.

[Heather]

Poor Finola, I wonder what happened . Everyone else who tried it kept it down? Great news about the kitty, are you trying to switch him or does he just occasionally help himself to the treats?
ciao

[joclyn]

i think it was a combination of eating too much too fast and a piece that was too big...i cut this up instead of putting it on the hooks (as i've been doing with everything except the liver) and i think she just figured she could gobble it down without really chewing like she does when she has to work a bit off a big chunk.

i gave turkey later (put it on the hooks instead of cutting up) and she was just fine with that. even the fair sized piece she pulled off she worked at to eat so was naturally paced. i think i'll avoid doing stuff on a plate unless it's something pureed.

because...

i decided to offer some turkey to grizel & taco. i cut it up because they wouldn't take the big chunk in their mouths...they're so new to it, so, small bits on a plate makes sense for them. well, taco realy didn't take more than a couple pieces. grizel did though!! yay!! and one of them was bigger and she ended up bringing most of what she'd just eaten up. i thought i'd gotten them all the same size...will have to be more careful next time. grizel is my smallest - she's the size of a 6 month old kit, so, everything on her is tinier - and there's more of a chance of a piece of food getting stuck...

as for rusty, if i have the ferrets on raw, i'd like to get him on it too. he's not one for eating canned so, moving to raw will be a huge step for him. and he's never been one to take food from the hand, so, switching him will be a matter of if he's interested. which he does seem to be when it's certain meats. so, i'll offer him some and/or allow him access to what they're munching on.

he actually climbed up into the cage today - i had the one door open because i had two in there to give them opportunity to eat without being bowled over by oberon and duncan (both can be quite pushy). rusty jumped up and went right for the dish with the meat, so i let him be and he took some. so, i may be able to get him switched too.

i'm going to do beef again tomorrow - chunks on the hooks - and see how finola does with it. i think she'll be fine...

[joclyn]

some pics i don't have a video camera - would really love to show how much gusto finola has when attacking the meat. this from the girl who, even at six months old, refused to even sniff raw stuff; much less take it in her mouth! now, she's just amazing with how she's gotten the hang of it and with how much she enjoys it!!

clickable for bigger...

boo


oberon


finola

[Heather]

Awesome photos. You're going to post them in the ferrets eating raw section...right?
Cats like ferrets are really finicky about eating bone, so whatever it takes I'm always amazed at how well the cats look when they're finally switched and the lack of health issues too.
It does indeed sound like your little ones really are eating too fast or swallowing without chewing properly. I know that carnivores don't really chew (which is why the whole thing about kibble being in the right shape to clean their teeth is all wrong and it does more damage than good) but when they first start this can indeed be a big issue. As gross as it sounds if they had done this in the wild (dogs do this all the time if their owners don't freak), and cats will do this too, though less often. They will gulp food so that other carnivores will not get their food. If it doesn't sit right, they will regurgitate it and consume it again. The digestive juices will have partially digested the meat, so it's easier to eat the second time round. I don't think ferrets are inclined as much to this habit (they don't do well with vomiting) but I'm also not sure that this has been a problem with kibble and less with meat.
ciao

[joclyn]

no problem with the beef the second time around i did put it on the hooks and i that definetly makes a difference in how fast they ingest...iow, a bit slower since they have to work a bit off the big chunk.

boo and finola are a little thinner than i like, so i gave them a can of quail (before grain 100% meat). i know, not raw. i wanted to be sure they'd eat though.

boo is not too bad on weight - still, he's been having trouble with it for a few months, and, even though he is eating the raw, i noticed another drop, so, wanted to boost him. finola is much thinner than she should be at this time of year. she's eating the raw, obviously not enough of it.

so, i supplemented with what i had on hand.

i will make a raw gravy - need to get meat without bones in it, though, to do that. if i put the organ meat in that, can i give it every couple of days if there's not all that much in it??

i didn't realize there was a section for pics...will post 'em over there

[Heather]

Sounds to me like your guys could use some cheap fatty meats. Not good for us but really good for ferrets. If y0ur guys will eat pork or lamb these are often meats that offer good fat content.
I use a ground mix that is really heavy in fats, skin and meat to put on weight. I use a ground chicken mix that has bone, meat, lots of skin and fat, I use a mixture of organ meats and hearts in it too. I feed this daily and have had considerable success with it putting on weight. Kim, I think actually uses lard to put fat on her guys. I'm not sure how much I would give though and it could result in some digestive issues regarding the amount of fat (loose, seedy poops)
You can feed the organ meat daily if there's not a lot of it in there. I've had a couple of student who's little ones weren't fond of organ meats and they threw it in with a groud mix that they were feeding in the evenings. Whole meats were served in the morning when she went to work and were left with the little ones.
ciao

[joclyn]

i put lamb out again and almost all of them resisted eating it. dunno what's going on.

friday: mice, beef
saturday: cornish hen w/ bone, turkey
sunday: beef, canned quail for boo/finola, cornish hen w/bone
monday: lamb, kidneys w/yogurt, chicken no bone
today: turkey necks and ?? probably giblets

k. i defrosted the kidney when i wanted to do the brain...i marinated as i did for the liver and chopped it up - not quite pureed so there were some small chunks and some bigger.

gave it as is and finola ate it with encouragment from a spoon...ate about two teaspoonfuls. only got about 1 teaspoonful into boo. duncan had a little; obi tried it and winston looked then licked it off my finger and looked again. didn't really do his 'get-away' routine though, so, some progress there

both boo and finola took a little on their own when i left the bowl out for all. i left it for about 20 minutes and then mixed in some canned quail. that got everyone eating it except winston - i barely got a teaspoonful into him. dunc and obi ate some, not a whole lot and boo and finola had a little more (finola not so much as her tummy must have already been full from what she'd already had and she's never been big with eating gravy ever - just always has a small bit and she's done).

all told, they ate about half of the mix of kidney/yogurt and the quail (whole 5.5 oz can). the kidney was about 4 oz, i think, don't remember at the moment.

they all resisted the lamb and even the chicken i put out last night - it was a half pound and there was still some left this morning.

they're all kind of blah - dunno if it's the weather system coming in of if the second half of the cornish hen was off by the time they finished it up.

i DID see both boo and finola chomping on the bones from the hen...and i also found a mouse outside/behind the cage...so, someone stashed it somewhere and it got knocked of the cage...and that would be finola going by where i found the mouse - right below the spot where she usually takes stuff to eat it. or maybe the cat reached in and pushed it out. dunno.

so, good to know that they're eating bone - i wasn't sure that they were.

i found another long white piece in the box again. definitely not a pellet. and going by the size of it, it would have to be from obi. both the size of it and that he definitely LOVES to chomp bone...

boo is really not eating enough - at least when i'm watching. and he's really blah. not very playful at all. i'm hoping it's just a matter of he has an irritated tooth (he has tartar very bad that has affected the gum previously). he goes for a dental friday...not that i want him to lose any teeth, i am hoping that there is an issue there that is causing him to not be eating because chewing on bones and having to chew through solid meat has irritated that one spot. will see.

i'm going to drop him off the night before - is it okay for me to leave kibble for him? just for ease for those at the vet hospital?? or should i do canned food?? will be kind of hard to get his evening meal into him before i drop him off because i have to do that by 7 pm...

[joclyn]

not much eaten off the turkey necks - i put giblets out tonight and while i was putting them on the hooks, rusty was really bothering me. so, i put some in his bowl and he ate it up!! if he keeps showing interest and keep eating little bits, i can definitely get him switched, too!!

still need to know about what to do for boo for overnight at the vets. although, we're due for MORE snow, starting thursday morning, so, if it tracks in the manner for the 12-18, rather than 6-12, i may move the appt. i really hope i don't need to though - he needs that dental and she really wants to run that panel...

[Heather]

Do whatever you think he will be most comfortable with. In stress situations like this, go with what will most likely be eaten. Leave him with a meal of the moist (or kibble, whatever he's comfortable with) and a chicken wing. That should cover it, unless the vet's office is really uncomfortable with it.
It could be his teeth, Napoleon was quite ill with his one tooth and was getting really touchy about what he ate and didn't. Within 24 hrs of having a back molar pulled he was chowing into just about everything that was offered.
Sounds to me that your guys are eating fairly well. I found the last couple of days that my guys are off their food too. They're not unwell, just off. Sleeping a bit more, it could be weather, for my guys it could be the loss of Loki and the fact that Nicodemus is not good either and will probably not make it either (a rough stretch )
Great news about Rusty. Fantastic. Some of the switching will actually be through peer (fert) pressure. The whole Monkey see monkey do thing
keep me posted about Boo. I hope that you get him in to his appt. Good luck
ciao