Joclyn's Switching Thread

[Heather]

I often give my guys frozen meats when I'm going to be out. They thaw out gradually, if it's hot out the guys like the frozen gibbies to chew on. Your little ones may not have had anything to do with the whole giblets but perhaps by giving them one or two....you never know
It's wonderful when they really appreciate their foods. I love it when I put their dinners in their cages and turn the lights out and all you hear is lots of lip smacking and the odd scuffle and screaming when some sneak thief steals someones choice piece. Your little Obi's antics would have been a delight to watch. Yes, head chomping....something that happens both when they're hunting and when given frozen....it's the little headless corpses that you find ohhhhh in the litter box, stuffed in a sleep box (bed snacks), under the sofa....or under my pillow ....like I need sleepy snacks that really bother me. I know they usually get back to them but I really don't need to find them.
Let me know how your liver experiment goes. Have a good weekend
ciao

[joclyn]

if the giblets had already been cut up, i'd have left them out frozen. since they really didn't go over too well and weren't in small/managable pieces, i didn't think it would be worthwhile. although, i probably should have done it anyway...

i put them out last night (cut up fairly small) and very little was left this morning. i have no idea who ate them though - other than duncan and obi.

i did take the chicken out last night, so, that was ready to dice up this afternoon. i took out both packages - the one with meat only and the bone with some meat still on it.

i did the meat chunks first and sat and watched who ate and how much. finola ate enough to be considered just about a meal for her size, i think. boo ate a half dozen pieces (very small chunks) and then lost interest. winston ate a good amount - not quite what i would consider a meal for his size, still, he ate it and didn't bring anything up. duncan and obi were pigs about it and looking for more when the plates were clean

pixie even seemed interested in it!!! i held a piece for her she didn't shake her head or move away. she sniffed at it for a good long time and i thought she was going to either take it or, at the least, lick it. she didn't though. still, that's more progress for her.

i was REALLY glad that i'd taken the pack with the bones out too!! whatever meat is on the bones added to the meat already eaten comes out to about a full meal for each one. so, even though they only ate a little bit more of it before napping, it's there and they'll finish it up.

boo was VERY interested in the meat on the bone - worked at it for a bit and had some more to eat. finola also had some more...so, maybe that's the key for him...he's only taken a small amount from the plate - maybe he likes to work for it??

maybe i don't have to be so concerned about doing small chunks for them (boo & finola)...actually, it seems winston is the one that doesn't do all that much going-after of things like wings and necks and such. unless he's doing it at times i'm not here.

so, they have their midnight snack all set and we'll see how much is left in the morning. i forgot to score the meat a bit so it's easier for them to get it off the bone - may sneak it out and do that.

during a break to warm up from being outside shoveling, i played with winston a bit. his tummy was gurgling and he's generally been clingy this week (which is not his usual unless he's at a show or the vets office and then because he's scared he clings like his life depends on it).

so, i guess he's having some issues with the raw (in general; rather than a specific item) and isn't feeling too good.

all poos are okay from what i can tell - hard to tell since all the boys go in one corner and sometimes the girls do as well. i've seen a general decrease in quantity and only a few that were really loose and they were not all that bad, actually. and nothing has had any odd odors (like infection).

so, little winston has a sensitive tummy, i guess.

should i avoid organ stuff for him for a bit and just focus on regular muscle meat? i can give him mice, so he'll get some bit of extra nutrients from them.

obviously, i'm going to have to do a bit of cage juggling so i can figure out how much each one is actually eating. not only to figure out how much they should have each day...just to really see who is actually eating the raw stuff and who isn't...i don't want to remove kibble only to find someone is not really doing anything other than tasting at the raw...

i'm glad i have the cage space to do it easily!

[Heather]

It sounds like things are moving along nicely. Great work. Hold off on the organ meats for a bit, he's not going to get sick by not eating it, especially if you're feeding whole mice too. You might try just a sliver for him when everyone else is eating theirs. See if he can keep it down. If he does, give him a couple of days and then see if he can keep 2 pieces down. He may never be able to take the whole dosage but see if he can eat some. If he really can't stomach it, perhaps we will have to see if he can handle some cod liver oil. There are always alternative maybe not quite as good but a good standby until we can come up with another solution.
ciao

[joclyn]

yeah, i'm really pleased with how things are going!! and today's meal went phenomenally!!

set backs are to be expected, though, so, this stuff with winston isn't that much of a concern. it's still workable.

it's been suggested to do the liver mixed with something - either soupies or, better, yogurt because that will start the digestive process ahead of time.

i do like the idea of mixing it (and kidney if that's also a tummy issue) with the gravy i make. i still want them familiar with and liking the gravy. i want them to still be comfortable with some kind of gravy or soup for when they get sick. so, still keeping that in the equation and modifying it to give the organ stuff is a good work-around. for all; not just winston - even if the others will eat the organs whole.

although what i have right now is cooked, i can certainly switch off to a raw version at some point.

for now, using it to thin out the liver might be the best idea. and that's the plan for tomorrow. i forgot to buy the plain yogurt yesterday and i really don't think i'll venture out on the road tomorrow. things are still being cleaned up (we got a bit more than 2 feet overnight last night and into today) and i brought work home with me because i couldn't stay friday due to the snow starting, so, the combo of needing to get the work done and the roads not being their best, i think i'll just use the gravy i have on hand this time instead of going out just to get some yogurt.

i'll go really light on the liver for winston's portion - which will really be a very small amount. i usually put a little nupro (which is mostly dried liver) in the gravy and i never use too, too much, so, i'll try to match the amount of fresh to the amount of powder i usually put in. and that means hardly any because i don't use much of the powder at all. so, hopefully, it won't bother his tummy with just a very small amount.

i think i'll mix the liver in with the gravy for the others as well. since only two of them actually ate any of the fresh stuff, this might be the best way to introduce the flavor (and texture) to them and then i can work up to chunks of the stuff by itself.

and i'll make sure to get some yogurt before i give the liver again - especially if it still doesn't go over well mixed with the gravy.

[Heather]

Keep me posted
ciao

[joclyn]

had a bad night and then today was awful with the pain - i had more stones pass late this afternoon (which only relieved the pain for a short while).

i'd put lamb out last night before i went to sleep - about a third of it was still there this morning. boo and finola seemed to be looking for kibbles so, i put some out and let them eat while the rest were out in the play area.

put everyone back up after a while and throughout the day, more of the lamb was eaten.

i defrosted the liver and then ended up not having time to mix anything up. had to get the work that i'd brought home done - and, no one was awake most of the evening anyway! anyone who did pop their heads up i put out for playtime and they just went back to sleep.

so, didn't do the liver. i'll do that tomorrow night - will have to since it's now defrosted!

i put some mice out a little while ago...boo got up and was frantic. he did not go for the mice at all nor the lamb that was still there, so i put some kibble out for him.

hopefully he'll dig into one of the mice later in the night. and hopefully so will finola. the others will, so no worries there.

was not a good day all around. for me it was excruciating with this abdominal pain (at least the mouth is feeling better, so one thing down). even the ferrets were 'off' too. not much playing - either inside nor outside; no one was too thrilled with the snow either. and everyone basically slept all of the day...even now, no one is awake...has been a really odd day...

[Heather]

Owww, I'm sorry that you're in so much pain My ex had stones it was horrible. I hope that you've passed all the miserable pieces and that you're starting to feel better. Strangely enough, I've found that the fuzzies quite often do sleepy days after a bout of bad weather. I don't know if they're affected by barometric pressure changes or not but it certainly seems that way. They might also have been feeling a bit of your lethargy too. I hope that everything starts to work better for you all soon.
Let me know how that liver goes, especially with Winston (he's the one with the iffy tummy right?)
ciao

[joclyn]

i've noticed they do get a bit blah and a lot less active whenever there's the edge of a weather system...yes, i do think they are affected by the barometric pressure. this was just an extreme and was noticable. maybe they did pick up on what i was feeling. certainly makes sense

did not do the liver tonight. had an extremely long day and i did easy and put out a nice chicken leg/thigh.

omg! you'd think they'd never seen chicken before or that it was manna from heaven!!!!

i hooked it up to the side of the cage and put them back in from playtime. hahahahaha! all 5 were at it at once - all their heads stacked above/below and around it and winston was laying on his back and was at the very bottom of the piece of meat. all 5 layed in on it and i put pixie in for the heck of it too and even she was looking interested...and had a bit of a put-out look on her face since she felt left out of it...

so i grabbed her and held her outside of the cage so she could get to the meat. she actually licked at it!!! i took a little bit of the skin off and gave it to her and she ate it. just a tiny piece and she didn't want more - it's a start. pretty good since i've only made an effort to put her in front of the raw less than a handful of times.

what they really seem to like is the skin - that's what they were mainly focused on; not so much the meat...once the 5 had gone at it for a bit they all drifted away. and then someone went back at it (i went to eat myself, so didn't see who).

i'll do the liver tomorrow - will be making a point to get home early because we're due for more snow...and last i heard it was to be close to a repeat of what we just had over the weekend.

not good for work and the accountant being in (and me not done with entries that are needed so he can do his thing) and not good since i've got the gb issue to deal with and i've got to get a couple in to the vet too...

will be nice to be snowed in, tho (if it happens). i desperately need to not have to be at the office - i hate this time of year to begin with because it's so busy and it's sparse the time i have with the kiddies. with all these med issues going on and being restricted on what i'm able to do, they're feeling it - and me too. i just want a whole day to sit and play...

[Heather]

I hope you get your snow day so that you can stay home and play hooky I'm hoping for one up here, last year I had already closed the club 6 or 7 times due to snow and treacherous driving conditions. This year I've been totally out of luck. We've not had any snow since before Christmas, and have no snow left except in the bush. The weather is raw and miserable. I'm not fond of snow but I would appreciate it's insulating effect against this bitter wind.
Whoo hooo!!! Sounds like your little ones had a real break through on that chicken piece. Wonderful. Even your little Pixie...that's great!! It's a start, she's showing interest. There has been more than one occasion where the business has shown the newbies the ropes about what to eat around here They love the skin because it's what their little bodies crave...the skin and the layer of fat underneath the skin. They need this more than anything. The fats that are in kibble are actually rancid from being over cooked....your little ones are finding one of the key components that is missing in their diets. Have you tried slashing the meat to the bone along with the skin to entice your little meat monsters to sample some of the meat too. I find that my guys are much more willing to eat the meat if it's easier to get to.
Great work, good luck
ciao

[joclyn]

oh, i know the fats in the kibble are awful!!! that's one of the reasons i make the gravy and put extra skin in it while cooking the broth up (and cooking all the nutrients out of the bones)!!

i did slice into this leg/thigh a bit to break up the meat and make it easier for them to get it. i was rushing and didn't go too deeply on it - wanted to get it out there for them. the other one in the package i did do a bit better with and that's in the freezer for the moment - put holes in it so i can just put the hooks into it and hang it frozen. actually, should have put the hooks in it before i froze it...

there's about half the meat left on the bones yet. i have giblets out defrosting and will switch out the day old stuff with that tonight.

i am getting a day off...we're getting hit heavy again. i brought work home with me (since the accountant will also be working at home and there are some issues that need investigating). i'm not planning on doing too much work tho - i've already worked 25 hours in the past three days...so, will make the most of the time at home and try to make it up to the kiddies for being so busy this past month!

i forgot i have steak in the freezer. haven't tried beef for them yet. wish i'd realized i had it before i took the giblets out! i chucked the liver (it didn't look right and had an off odor) and will have to defrost another container so i can do the mix with the gravy. will do that tomorrow and let you know how it goes!

[Heather]

Good stuff. I hope you enjoy your day off. So far, we've had a couple of lazy flakes of snow. Looks like you're getting it all Stay safe, don't do too much shoveling either.
ciao

[joclyn]

i ended up trying the gizzards (correct term) on hooks and they ate them. more lamb - everyone ate it, so, maybe it was just a first time that particular cut? no problems with any of it coming up, either. more mice; more chicken - that was a leg/thigh so covered both meals for the day. gave turkey today (saw a breast 'mignon' so got that).

have not been putting kibble in since wednesday. a little concerned with boo since i haven't seen him actually eat mice yet. and not sure he's eating enough of what is out.

they all seem to go for some right away and then will have more later. would be easier to monitor how much everyone is eating if they'd eat their whole portion in one shot!!

anyhoo, i'm giving them the food and letting them eat as they will and then they get playtime - depending on how much boo, winston and finola ate intially, i will give each some time by themselves with the food. boo has always been one to not push for food when others are there (either kibble or gravy), so, just giving him time without others. also making sure he does eat - helping him a bit. same with finola although, she seems to be doing just fine. sometimes winston doesn't seem to eat, so, he's also getting some one-on-one time with the food. he's a stasher though, so, i think he's okay.

i'm going to weigh everyone tomorrow and do that every 4 days to keep track - and make adjustments if needed.

a couple times, when i didn't think they'd eaten, i put some kibble out for boo or finola - or put them in another cage so they could have some. i've yet to see either eat mice, so, need to work on that...the days i put mice out - once while still keeping kibble out and the other after i stopped putting it - are the days i made sure they had kibble to eat. and i'll continue to do that on mice feedings until i see them eating them.

so, basically, they're switched - with some bits of hesitation on their part. chunks on a plate don't seem to be as enticing for any of them. especially boo and finola which is absolutley amazing since they've always been kibble eaters or gravy. i'd have thought they'd be more comfortable with chunks on a plate! meat hanging from a hook goes over very well, though, so, that's mainly how i'll be doing it now that i see it is more productive.

k. finally got to the supermarket that has all the good stuff (organs)! so, i am fully stocked up here. veal heart, veal brains, chicken legs and thighs (separately, not together), chicken gizzards, chicken hearts, turkey necks, turkey wings, turkey thighs, baby quail, beef steaks, cornish hens, lamb - got shoulder cut and breast cut today.

also got a duck!! hard call whether i'd eat it or give it to them!! lol! then, further down the case, i saw duck leg portions. the whole duck, although fresh, has added sodium - don't think i want to give them that (maybe just some of the skin). so, i grabbed some of the leg portions. 99 cents for a 12 ounce piece - not so bad!!

they also had goat - i didn't get any though since most of it was chunked and had a lot of bone in it. there were only 3 packages there and they all seemed like more bone than meat and for the price, well, too high when most of it was bone. so, that'll be left for another trip - or i'll go to that ethnic grocery instead.

no, i didn't buy all that today! mainly the organ meats and the chicken and lamb - already had the other stuff.

k. i've an idea on how much each should eat at a serving. as well as how much they are actually eating. still monitoring and observing - it seems different each time i give them something...so, still a bit confused. if it was a matter of the first time they have something they didn't eat as much and the next time they did, i'd think it was just a 'getting used to it' thing. except, there is no consistancy to it at this point. other than the food does eventually get eaten, that is.

now comes how much of the various things and how frequently.

oberon can easily break the chicken leg bones. so, that may work for the others who have smaller jaws since they'll end up with smaller pieces that are more workable for them. not sure if winston and duncan can chew through the chicken leg bones - both can work through the wing bones, though (and, of course, duncan). i'd think the tip part is workable for boo and maybe even finola - the thicker parts i wouldn't think so as their jaws are smaller - i could be wrong though.

i don't expect them to be able to do much with the pieces of lamb bone. i'll cut out the sliver tip pieces and just give the meat. the pieces that are straight cross-cut of the bone, i'll leave because the marrow will be good for them. the breast piece of lamb, i'm not sure if it's bone-in or boneless. the whole rib, though, i'll leave the meat on it and let them work for it and i doubt they'll be able to break through the bone.

the chicken legs and the thighs i got today are bone-in. and they are smaller than the leg/thighs i'd gotten before. if they manage to chew through the bones, is that okay? so far, it's been a matter of times up for the meat to sit out before they've gotten to a point of breaking through the bone. and i didn't think they'd be able to get through the leg bones at all. until today - was surprised to see the leg bone chewed through!! it was a larger piece, too, so all the more suprising (and must have been oberon that did it). is that something i should be concerned about?? no one is acting funny and nothing off in the stools - so far anyway.

cornish hens they can have any of the bones, correct? even the breast bones?

mice do not have enough bones to really count towards anything right? can they be given twice a week or is just once good?

how much bone should they be ingesting per week?

how frequently for liver and kidney? isn't it the kidney that has all the taurine?

what about the chicken hearts?? i'm thinking that's rich, so, should only be once per week or maybe once per every two weeks??? and one heart per ferret? there were different sizes in the package so i can actually match size of heart to size of ferret, lol, and won't need to cut any!

and what about the brain?? that's fatty, correct? how much; how frequently?

also, poultry skins - the legs i got have the skin on. and they DO love it! also will have extra skin from the duck. i don't want to give too much fat though.

the chicken gizzards are considered muscle not organ, right? (even though it's actually an organ)

i remembered to get plain yogurt so can do the liver tomorrow. how long should i let the liver sit in the yogurt before giving it?

also got chicken feet today!! i thought they'd be good for chewing on.

[Heather]

Whoaaaa You've saved me a week's worth of questions
First, congratulations....it's sounds to me that your furbabies are eating raw. Yayyyy ;D
Ok, question about eating bone.....let them try any bones that you feed. This could include, lamb, goat, emu if you want Sometimes they will surprise you but not to worry, their system is designed to eat it. Depending on the ferret (this is trial and error) as to how much bone you feed in a weekly period. I feed bone daily, in ground meats but feed whole meats sometimes with sometimes without, sometimes prey in the evening. It's advised when feeding whole meats that they get bone 3 to 4 times a week. If you feed organs as themselves, feed them once a week. Heart is high in taurine but is considered muscle meat not organ so you may feed daily if you choose (especially if it's been frozen and the natural taurine will have been compromised but not elliminated). Brains are an organ high in amino acids and many other beneficial trace minerals and considering sensitivity issues I would feed sparingly (at least at first), until your little ones are more accustomed to eating raw on a regular basis. No more than a meal every couple of weeks. If no one shows any ill effects, feed as you would any other organ (once in a weekly feeding period).
Mice....if adult are considered completely balanced....bone, organ everything your little ones could want in a perfect pkg. So don't discount the little furry swanson dinners.
Liver soaked in yogurt....hmmmm, how long?? I don't honestly know, I've never fed it or served it this way. Do you remember who suggested this because that's how we're going find out how long. I don't feed yogurt presently as it just doesn't agree with a couple of my guys.
Chicken feet are great for calcium and msm good stuff. I've got a couple who eat them and they're worth bickering over...they can be fed as a snack or as a bone meal but there really isn't enough meat so feed with a meat of some sort if feeding as a meal.
I like that you're going to start weighing them. Keep a chart. Right now I weigh monthly, with the at risk ones being weighed either weekly or bi-weekly depending on the health risk. Once you get into the habit sometimes you can actually see problems arising before you have a serious issue (the unfortunate thing is that you also cannot define what the exact problem is, fortunately you know who to watch closely and can move on it if necessary)
Great work, I can see that you will be graduating soon Excellent work
ciao
ciao

[joclyn]

sorry to hit you with so many ? at one time! it's just that i got all that organ stuff and needed to know!

okay, so i can give bone any time. should i hit the whole bones with a meat cleaver to open them up to make it easier for them to chew it?? so, i could have gotten the goat - that was done as cubes so, some pieces had a part of bone in it and others didn't. i wasn't sure if that would be okay so i opted not to get it.

and, to be clear, the lamb that has the pieces of bone that aren't cut across, i can let them have that??? in other words, the bone is long pieces because the meat was cut on an angle to the bone. some of the 'chops' have the bone cut straight through (so it's a little circle of bone with the marrow in the center).

how much is too much??

just in this short time of giving it, i'm seeing differences. lots more muscle tone. and the teeth are looking fabulous!!!

really gotta get grizel eating raw - her teeth are such an ugly yellow...

i'm surprised heart can be given so often!! i wish i could buy just the hearts - they come mixed with the gizzards and there's usually much more gizzard than heart. in fact, i've gotten packages that didn't have more than 3 hearts in them.

i got sidetracked with cleaning and going overboard with what i can deal with at the moment - so, didn't do the liver because i needed to sit and do nothing for a while. will try to do it tomorrow and that will give me time to touch base with erinn about how long to let it sit in the yogurt.

[Heather]

Nawwww, just teasing you Question away, that's what we're here for ;D
Generally speaking, the way to look at it is.....meat 3 or 4 times a week and bone 3 or 4 times. I find that at that point you will start deciding if your guys need more bone or less depending on how loose their poops are. Most of my guys need a bit more bone, they're rather lazy and that seems to be a common complaint with others who feed frankenprey, they have a hard time getting their guys to eat bone. Just keep offering, they will let you know if the bone is too hard, it seems to find a place in the litter box and then they poop on it
That's the only way I can get hearts too. I can get beef heart and I just picked up beef and pork hearts (60 lbs) last weekend so they will be eating that. Remember too, your guys are just starting out eating raw. They may not be able to handle heart as often as all that. It's a very rich meat. Even my youngest pair, just under 2 were eating raw before they were turned into me as rescues. So none of my guys have been eating raw for less than 2 yrs. They can eat a lot more blood meats then say a ferret who is just switching up. A lot of this is going to be trial and error, especially with your wee one with the sensitive tummy.
That's great that you're starting to see a difference in their appearances. It can be really amazing. You and your little ones are doing fantastic. Good luck
ciao