Joclyn's Switching Thread

[Heather]

Actually, you're doing awesome. To cover all your bases you require 3 different types of protein. Myself, I try to make one of those proteins a red meat but it doesn't have to be. You've got the break down of meat/bone and organ meats. The easiest thing is to remember it's balance over time. I find that I have to be more careful about my meat bone ratio with the ferrets vs say the dogs or cats. I think it's because of the ferrets' high metabolism. A dog or cat you can skip a couple of bone days and not get some really icky poops.... a ferret not so much.
You could try reading the rodent pro site, it has some of the vit mineral breakdowns. I'm not sure that Giuli didn't post another site too. It will be in one of the stickied sections within the nutritional section. As long as you've got multiple proteins, I would be less concerned.
I would be upset too with the hare-today order. It's great for dogs, even cats but for ferrets this order would be the pits I like the whole animal deal but not cut up in this manner. If you advertise the whole animal then the whole animal has to be sold....yes it would mean that people might indeed get more than they want (you can't order 1 lbs rabbit, it would be a 5 or 6 lbs rabbit). You would order and get 1 whole rabbit. It's not balanced if you get the front end of 3 rabbits and no back ends (if I understand it correctly it's only cut for say 1 lbs pkgs with no thought to content meat/bone/organ ratios)
I would think that if your little ones are all eating all these meats that you're ready to graduate. Make up a menu of what you would feed for a week:
Monday.....morning chicken necks.....monday night pork chunks
Tues....morning veal chunks Tues night...quail pieces
something like that
We will take a look and see how things are and if improvements could be made. Things are looking good. I think that you and your fuzzies are getting quite comfortable with what you're doing
ciao

[joclyn]

the duck and the rabbit come in 3 or 4 lb packages (i forget which is which). and yes, one of the duck bags had 3 butt ends and a couple other areas. the rabbit pkgs seem a bit more balanced on getting the whole, or most of the whole, thing. i haven't seen any rabbit leg/feet...they do sell those as a separate item, so that's not surprising.

what bothered me the most is that the rabbit is pictured cut up like you do when you 'dress' meat. that's not how it arrived...and how it arrived would definitely not work too well for someone with less than 3...would be a lot of waste!

i will do up a chart. not tomorrow tho. i have an appt to get this tooth out - had completely forgotten about it after the first week after treating the abcess (i hate my job) and i had an infection going again and called and set the appt.

and.

oberon needs to go to the vet too. he's got a teeth issue as of tonight. i found him bleeding a short time after i put their chicken wings in. thought he'd impaled himself on the hooks i use to hold the meat (if they're fighting over the meat, sometimes they come undone) or had cut himself on the bones. nope. he's already missing one of the small teeth on the bottom in the front...and now, the two on either side of that open spot are dislodged and feel rough. so, i've got to get him looked at tomorrow, too.

[joclyn]

forgot...i'll look at what's in the stickies. if three protein types are the minimum, then i'm good with what i've been giving. and i agree that one of the protiens should be a red meat...i just wish they really liked the red meat i've given them - it's still hit or miss with both the lamb and the goat. i haven't seen lamb cubes though for a while and i think they'd go over better since they're pretty consistant with moisture level (which is what i think is the issue with the cuts i've been able to get lately).

so, i've got more than enough to work with and i don't have to be so spread out with variety either. that, i can see, will be a plus for those times i can't get a hold of a particular kind of meat.

how frequently can they have gizzards?? i ask because they really, really, really love them!! are 2 meals a week okay?? what about 3? or is that pushing it too much? and can i do heart 2 meals a week (another one that goes over so well, lol).

i was going to do a 2 week chart...

[Heather]

Poor you and Oberon too. I hate teeth problems, they're rather like back aches they get right into you Look after yourselves. Take care.
ciao

[joclyn]

Apr 12, 2010 1:34:57 GMT -5 joclyn said:

how frequently can they have gizzards?? i ask because they really, really, really love them!! are 2 meals a week okay?? what about 3? or is that pushing it too much? and can i do heart 2 meals a week (another one that goes over so well, lol).

[Heather]

Treat the gizzards like muscle meats. My guys love them too They're worth fighting for Same as heart again it's a muscle meat. Remember, you have to feed more than 1 type of meat so you can only feed these muscle meats only a couple of times a week. Now, my guys also love beef heart too. They liked pork hearts but I have a hard time finding this protein very often.
So thats 3 different proteins but the same muscle....
ciao

[joclyn]

heya. was a very bad week and the weekend was no better. i'm still working on the chart.

some good news, though! they ate their (chicken) liver with little resistance and i gave it to them just cut up with no yogurt added. duncan didn't have too much, winston either - they ate about half what they usually eat for a meal. boo ate a full portion and finola and obi ate just about full portions. and i know they ate the veal liver with no problems. so, good to know that the chicken one is also being received well (finally)!

is it okay to give the liver & kidney once every week (instead of doing one one week and then the other one the next) and just do smaller than the usual portions? they're eating both, just not full meal-sized portions of either one.

i could do a meal that consisted of a small/half-sized portion of organ meat and give necks also since there isn't a lot of meat on the necks. the combo of the two would add up to a full-sized portion. since only boo and oberon actually really go to town on the organs, this might work better to make sure that everyone is getting the proper nutrients...

[Heather]

Sounds like a great idea. Go for it. There is much room for you to play with. You're at the point in your journey where you can now play with your little ones diets and make adjustments without serious consiquences to create a balanced diet for your little ones as individuals. You know what you need to do in the general sense of the word but now your diet must now be created in a manner that suits your little ones. If you find that they eat better with a mixed organ selection at one sitting then do so. If they need to eat bone with their organ meats then make that adjustment. My guys eat their organ meats better when it's mixed with other meat and bones. That's my guys....now you need to find out what you're little ones prefer
ciao

[joclyn]

oh, good! being able to split the organs into 2 portions is going to work much better. at least for a little while until they really get comfortable with them.

and the other thing with organs is the stuff from hare today - both the duck and rabbit have the organs, so there's add'l servings being given unless i try to take the organs out. which, depending on how/where they're sawed the animals, that isn't always possible...sometimes you can't even see that the piece HAS organ in it.

[Heather]

Don't worry about it. You may find that when you feed that, you may get looser stools but for the most part because they're a carnivore they're designed to get more organs sometimes and less others. The favourite line of raw feeders....balance over time I had one boy today who had ghastly black tarry stools, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what was wrong . Then I find the eviserated rat in his favourite hidey. He'd eaten nothing but the organs out and had gizzards and hearts last night...
ciao

[joclyn]

i'm sorry i haven't posted. i had the chart just about completed and then just needed to re-do it once you said it was okay to do liver & kidney more often in smaller portions.

which i definitely need to do - they didn't eat the kidney hardly at all. well, not really true. they ate the bit of veal kidney, not one bit of the beef.

i talked to the owner of the butcher shop. he can definitely get whatever i want. so, that's good! said he can get liver/kidney/brain from goat and lamb. i ordered and it was supposed to be in today and i didn't get a call...so, hope he was right about it and not telling me yes before he was sure.

anyhoo, had a conversation at the lupron clinic which warned me about quail feathers - so, i wanted to adjust the schedule to take that into account (for the moment until i use up the full-grown quail i have at the moment). i just haven't had time to look at it.

bit of being overworked more than usual due to the boss' imminent return (which is tomorrow and i didn't get all the things done that needed to be) and more other crap happening and a bit of not dealing with things unless it was imperative. really sorry to be holding you up. just not dealing too well with things. i could post it as is - has a few blank spots because i started re-working it from the almost-done state...

on the good side, the last lupron clinic she finally upped the doses a bit. i also got the melatonin implants in again for boo and finola. the combo of the meds has both boo and finola bulking up. you could see the difference within just a few days! so, they'll both look really nice for the show next week. and i feel so much better about finola now. she was so scrawny even with keeping her separate and even though she is eating anywhere from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 ounces at a feeding...so, has been taking in at least 3 oz a day and most days it's about 4 (with the occassional at 5). so, it was the meds not being the right dose.

boo i figured as much and she had upped his dose a little last month and you could see a bit of difference. and even more now. he'd gained 6 ounces from the last clinic (and finola gained 2) and he's put on a few more in the past week and she's definitely put on at least 4 since last week. even chauncey gained some.

oh! noodle is almost switched. he's eating everything i offer. and pixie eats almost everything. chauncey is starting to nibble (not just lick) and i caught grizel munching on the chicken today. i started putting little bits in the kibblekids cages...since they'll eat it when offered, i figured they'd eat it if it's hanging there. and they are. i can start ramping it up a bit now

taco is the only one who doesn't seem to be all that interested. something is up with him tho and i'll need to get him to the vet. i think he may be insulinomic.

i don't know when i'll get to working on the chart again. the next few days are going to be busy and stressful and i have to start getting situated for the show on saturday.

do you want me to just post what i have so far?

[Heather]

Don't worry about holding me up . I'm doing just fine Just keep me updated and when you've got your chart and meals figured out we will look at it and see where everyone's at.
I hope that Taco isn't insulinomic but it's one of the key diseases and nothing you can do but try and get them to eat the raw food and help keep their carbs down and their blood sugar stable. It's not a cure, but it seems to be easier to stabalize this disease using raw than the kibbles. You may have to feed kibbles anyway but the raw seems to give them that stabalized blood sugar that is so necessary.
Great work, don't sweat the chart (especially while your stressed for work) we will get to it
ciao

[joclyn]

i spoke with the vet today - he agreed that it's just as likely to be insu as it is that there's add'l teeth issues (he had one obviously bad one when i got him and when the dental was done 4 ended up being removed). so, he's going tomorrow night for a bg check and a look-see of his mouth/teeth.

i will finish up on the chart as soon as i can sheesh, i think it'll only take about an hour to fine-tune it...if i can do a little bit each day, i should have it done by friday. hopefully.

i've got numerous poultry sources, 1 rodent, 1 rabbit (dunno what family they're in) and the lamb/goat. beef is a no-go for most of them...i haven't been able to find veal (other than the liver) and i think that might go over okay since they did eat that liver. so, if that works, then that's an add'l red meat. some occassional fish and/or shellfish also.

i think that covers protein sources pretty well. i think another thing in the rodent family might be good since that's really their natural prey...are guinea pigs rodents?

[Heather]

You've more than got your protein bases covered. You're little ones eat some very good variety, you don't need beef. I believe guinea pigs are rodents, so are hamsters, rats...they all fit.
Keep me posted about Taco...poor wee thing.
ciao

[joclyn]

i'm sorry i haven't posted! just super busy with work stuff and dealing with taco's situation and had the show and work has been really busy since the boss just got back from his winter home. had to re-work the daily routines to accomodate taco's meds (and have lost some time daily due to needing to focus on him as he doesn't always eat the soupies unless i help him) and i took him to work with me for a week or so at the beginning of this and that took additional time from my days carting him and everything needed back & forth with me. and with warm weather, yardwork needs doing, so i have even less time for things than a month ago.

i did do some more work on the feeding chart - it is still not done though. and i'm really glad that i can do smaller portions of liver and kidney more frequently. after the rousing success with the chicken liver and the veal kidney, it's been an almost complete bust since - even if i gave the same thing.

finola, pixie and noodle are consistant with eating both liver and kidney - regardless of what animal it comes from. boo is good with liver (does eat it, regardless of what animal it's from, just takes him a bit sometimes) and not so good about kidney. winston and obi are back to not liking veal kidney and they didn't like the goat liver. at all. duncan has been basically okay with any kind of liver - did not really eat the kidney though that last couple times.

i did get goat kidney (from that butcher) and then gave it (and some other things) to someone at the show since she can't get a hold of any organ meat and a few other 'unusual' things, either. so, i'll have to order more. it was weird, they didn't really go nuts for the fresh gizzards from the butcher. they usually love them, so, that was suprising that they didn't like the fresh stuff. they did enjoy the fresh duck - and, geez, i hated to cut that up for them cuz it was fresh killed and it looked really good. it was also more expensive than he quoted - so, another reason it didn't make me happy giving it to them (was triple what he quoted ).

noodle is completely switched - he's been in with pixie and finola for about 3 weeks. i'd been putting little portions in the cage with him & chauncey and when i saw noodle go for the raw stuff first thing rather than kibble and that kept happening for 3 days - well, that was clear, so i moved him to the other cage. so, that leaves me with only 3 kibblekrunchers.

i haven't had time to work with them all that much. i do put stuff out for them and sometimes chauncey eats it and sometimes not and sometimes it takes a whole day or day & half for him to eat it. before taco got ill, he was starting to get into it. since he's been sick he hasn't shown any interest and i haven't pushed it. grizel isn't all that interested now...really sucks i had to move away from the routine as she was starting to enjoy it a bit. now, if i hand-feed it, she'll eat a bite or two - otherwise not a bit.

taco had a rough time of it for a couple weeks. seems to be situated now and is back to being playful and is eating better now. still a bit rocky though and has days where he isn't active at all. can he be switched to raw with insulinoma?? i'm thinking that, if i can do it, i would just leave extra amount out so that he could eat throughout the day and/or give him an extra feeding. does that sound about right?

good news about the show!! i was going to pull taco out - since he was just diagnosed the tuesday before it. well, i waited until the day of the show to see how he was doing and he seemed okay enough so i left him in the two categories he was in. well, boy, am i glad i did!! he took 1st in chocolate!! (didn't do well in shelter and that's directly due to the weight he lost). and pixie placed 3rd in chocolate

and, had another winner, too. oberon, finally, placed in all three rings in alter. 3rd in two and 7th in the other. and, then, he was named best opposite! totally blew me away when i heard his name called!!

chauncey was 3rd in mutt (which is about his usual). everyone else did so-so or worse than previously. was really disappointed grizel didn't do better - she did really well at york in companion and i thought she'd do about the same at this one. didn't happen tho. and boo didn't do too well in companion, either, which is weird because he's in really good shape at the moment - better muscle than he had at york. oh, well.

i will try to get the chart done this week. i am not guaranteeing it though. noodle has a growth that needs to be looked at, so, i'll be losing at least one night taking him to the vet - and another one (and maybe two) if he needs to have it removed and they have a spot open for the procedure this week.