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Post by pear2apple on Jul 19, 2008 22:54:00 GMT -5
Yes thats right. I never actually could give the Metro because I wanted to wait until I had the full week open so I wouldn't skip any doses. I started giving it Friday evening, he took his first .5ml fine. At this point he is having seedy green poo. That night I checked on him again around midnite, his poo is liquid green, looks like he'd been chewing weed (the drug). His poop reeked, it was just disgusting and all a liquid green slime stuff.
This morning same thing in the litter box, except now it is a pale green. He won't eat. So I try giving him his meds, he FREAKS out, won't sit still, I had to have my boyfriend help. He freaks out so much we let him go, he jumps up, starts to pace, then my boyfriend picks him up to move him off the couch and he throws up massive. Its the meds I just gave him and a hairball. Then he did a mini one again, then I didn't give him anymore meds. Another forum user suggested he may have been nauseated if he hadn't eaten before. Well he had a few licks of his liquid food, and he wouldn't take anymore. He hasn't been able to keep food down.
A few hours later I tried again with a water/baby food/pumpkin mix. He ran away after a few licks off my finger and he threw up white stuff 3 times. I haven't tried to get him to eat anything since. I added some baby food to his water since he was drinking ok. I'm watching him now, he's drinking the baby food water. So he is getting something down. Not enough of course. I have a NV/baby food/water/pumpkin mix in his food bowl, I also put Ferrevite on it to try entice him more. Its his favorite stuff. He has eaten some of that the past few days. So he is getting something, I just need him to eat more.
Anyway, I'm pretty depressed about this. I called the Emergency Vet and they don't have a vet who sees ferrets. They pretty much told me not to come in and check out a Petsmart!! Well it was 6pm on a Saturday, NOTHING IS OPEN! That really pissed me off. So Monday asap I am calling my vets and checking when I can come in. This is too serious to wait that long I think, but I have no option at this point.
Any ideas of what else I can do? He won't eat the soupie, not from a spoon or really from my finger like he normally will. Syringe feeding is rough. He's a tough guy. He swats me away and panics. Thats a lot of stress I don't want to give him though. Any other ideas of what he might eat would be perfect. Doesn't eat his kibble, so something runny almost water like may work.
Please keep us in your thoughts.
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 19, 2008 23:23:51 GMT -5
Since he is drinking his water ok, I'm going to keep refilling that with the baby food, hopefully he is getting some of that down. He is too wiggly for any food to get in his mouth and stay there. He is so protesting food, I've never seen this.
I think his tummy must be in lots of pain for him to not want to eat anything, not even more than a lick or 2 of his Ferrevite. I'm so worried he will throw up again.
Oh he had about 5 licks from a spoon of the baby food mix before panic set in.
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 20, 2008 16:27:12 GMT -5
I am feeding Apple Vanilla Ensure, the kind that should help him keep his weight. He seems to drink ok, but will not chew or eat anything. We are making a vet visit tomorrow am. He's feeling better, he dooked when I let him out of his cage, more curious but still lethargic.
Kiwi must be a carrier, she is hyper as ever.
Its sad, Apple loves Kiwi as a playmate, yet she made him sick. Will this continue to bounce back and forth between them? Or are they just carriers now?
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Post by weloveourweasels on Jul 20, 2008 18:07:37 GMT -5
That is how Rolo's poop looked with the colostridium. His symptoms sound just like Rolo's were. She had different colored poops. Sometimes nothing would come out but liquid bubbly stuff. And like the doc told me if you do not give all of the antibiotics it will not go away and it will only get worse. It got to the point she would not play and all she wanted to do was sleep. The only thing she did not do was vomit. Did your doc flavor the Metro? Because it is very nasty bitter stuff mine said. I would go to pet smart and get him something like this www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2754504&keepsr=0 or even regular ferrevite. It may not be the best thing you can give him but you have to get something in him to make sure he gets his taurine and stuff he needs. I cannot stress enough how he must get that full round of antibiotics and not randomly. Doc told me that it wouldn't work right even if I misses one day. Just get you baby to the Vet ASAP and remember to bring a fresh fecal sample in a baggie so they can be sure what it is. Maybe he is just having food sensitivities. To syringe feed him I would crush the kibble with a blunt object maybe a rolling pin or the flat side of a meat tenderizer in a plastic baggie and then add water until it is really thin and give him as much as you can and repete this every 2 hours.
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 20, 2008 19:57:33 GMT -5
Apple will eat some Ferrevite, but nothing like normal. I'm feeding Vanilla Ensure, and he's had a few mls of the stuff. Not too much at one time though. But he's curious and walking around and jumping on the couch! So that is a great sign.
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Post by Forum Administrator on Jul 20, 2008 23:27:43 GMT -5
Hi Chris, I am really sorry it took me so long to see this. I just checked out your other updates on ferret village. Here is what I would do: a.) stop giving gatorade (its SO high in sugar, combine that with the vite and the ensure and you've got sugar overload. NOT good! Go to the store and pick up some pedialyte asap. UNFLAVORED. You dont want to keep pumping sugar into him, ESPECIALLY when he is sick. b.) Stop the ensure (I know, I know, just trust me. The protein is NOT from animal sources....it is most likely SOY protein. He wont make much use of this product anyway. I know people recommend it but I see absolutely no reason why). c.) Take his regular food and wet it down. Take a feeding syringe or a turkey baster and feed him that. Another option is to take plain raw chicken breast or thigh (no bone), blend it up with some warm water and serve just that (you know this is going to be my #1 choice ) d.) Stop giving the 'vite. Again, more uneeded sugar (I HATE that product). So pedialyte, wet kibble OR puree meat (again my first choice). This will keep his weight up just fine if you feed him via spoon, syringe, or turkey baster. Get to the vet as soon as they open, moniter him because they can go downhill FAST. I dont know MUCH about ECE but from what I have heard ferrets can keep passing it back and forth to each other. You might want to get a second opinion on that though, as I am not *positive* about this. Please keep us posted. I've PMed mustelidmusk and hopefully she will offer her $0.02 soon.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 21, 2008 0:54:49 GMT -5
Hi, Since Apple is young, he'll probably get through this OKwith proper medical care. But it's essential that you get him to a good ferret vet ASAP. Most important - hydration - pedialyte! Have the vet give him subcutaneous injectons, preferably using Ringer's (i's like pedialyte on steroids.) Even a non-ferret emergency room can sub-Q a ferret. Next - food....BLAND FOOD I'm not a vet, but I do know that a bland diet is required, and most often chicken or turkey baby food is fed. BUT for apple, you may want o try lamb. - gerber's baby food second stage. Hill's AD ppercription diet is highly recommended to ECE. It does have chicken/poultry, but it's cooked, and it's about the 4rth ingredient in the list, so it should not be a huge issue - ASK your vet!! I do not recommend raw at this time - Apple's immune system is fighting hard, and I'm of the opinion that he doesn't need the extra bacterial load right now. Plus, Apple's system is still adjuting to raw and he's stressed with the arrival of his new sister. Please note that he food's I'm recomending have a history of working well for ECE , so thi is the conservative, proven approach. Some ferrets find baby food to be too sticky (like peanut butter), so you may want to thin slightly with a bit of PEDIALYTE. You ca add a tinybit of ferreone or fih oil if that makes him eat the food, but don't add much as oils are more difficult to digetst. If Apple is thrashing when being fed,you ca wrap him snugly in a towel with with his front legs restrainted (ferret straight jacket. Do you know how to syringe feed properly. If not, there' a good link I'm posting at the end of this post. MEDS- since ECE is a virus, Meds will not affect the virus, but they're reuired to prevent secondary infection. It sunds like you have some metronidazole? If this is ECE, then te Metronidazole seems like verkill to prevent secondary infection, and it will e tough on the ummy (which is already distressed) as well. Social Responsibility as a ferret owner - Notify the shelter - they should NOT accept any more ferrets until you can confirm the probem either way...If they take ferrets in, those ferrts will be at risk for catching the disease. Older ferrets with health problems may not survive. DO **NOT ** RELAX WITH SUPPORTIVE TREATMENT EVEN IF APPLE SEEMS BETTER. I hear that ECE goes through various stages, and just because your ferret seems to be getting better, continue the feedings, pedialyte and meds. and watch your ferrets like a hawk!!!! Le's get apple on the ro to recovery and we can discuss reinfection, later. Here is the link to a good ECE reference by Dr. Bruce Williams. Read all this, and you'll find a link on syringe feeding in the article. www.afip.org/consultation/vetpath/ferrets/ECE/ECE.htmlAlso, If you're having trouble syringe feeding, please let me know - I'm very experienced with this as a willife rehabber. I can give you lots of tips ad email pictures if necessary. Please feel free to PM me either through the forum or through my yahoo mail - Ill be watching this thread as well as PM & my yahoo email. Good luck at the vet's and please let me know what's going on. -jennifer
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Post by Forum Administrator on Jul 21, 2008 1:03:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the advice Kim. I appreciate your help.
Oh and just a note, since apple isnt fully converted to raw just yet I think jennifer is probably right (you might want to stick with cooked) I do want to note that if apple was a fully raw fed ferret (and he had been for some time) then I would recommend you keep him on raw. IMO its best to not throw in the additional stress of a diet change while an animal is already sick. I feel that even when sick a carnivore has the ability to digest raw meat, but since apple is new to raw (and his body is probably still adjusting to handling the bacteria, etc) take Jennifers advice.
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Post by weloveourweasels on Jul 21, 2008 3:49:54 GMT -5
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 21, 2008 8:26:08 GMT -5
I'm going to respond to each of you separate since you all seemed to respond at once! Hi Chris, I am really sorry it took me so long to see this. I just checked out your other updates on ferret village. No problem, you are a busy lady, I just wanted your advice! I was in major panic on Saturday!! Here is what I would do: a.) stop giving gatorade (its SO high in sugar, combine that with the vite and the ensure and you've got sugar overload. NOT good! Go to the store and pick up some pedialyte asap. UNFLAVORED. You dont want to keep pumping sugar into him, ESPECIALLY when he is sick. b.) Stop the ensure (I know, I know, just trust me. The protein is NOT from animal sources....it is most likely SOY protein. He wont make much use of this product anyway. I know people recommend it but I see absolutely no reason why). c.) Take his regular food and wet it down. Take a feeding syringe or a turkey baster and feed him that. Another option is to take plain raw chicken breast or thigh (no bone), blend it up with some warm water and serve just that (you know this is going to be my #1 choice ) d.) Stop giving the 'vite. Again, more uneeded sugar (I HATE that product). a) OK, I stopped giving the Gatorade after the first day because I ran out. Also because half his water ends up on his tummy because he scoops it out while he drinks. Maybe he is warm? He's been doing that for months though. I rubbed some water on his tummy last night, I left him out so he could pick wherever he was most comfortable to sleep. He chose the bathroom floor on a towel, within inches of a litter box. Though he only went in it once! But my A/C is on constantly, so that is also the cooler room. b) He will ONLY eat the Ensure! I practically knew it wasn't animal protein, but he won't eat anything, not even baby food warmed up. I had some in his water a few days ago, he drank some of that, but not much. He won't touch his NV or his Evo! Right now I am feeding an Ensure/water mix. He won't eat this on his own either, only by syringe. Maybe it tastes like milk to him? Like he's a kit? What about kitten replacer milk? Would this be good to give him now? c) I'll try wetting down his kibble today. I hope he eats that, I'm running out of options! Someone suggested banana baby food, I knew it most likely wasn't right, but no worries, Apple rejected that! OK, I just grabbed some hot water to soak the kibble in, I don't have a lid for the cup, so it may take longer. d) Honestly I'm only giving him the Ferrevite as a last resort for him to get some kind of nutrients since he won't touch anything else. But really, I hand him the cap which would normally make him go nuts, and after one lick he is done! So yes, something is not right!! Oh, and I'll pick up the Pedialyte tonight. So pedialyte, wet kibble OR puree meat (again my first choice). This will keep his weight up just fine if you feed him via spoon, syringe, or turkey baster. Get to the vet as soon as they open, moniter him because they can go downhill FAST. I dont know MUCH about ECE but from what I have heard ferrets can keep passing it back and forth to each other. You might want to get a second opinion on that though, as I am not *positive* about this. Please keep us posted. I've PMed mustelidmusk and hopefully she will offer her $0.02 soon. Apple is with me at work today, I am taking him home with me tonight, and lets all HOPE that I don't have to go overnight to KY on Wednesday, because I'm going to need to find someone to administer drugs to him for Wednesday night and Thursday morning then. And noone around me is good enough at it. I'm going to ask the vet for something he will like to start now, and then next week I could start the disgusting stuff! LOL I was hoping once treated, they would just be carriers now continue infection?! Thats the big question here!
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 21, 2008 8:55:11 GMT -5
Hi, Since Apple is young, he'll probably get through this OKwith proper medical care. But it's essential that you get him to a good ferret vet ASAP. Most important - hydration - pedialyte! Have the vet give him subcutaneous injectons, preferably using Ringer's (i's like pedialyte on steroids.) Even a non-ferret emergency room can sub-Q a ferret. I'm taking him into my vet before 11am, there's a wait, and I'm a work and he's sleeping now. I'm going to head out in 20mins. Pedialyte I am buying that tonight/after the vet visit. I'll ask the vet about the sub-Q. Hopefully he will do that without my asking, but I did notice yesterday he was dehydrated when I tried to scruff, it did not give enough. But then I was giving Ensure/water mixed together. I will stop that once I've been to the vet. At least he still drinks on his own! I just wanted some nutrients to be in his drink. Next - food....BLAND FOOD I'm not a vet, but I do know that a bland diet is required, and most often chicken or turkey baby food is fed. BUT for apple, you may want o try lamb. - gerber's baby food second stage. Hill's AD ppercription diet is highly recommended to ECE. It does have chicken/poultry, but it's cooked, and it's about the 4rth ingredient in the list, so it should not be a huge issue - ASK your vet!! I do not recommend raw at this time - Apple's immune system is fighting hard, and I'm of the opinion that he doesn't need the extra bacterial load right now. Plus, Apple's system is still adjuting to raw and he's stressed with the arrival of his new sister. Please note that he food's I'm recomending have a history of working well for ECE , so thi is the conservative, proven approach. Some ferrets find baby food to be too sticky (like peanut butter), so you may want to thin slightly with a bit of PEDIALYTE. You ca add a tinybit of ferreone or fih oil if that makes him eat the food, but don't add much as oils are more difficult to digetst. If Apple is thrashing when being fed,you ca wrap him snugly in a towel with with his front legs restrainted (ferret straight jacket. Do you know how to syringe feed properly. If not, there' a good link I'm posting at the end of this post. Bland foods, I've tried the baby food with water and he eat that Saturday morning, then 20mins later I tried to give the meds for the 2nd time and he threw it all up. So I didn't give any more Metro after that time. The Metro is from before, even though the vet didn't see any parasites. Also, I have all his poo starting from Thursday night in a baggie for the vet. I'll try the lamb, I've been using turkey so far. Anything else people food besides baby food that I can give him? Something with a thinner consistency that is still full of good stuff for him?? MEDS- since ECE is a virus, Meds will not affect the virus, but they're reuired to prevent secondary infection. It sunds like you have some metronidazole? If this is ECE, then te Metronidazole seems like verkill to prevent secondary infection, and it will e tough on the ummy (which is already distressed) as well. Social Responsibility as a ferret owner - Notify the shelter - they should NOT accept any more ferrets until you can confirm the probem either way...If they take ferrets in, those ferrts will be at risk for catching the disease. Older ferrets with health problems may not survive. DO **NOT ** RELAX WITH SUPPORTIVE TREATMENT EVEN IF APPLE SEEMS BETTER. I hear that ECE goes through various stages, and just because your ferret seems to be getting better, continue the feedings, pedialyte and meds. and watch your ferrets like a hawk!!!! The Metro is from 2 weeks ago but I kep having to be out of town for work and I didn't want to skip, then I paniced when I saw the green liquid on Friday night. I decided to just start it. However, stopped after the throw-up on Saturday. I am hoping for a tummy coater for Apple. Something not irritable, also something easy to give since I will be gone one night this week. The shelter I got Kiwi from only had her as a ferret, could she have gotten this from another animal? I don't know what she was in contact with the month she was there, and the week after Apple and I met her.. So should I call to alert them she may have contracted something from another animal? What should I say? The only other ferret is Kiwi, they are no longer in the same cage, but mostly same room. Apple won't play with her either, I occupy Kiwi while Apple sleeps by the A/C. However, Apple dooked yesterday morning when I let him out for a bit. So he feels a bit better, but poops are the same. Some are liquid, some slightly formed but still a jelly-texture. Thanks for the links, I'm going to read that tonight. If you have picks of syringe feeding I would really appreciate it. I use the towel method, but he still manages to get out, I want to make sure I am not suffocating him! Also, sticking it in his mouth while he moves it back and forth just gets it all over us. I usually stick it in the corner of his closed mouth and shoot some in, forcing him to swallow it. That used to work before he started to panic so much. I will update as much as I can! Thanks for all your help!
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 21, 2008 9:01:27 GMT -5
Apple threw up AFTER the Metro, however he's had that before back in February. So?? Hopefully he gives me something tastier! Giardia does sound a little likely right now. I'll talk to the vet about it. Alright, I am off to the vet! I will be back to update in 1.5-2 hours!! Thanks for the links too btw, I just read through most of those.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 21, 2008 11:49:49 GMT -5
I've got my fingers crossed, and I'm hoping this is not ECE. Clostridium can be pretty intense too. And there are a bunch of other possibilities as well.
Metronidazole is commonly given for giardia, but Panacur is also an option. I've found the Panacur to be less effective on my kids.
Let us know what you find out.
-jennifer
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Post by desertram on Jul 21, 2008 12:29:08 GMT -5
good luck hope apple is alright i am so sorry about it my internet was down it still isnt right wish i could have been here sat to help u out some ECE is not good it can be passed from one ferret to another its not known how they get it to me apple sound like he has a G.I. track just like what oso and his cage mates had i will keep my fingers crossed and all the kids have there paws crossed for apple too good luck
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 21, 2008 13:10:26 GMT -5
Thank you everyone! That vet trip took forever! I got there and I counted 15 pets in line in front of me! Theres about 5 vets that work there, but mine is most popular! Go figure! Anyway, around 1215pm I got in to see him. Another fecal showed no parasites! This is his poop from Friday afternoon through this morning. So I think I covered all that there could be. Though they still look practically the same, with little to no difference the past few days. The vet looked at me like I was crazy too when I said I was feeding Ensure. I explained why, and he agreed maybe he would get something, but not much. So thats about to stop. Maybe I will feed that with the Metro though. Not sure yet, he says I can mix that with whatever helps. As long as he gets it all. Here's what I got for him: Metoclopramide oral liquid, 3cc every 8 hours. keep using until he is eating and no longer vomiting. If that he starts to eat again, then start the Metro. I can use Metro and Meto at the same time if I want. 1 Centrine Injection 1 Amikacin 250mg/mL injection One of those is an antibiotic, I don't remember the other. Vet says if he is not better by end of week to bring him in for blood tests, he mentioned maybe it could be Eosinophilic gastroenteritis which I found on this site www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=11&cat=1284&articleid=533Thanks for that So if anyone has more info on that, I'd love to read it! Also, Apple weighs 2.25lb. What was the consensus on the kitten replacer milk? I bet that is better than Ensure! Apple is at home now since I know he will drink ok. Anyone know what those injections are? Now I don't remember which is the antibiotic and then what the other one is! Thank you guys!!
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