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Post by desertram on Jul 21, 2008 13:42:14 GMT -5
wow glad apple is doing really good glad u caught it in time that was scary for u and your BF sounds like apple is on the road to recover now. we have in the ferret tote ferret-aide incase they get sick its powder meds. that u put in there water plus we have a bottle of pedi lite on hand with lots of love and kisses he will be just fine lol give apple a kiss for me
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 21, 2008 15:56:22 GMT -5
Thanks, I bet he is doing much better. I'm going home within 20mins to see him again, and then its off on a long drive to Toledo (2.5hours!). I'll be giving the liquid tummy coater, it tastes orange (which makes me want a popsicle now) so I bet Apple will like it and that should really help him eat. Plus, I soaked up some kibble for him, hopefully he will drink it, or I can syringe it to him tonight along with kitten replacer milk.
I am not going to be online the rest of the night, or much of tomorrow. I will check back on here tomorrow (Tuesday) morning to update you on Apple's progress, and if you guys have any words of wisdom about the drugs and disease possibility.
I may be back online Wednesday night, but most likely Thursday night as I am out of town for work Wednesday night!
Talk to you guys then!
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 21, 2008 16:57:18 GMT -5
Metoclopramide - tummy meds Centrine Injection - an anti-emetic (sp???) anti-barf drug Amikacin 250mg/mL injection - antibiotic eosinophilic gastroenteriitis falls into the Irriable bowel disease IBD category. It tends to be something that flares up under stress. The only way to confim GE and relted issues is hrough biopsy. The bad part about EG is that it drugs don't get rid of it. the "good" part is that more and more evidence points toward diet. The is more true for EG than any of the other IBD issues. AND - the greatest dietary offender in this category is - you guessed it - CHICKEN!!!!! The EVo is chicken -based, so you may want to get rid of it. The NV rabbit, lamb, beef, and venison frozen diets contain no chicken. Can you possibly remove the EVO from Apple's diet? There are some no-chicken dry food options out there, but you may need to order these products. If this does tun out to any of the IBD's we nee to modify Apple' s diet with input from your vet as well. Here is a link to some EG info. www.miamiferret.org/fhc/eosinophilic.htmGotta run but will post more later jennifer
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 22, 2008 18:51:25 GMT -5
More info (stuff I forgot to mention since I was rushing in my last post).... Kitten Milk Replacer - The Brand is called KMR. PetSmart, Petco or any decent pet store will probably have it. I think I've even seen it in Walmart, but I wouldn't make a special trip there for it just in case they no longer carry it. IIt's available as a liquid or a powder that can be mixed with pedialyte. About the IBD's. As I had mentioned, there are several problems that fall into this category. Eosinophilic gastroenteristis is just one of the issues. Since Apple has had some troubles before (sensitivity to chicken), and since the IBD's (especially the EG) are affected by diet, you may want to look for non-chicken, no-grain foods. There are some kibbles that fall into this category, and there are also some freeze-dried optionas as well. The other thing is that the IBD's can have similar treatments (antibiotics and prednisone), so many people don't bother to have the biopsies done. They just try things the vet recommends and stick with what seems to work best. That's what we did with one of my first ferrets who had it years ago. They didn't know that food allergies were part of the picture back then. Please let me know what types of foods your interested in feeding Apple and I can dig up some options for you... there are some freeze-dried foods that might work. And there are also some grain-free, chicken-free kibble out there too. And more types of frozen diets are avaible along with raw meaty bones and whole prey. I hope Apple is feeling much better. I know how terrible it is when your gets really sick like that. Please keep us posted. -jennifer
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 23, 2008 12:37:18 GMT -5
First my update, then my comments for what you've said: Apple is doing wayyy better!! Its crazy! That replacer milk is a miracle! I've been giving him the orange liquid for his tummy every 8 hours mixed in with the replacer milk. Then I soaked his kibble in warm water and started mixing that with the replacer milk. I bought Pedialyte and put that in his water. Then I was giving Pedialyte/replacer milk/kibble water all together so he was getting a bunch of good stuff.
However, he still won't eat on his own. And up until late last night, his poops still looked yellow and just seeds. Last night there was one brown poop!! I was so excited, and this morning I saw another one. But in between there is still the yellow seedy poop. Either way, I am excited by how much he is eating from the syringe. I have a 24mL syringe that I refill almost 3 times every few hours. I use the 3-part mix I mentioned before.
AND THEN...yesterday evening I let him out while I cleaned up his (very smelly) litter box and he ran up the stairs! A full flight of stairs he just ran up it! I was so happy...and my sister was screaming...and my Mom was warning me to shut all the doors! LOL It was fantastic!! Anyway, he has a ton of energy. Then I just dropped him off at my apartment before I headed over to work (where I am now) and he was jumping and trying to engage me in play!!!! OMG!! He's so much better!!
OK. So now, I'm going to continue to feed him the replacer milk and watered kibble. I also bought some cat food (no its nothing that great), most of it is salmon flavored and wet food. But he won't touch his kibble so I'm willing to try almost anything to get him to touch food on his own again. He loves the salmon flavor, so I thought that might help.
This is what I bought him: 1 wet pouch of Wellness Cat Salmon/Chicken and 1 Turkey/Duck. 1 wet pouch of Purrrfect Fish Tuna, Purrrfect Fish Salmon, and some other Salmon can thingy. Yes they are all wet cat foods. But the way I see it, is if I can get him to lick at this stuff now, then I can easily mix in his old foods and slowly bring him back to his Evo. But he won't knowingly lick or eat anything from a bowl right now. I just need him to start eating on his own. I will be gone 2 days next week, so its uber important that he starts to eat on his own asap. I will be starting him on the Metro tonight I think. Still using the Meto though the first few days.
Any more ideas? I'm bringing Kiwi back to my apartment tonight, but will still keep them in separate cages until all of the Metro is gone. I was thinking of letting them play together for little spurts of time. Maybe 30mins and then putting Apple back in his cage for a nap. I don't want him to over exert himself and play too hard. Does this sound like a good idea??
Also, does this sound like he still could've had ECE? Or maybe some gastrointestinal thing that he just needed to recover from? I know he's not done recovering yet, but how much longer should I plan on his recuperation to be??
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 23, 2008 13:10:38 GMT -5
Metoclopramide - tummy meds Centrine Injection - an anti-emetic (sp???) anti-barf drug Amikacin 250mg/mL injection - antibiotic Thanks, I did forget what the Centrine was, and it seems to be working great! No throw up, and with the tummy coater I don't think he will again. What does that antibiotic injection cover? eosinophilic gastroenteriitis falls into the Irriable bowel disease IBD category. It tends to be something that flares up under stress. The only way to confim GE and relted issues is hrough biopsy. The bad part about EG is that it drugs don't get rid of it. the "good" part is that more and more evidence points toward diet. The is more true for EG than any of the other IBD issues. According to the vet Apple was on Metro back in April, this would have been just a few weeks into owning Apple and during his raw chicken phase. Easily very stressful plus eating the wrong food! I'd rather not do the biopsy if I don't have to. If I can alter his diet for him, that would be better. I should know, I also have IBS! LOL And I'm not on meds, just added fiber and changed my diet and I almost never have a problem! LOL Ohhh Apple! AND - the greatest dietary offender in this category is - you guessed it - CHICKEN!!!!! The EVo is chicken -based, so you may want to get rid of it. The NV rabbit, lamb, beef, and venison frozen diets contain no chicken. Can you possibly remove the EVO from Apple's diet? There are some no-chicken dry food options out there, but you may need to order these products. If this does tun out to any of the IBD's we nee to modify Apple' s diet with input from your vet as well. Well I've tried to keep most chicken out of Apple's diet. He is eating Evo Ferret, and he sooo likes it! But I also have Evo Red Meat which he also likes. I can give him that and then one other kibble? I'll save the Evo Ferret for Kiwi, but once I finish I won't buy anymore. Unless someone wants to trade foods with me at Buckeye Bash? I'll post in that thread! So Evo Red Meat bites and what other no-chicken, no-carb food is there? I prefer a kibble because I know he enjoys his NV lamb and rabbit, so I'd like to keep serving that. But I only serve that 7am, 4pm, and 10pm. In between I need other food to leave out and also to give as treats. So what other good high quality food can I choose from?? I guess I won't be feeding the Salmon/Chicken pouch anymore. I don't want to do blood tests or biopsy if I don't need to. So if there's a way to skip over thoroughly diagnosing this, and just applying diet changes, I would rather do that. Obviously if things continue going downhill that won't be an option. But right now its looking positive!
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 23, 2008 13:36:55 GMT -5
I'm really hoping the diet change will fix everything! If my memory serves me correctly, Amikacin is a broad-spectrum antibiotic, so it's probably being perscribed to prevent and/or treat any secondary infection.
The blood work (CBC) is actually good to have done on a yearly basis. Once my kids hit 4, I have it done 2 times per year even if nothing's going on. My vet just gives them a quick whiff of gas (isoflurane) to get them good and sleepy (but not enough to knock rthem out). Then the blood is easy to take from the neck. The ferrets don't even know of care what happened.
The biopsy - talk that over with your vet if he even mentions it. If he's pushing for it, ask him why. And if he says something about determining which type of IBS is involved, ask him if the treatments for the different types of IBS are different. SOmetimes treatments are similar (unless there are new data about the disease and treatments we don't know about), so knowing exactly which problem you're dealing may be a moot point unless things continue to get worse. Let him know your preferences.
Let me look into some of the no-grain, no-chicken diets for you. It's been a while since I've looked into this. I know some other people who have IBS/IBD ferrets so I can check with them as well.
-jennifer
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 23, 2008 13:41:40 GMT -5
About the IBD's. As I had mentioned, there are several problems that fall into this category. Eosinophilic gastroenteristis is just one of the issues. Since Apple has had some troubles before (sensitivity to chicken), and since the IBD's (especially the EG) are affected by diet, you may want to look for non-chicken, no-grain foods. There are some kibbles that fall into this category, and there are also some freeze-dried optionas as well. The other thing is that the IBD's can have similar treatments (antibiotics and prednisone), so many people don't bother to have the biopsies done. They just try things the vet recommends and stick with what seems to work best. That's what we did with one of my first ferrets who had it years ago. They didn't know that food allergies were part of the picture back then. Please let me know what types of foods your interested in feeding Apple and I can dig up some options for you... there are some freeze-dried foods that might work. And there are also some grain-free, chicken-free kibble out there too. And more types of frozen diets are avaible along with raw meaty bones and whole prey. KMR is exactly what I bought, I bought the powder ($30!), so I can mix it up later for Kiwi because she's a little thin. I can feel her rib cage. I'd prefer a little more weight on her! Anyway, I'd like to stick away from the biopsy, bloodwork too if possible. No idea how much that would cost, but if its possible to just treat this with a diet change, I would prefer to go that route. If Apple doesn't improve by Friday the vet wanted me to come back for bloodwork, however Apple IS getting better. I want to start the Metro tonight, continue the Meto another few days and then finish the Metro next week. Hopefully by then Apple will be back to himself completely and ok to play with Kiwi! However I may call the vet and talk to him about a diet change to no chicken no grains kibble. Try that for awhile, however I don't see any high stress in Apple's future for a long time. I'm not moving for at least a few years, no more ferrets until I live in a bigger apartment or house (way in the future), and thats it! Is predisone a shot? Like monthly? How expensive is that? Would it help him more than just a diet change? Or would a diet change be a significant help?? I would prefer to stick with a chicken-free, grain-free kibble, not freeze-dried. Also if there are other raw frozen diets to choose from for variety, that would be great. I may start adding more raw meats to his diet. I can get rabbit and other game meats at a local market. They will not be cheapt, but variety will be good for them! Plus I know he's eaten rabbit and lamb! Next up is venison. Thanks so much for your help! I am also searching other ferret foods to see what is available to me. Thank you so much!!
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 23, 2008 23:04:39 GMT -5
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 24, 2008 7:54:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the compliments of my ferrenting skills!
I'm so sorry to hear about your friend! Please take the time you need to be with your friends and family! I will be here next week!
Thanks for finding me some kibble options, and now that I think about it, maybe freeze-dried isn't so bad? I mean as long as it doesn't start melting during the day, then it would be fine! The freeze-dried meats I make in my freezer start to rehydrate after awhile, so thats not cool!
I'll call the vet tomorrow to update him. I'm sure we may be ok not doing bloodwork if I mention my thoughts on his diet change. I think it is worth trying with Apple, even with the possibility it could still be other things. It would still be good to get him on more meats, than kibbles.
Thanks so much! I will be thinking of you and your family/friends!
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 24, 2008 13:03:56 GMT -5
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 24, 2008 23:45:32 GMT -5
Go Pear!!!!! Surf's up, and you can hang ten with the best of them!
Between the two of us, we'll get Apple started on some new stuff in no time.
Don't know if Apple will need to stay away from all poultry.. we may need to do some trial and error, but I'll see if I can find any info on this. Even if we reduce the amount of poultry it will be a good thing. There's a good lesson in this for everyone...variety helps prevent over-exposure to any one thing, which is more likely to result in allergy.
-jennifer
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Post by pear2apple on Jul 28, 2008 12:45:08 GMT -5
Well good news everyone, Apple is back on his diet! He's starting to eat the raw again just like before, seems to like it even better! He's still on the Metro and I'm going to call the vet today to update him on his progress. His poops are still a little tan and not quite as formed as I would like, but he is eating and playing and has all his energy back. Also, no longer going out of town this week, so I can continue the meds without interruption!
As soon as I find his no-chicken no-grain foods, I can really get him on the best diet ever! Plus more raw meats, I'd like to add as well.
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Post by weloveourweasels on Jul 28, 2008 21:07:55 GMT -5
The Metro will do that do the poops because it is getting rid of both he good and bad bacteria. After he is done I would give him a little bit of organic plain yogurt once or twice a day. I just mixed up a thing with about a 2 teaspoons of yogurt and some nupro supplement. They like it without the nupro as well. Maybe Heather or someone else could tell you exactly how much would be OK to give. The yogurt has good bacteria which will help his gut.
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Post by amyandfuzzies6 on Jul 31, 2008 15:46:16 GMT -5
I've had ECE circulate through my house years ago and although it sounds similar and I don't think it is. Have you heard anything additional from the vet?
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