Kayla & Eden's Big Switch

[halbear]

Hey Heather!! How are you? I'm sorry I haven't posted in a while, I have been so busy. The little girls are doing well. They have been eating good! I will have to give the ACV a try because it has been getting pretty warm out. Some days have been in the lower 90's here. Thank God for air conditioning!
Well, all is well in my world I hope the same goes for you! I'll talk to you soon!!!

[Heather]

:DThings are doing well, busy...oh so busy
How are you're guys eating. Could you post me a weeks diet list? Maybe, we can get you graduated How about it? I will be checking in tomorrow evening.
Talk at you later.
ciao

[halbear]

Hey Heather!! The girls are eating very well!! A typical weeks diet consists of that soup mixture recipe that you sent me made up of the chicken hearts, livers, meat, bones, eggs, pumpkin, etc. I have been waiting for the store I go to to get quail in because I am going to get them on a mix of some days quail, some days chicken, etc. Hopefully in the near future I will be able to order them some frozen mice, rats, etc. and also make a soupy mixture out of that. I am so happy at all of the progress we have made over the last several months!
I would be excited to graduate, just as long as I know you'll always be there if I have any questions about the girls. (I'm just kidding, I know you always will )
It has truly been a pleasure working with you Heather.
Could you please PM me your address, because I would like to send you something.
I look forward to talking to you soon!
Cristina and the fuzz butts!!!

[Heather]

Ahhh, you haven't got rid of me that easily
We have to get your guys eating 3 or more protein types before we can graduate you. Quail would indeed be a good next try. Another protein source you might try is pork, turkey is easily accessable too. The mix with mice and rats would also provide you with a good protein alternative, so you're still stuck with me yet
I'm always available even after you graduate. You can pm me anytime and I think you have my actual email too.
I will be talking with you when you pop back in and we can discuss where you want to take this next step of your raw feeding adventure.
ciao

[halbear]

Hey Heather!! I don't want to get rid of you.
You truly have changed my babies lives around! I would never want to get rid of you...
I will definitely add in other proteins. If I buy a whole quail or a whole turkey can I follow the same soupy recipe, using the chicken hearts, liver, pumpkin, eggs, etc.? I do have access to whole turkey all the time, quail is available sometimes, but what could be a third meat?
If I buy the frozen mice and rats and make a soupy mixture out of them, would I put them through the grinder with hair and all? Would I follow the same soup recipe as above?
Basically my little girls are stubborn. They still "prefer" to be hand fed, and they really don't seem to have any interest in eating whole meats. I wish I could change this. I have tried giving them whole meats soo many times. I even tried to doctor it up with ferretone several times, but they had absolutely no interest.
I would love to explore other meat options, as I am sure that they are tired of just eating chicken.
Thank you Heather for always being there. I'm sorry if I haven't been around too much lately. Life has been so incredibly busy. I look forward to taking it up another level with the little girls! I hope to talk to you soon!!!

[Heather]

You don't have to apologize for being too busy, I totally understand.
Yes, as long as you can get stuff through the grinder you can grind up your little girls dinners (that includes mice and rats if you're up to it :. Yes, that's fur and all...tails too
Ok, your girls love their soupy right? Let's try a little trick and see if we can get them eating a little bit larger pieces of meat. Take a couple of pieces of meat but put it through your grinder on the coarsest grind. If you're already doing this, then try adding a couple of chunks that are just a bit larger (like a finger nail trimming) and see if your little ones will try that. No larger though. Obviously, your little ones are a little finicky and we don't want to rock the boat too much....just a little You mention that your little ones like to be hand fed....are they not eating from the bowl?
As far as other protein sources, you could use pork, beef, fish, rabbit, veal (I've found my guys prefer this to beef, same animal but not same flavour). Those are a few easily attained protein sources. Lamb and goat are another couple that are easily accessed. That would cover your 3 protein sources easily...it just depends on if your little Ladies will eat it or not
I will be checking in again tomorrow. Good luck and when you go shopping take a look around at all the meats that you have available and see if your furbabies might actually eat some of them.
ciao

[halbear]

Oh man, I might have a tough time grinding and chopping up little mice and rats. I will try to stomach it. Just as soon as money permits, I plan to place an order on rodentpro to order some mice and chicks and rats and stuff. Is that the only way to order them, or do you know of a place to order them where they already come pre chopped up?
The girls are okay on their soupy for a little while, but I will probably make up another batch in less than a week. When I make that batch, I will probably make 2 more as well. Hopefully one will be quail, and the other well I'm not quite sure yet. I will let you know what I decide.
When I make up their soupy mixture, I will try putting a couple of pieces of meat through the coarsest grind and then I'll mix the chunks in with their meal. The girls sure are finicky. I have tried slipping meat in their before, but they usually won't go for it if it's too big, so I will try finger nail trimming sized chunks to see if they go for it. Kayla usually will, it's Eden that I worry about.
About them being hand fed, they definitley prefer to be fed the soupy from either my finger or the spoon, but they do eat from the plate too. Kayla usually eats from the plate with no problem, Eden on the other hand is a bit more difficult. I usaully have to start her off with the spoon and then move to the plate. I have found that it works best if I try to feed them both at the same time, then they usually both eat from the plate. Maybe they think, well if she's eating it then so will I?
I might try fish. Do you recommend any particular type? Should I stay away from salmon because of the mercury levels? What about tilapia or cod?
I was also thinking about duck? What do you think?
Well, I will let you know when I go shopping for their food. I am going to try to get in their this weekend, but money has been tight. In any case, I'll talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

I've heard that they're really smelly I don't know though. Look up haretoday they're another raw food supplier. I don't know of anyone off hand but the problem is that there is noone who will ship to Canada so I usually don't really look. It might be something worth posting in the general questions part of the ferret nutrition board.
I feed a premade mix, it's cheaper than buying it store bought. I don't think for the amount that these guys are going to eat that you really have to worry too much. No, salmon is probably a poor choice as there are some sort of parasite in the meat (you can get rid of it by freezing for 2 or so weeks). I think there is salmon and cod in my fish mix but it's comes frozen (it's in pattiees) so I don't worry. I don't see why talapia or cod wouldn't work. I know that one of my students uses haretoday and is very happy with the product, another uses rodentpro and is happy too. I think the only thing is the distance increases your cost (shipping)
Truthfully, you probably haven't found the ultimate meat for Eden . Babushka (my 10 yr old) is like that. She couldn't really care, and will sometimes sleep through most of the day. If she wakes and finds the food bowl empty or not quite to her taste she will just hop back into the nearest hammy, silly little girl I then have to go find her and hand feed, well, I start her off and let her sit on my lab and eat her dinner on the dining room table. Last night I gave everyone whole rabbit pieces, she actually got into a bit** war with Pooka over this rabbit piece and she was really into it. Everytime Pooka came near her she'd hiss and give these little warning chirps. She will do the same thing for mice and rats but she really couldn't care less if there's chicken necks available, and please don't offer her quail the picky little thing
Let me know if you get any success by adding a couple of finger nail sized pieces... You might try thickening up the soupy a bit and seeing if they will eat it a little dryer too.
I will check in with you later.
ciao

[halbear]

I couldn't agree with you more about not finding the right meat for Eden. I was just thinking about that the other day. She really doesn't seem to like it much.
I am going to go on a meat run some time this week to make more soupy. They are almost out of their food packets. I am going to try the tilapia and the quail, hopefully they go for it! I haven't been able to get up to the organic store as it is about 30 min from home. I will be going up that way though in the next couple of days. I did see some cornish game hens at another store the other day, and was thinking of trying that. What is your take on that? I'm not sure if Eden would go for that either?
I checked the haretoday website, and they do ship here so I am going to order from them. I was thinking of purchasing ground duck, ground pheasant, ground mice, ground chicken, and ground rabbit. Each of them include the whole animal ground up with bones and all, but the ground rabbit can either come with or without the fur. Should I get it with the fur? They also have something called white fish, but before I order that I am going to see if they will eat the tilapia first.
I will let you know when I get the quail and tilapia! I'll talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

Try anything your little heart desires . Just don't buy a whole lot of something before you know if they will eat it. Rabbit is a common one that everyone appears to enjoy. In fact little Mischief (long ago departed) would only eat rabbit for the longest time. It seemed to sit well on his ulcers. Quail has always been a favourite here (except for Babushka). I've never tried pheasant (just never had the opportunity). I wish that some of these raw feeding suppliers would actually ship up here, but then the cost of shipping and handling would probably kill us Could you imagine the poor sods at the border....mouse?? Turkey is quite often a good choice too. I gather mouse is a stronger tasting meat but all my guys love it once they've had a taste. In fact they will even turn down quail for mouse. Talapia is supposed to be a fairly mild tasting fish so yes, give it a try. Why not, if they won't eat it at least you can eat it yourself This is very much a trial and error thing. The thing is that you can mix proteins to get them used to a taste or just add it as the primary protein to your soupy mix. Once you get this far there are multiple ways of going at this.
If you can get ground whole animal, skin, fur, bone...it's the best for them, especially if they will eat it. At least it's the best if all you can get them to eat is ground. See, I'm a firm believer in that grinding though not the best is 100 x better than kibble. So your guys may never get to the chunked version of meat, or whole meats or even prey but they are reaping some of the benefits and that's all that counts...right
Let me know what you decide to try. Talk at you later
ciao

[halbear]

Hey Heather!!So I finally ordered the little girls their food! Hopefully it will be here in the next couple of days! I ordered a little bit of the rabbit, mouse, chicken, pheasant, and a small thing of pork. The cost of shipping is out of this world. It is almost as much as the actual meat. I guess it's because they are located way up north, and it is a bit more difficult to ship to Florida with all of this heat.
Yes, I have come to accept that my babies may never get to the chunked version of meat, but I am okay with that because you are right. The ground food is 100x better than kibble.
I will let you know when the shipment arrives! I'm so excited for them to try new meats! I'm especially excited to find one that Eden likes! The meats do come pre ground, but I will probably need to supplement all of them with chicken hearts and livers and eggs right? Should I also add pumpkin to the ones that do not come with the hair?
In any case, I hope your week is going great and I'll talk to you soon!!!

[Heather]

That is so fantastic. Good selection. Now don't those foods come with organs and everything? So you shouldn't have to add anything. You may want to continue adding their pumkin just because it's a flavour they recognise and enjoy.
Now, I've heard a couple of people mention that the mouse was quite often turned down and there had to be a bit of spoon feeding and I even had one actually mix tiny bits in their regular food to start getting them used to it. I think it must be quite a strong flavour. I know that the guys know the instant I pull them out to defrost and they go crazy trying to get into the back room in the basement. Odin actually got back there one time and he just put his nose in the air and followed.
Actually don't be surprised if your turned down flat at first. I've found mixing small amounts in their regular fair and gradually adding more works very well. They may go for it right off let them have a try but...I just want you to be prepared just in case . They are after all ferrets
I really hope that you find a meat for Eden
Good luck and I will be talking at you soon
ciao

[halbear]

Hey! Yes, the foods do come with the organs, but probably just a couple of hearts, livers, etc. definitely not as much as I put in when I make the soupy from scratch. Should I add a few more hearts and livers? Is the pumpkin helpful to them in any way? I thought that it sort of acted like or replaced the fur, is that correct? Should I add eggs to the mix as well like I usually do?
I will definitely take note of the mouse. I hope they go for it on the first try, but if not I will not give up. I may try mixing it in with their chicken if they don't go for it.
That is too funny that Oden knew right where to go!! They sure to have an impeccable sense of smell!!
I spoke to Tracy at hare today yesterday (that sounds funny!! ) and she said that my order is not going to be shipped out until Monday because they are out of rabbit. Can you believe it? I was shocked that "Hare Today" was actually out of rabbit. In any case, it should be here by Thursday of next week.
On another note, the girls had some tilapia this morning. At first it was a no go, but once I doctored it up with some Vivify Emu Oil by totally ferret, they both ate a little bit. There was definitely alot of coercion however, and even a bit of scruffing so that they could taste it before they turned it down. They tend to do that with knew things. They just smell it, turn their nose up at it, look as me like I'm crazy, and turn away. Thy are too cute. Overall, they seemed to like it somewhat and I think it will just take some time for them to get used to it.
Tonight we are having chicken with a few chunks of tilapia slipped in!! Bon appetite!!!
I will let you know when the order arrives. I am very excited for them to try the new meats!!
The only thing I had a question about was the pork I ordered. I'm not sure if I had mentioned that, but their pork was on sale so I ordered some and now I am afraid to give it to them because of all the talk about the swine flu going around. I know they say it is only airborne, but I can't help but wonder if raw pork carries any of the harmful bacteria and stuff. Not sure if you know! I'll talk to you soon!! Have a great weekend!!

[Heather]

First off....don't worry about eating pork. The swine flu (they're going to change the name because the pork industry is dying fast) is transmitted as an airborne virus, not by eating the meat. You may indeed be able to get some really good prices considering there are a lot of either very ill informed people or a lot of people just not listening to what the experts are telling them. That's why it's now moving from person to person....airborne twice as virulent. It's always been an air virus, even when it was first discovered back in the early 60's.
My guys are like that too about new foods. Some of them have now learned that sometimes interesting things come in the bowls even if it does smell different but most of them have to be tricked into trying it. I liken the little sods to 2 or 3 yr old skin kids. If it's not presented in the manner they're used to seeing it they won't even try old standbys .
Look at the food, if you think it needs more offal than add it. I can't see where the pumpkin would harm them one way or another, it's just fiber. I know some people actually claim that they do benefit from the veggie matter. Who am I to say, it's just harmless and it's not like your giving it to them in an amount that would constitute a veggie meal....so why not. If they start to like the meat with the fur in....start weaning back on the pumpkin. The fewer things that are different the more they will accept the food.
Good luck, do let me know what happens with your new foods. I'm really curious to see how they do.
ciapo

[halbear]

Hey Heather! I have been out of town for the past week, which is why I haven't posted in a while. Sorry...
Thanks for clarifying about the pork!! Ya, I really haven't been following it, so I wasn't sure what to expect. I myself don't eat very much pork.
I thought that ferrets were supposed to stay away from veggie matter because they lack a cecum which they need in order to digest the veggies. Also, are they supposed to be getting fiber? I guess I always thought that they were not really supposed to get that.
In any case, I will add more offal if its needed. There food shipment came yesterday, and since I just got home today I'm pretty tired so I plan to make them their soupy tomorrow.
I am crossing my fingers that they will take to the different meats. I think I will first try the rabbit and then the mouse because you said the mouse probably has a stronger taste. I don't want to introduce too much too soon so that they are overwhelmed.
I will let you know how they do with the new meats. I'll talk to you soon!!!