Kayla & Eden's Big Switch

[halbear]

1. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names, ages, genders, and do they have any health problems (this is VERY important)?

I currently have two female ferrets named Kayla and Eden. Kayla just turned six years old and Eden just turned five years old. They were both given a blood glucose test which indicated that there glucose levels were low. Their vet diagnosed them with insulinoma and they are both currently on a prednisone suspension two times daily.

2. What are your ferrets currently eating? Include their main diet, plus any treats or supplements (such as duk soup).

My ferrets are currently eating Purina DM (Dietetic Management) as recommended by my veterinarian. I mix the ferret supplement Nupro with their food on a daily basis.

3. What kind of diet do you want to switch to?

I know that my ferrets are elderly in age, but I really want to switch them to a raw or whole prey diet. I just want them to be on a more natural and healthy diet and off of the processed stuff.

4. Why do you want to switch to this more natural diet?

I was given bad information for so many years, and it was only recently that I heard about the raw/natural diet. It truly pangs my heart that I did not find this out earlier as my babies mean everything to me, and I cannot imagine life without them. I want them to live a healthier and more fulfilled life.

5. Where/what/who got you interested in natural diets?

I came across this information after conducting some internet research on supplements to add to my fur babies diets.

6. Please list the current weight for your ferret(s). Do they appear overweight? Underweight? How is there muscle tone?

Kayla weighs approximately 1.5lbs, and Eden weighs approx 1.7lbs. In my opinion, they both are slightly underweight and could stand to gain some more weight. Eden appears to have pretty good muscle tone, but Kayla appears to be lacking in that area.

7. What is the condition of your ferret's teeth/gums? (can you get a picture?)

Eden’s gums appear to be healthy, but Kayla’s gums appear to be a little red. Kayla’s teeth are yellowing and she has some tartar/plaque buildup. Eden’s teeth are slightly yellow, not too much tartar/plaque buildup. Please see pictures below. I apologize if the pictures are not too clear, they were both being fussy and really did not want to sit still.
Kayla's Gums:


Eden's Gums:


8. Describe the texture/color of your ferrets coat.

Both of my babies are Cinnamon in color. Kayla’s coat is soft, but gradually over the last year had gotten drier. Eden’s coat is very coarse and appears dry. They are both starting to lose hair on their tails, and my veterinarian says that it could either be adrenal disease or follicle plugging. As recommended by my veterinarian, both of my babies have received a melatonin implant every four months for the past three years.

9. How often does your ferret go to the bathroom?

Alot! Approx 6 or so times per day. This would be another benefit of he raw or whole prey diet. Less fecal output would mean that their bodies would be absorbing more nutrients which in turn would lead to better overall health.

10. Does your ferret's feces and/or urine smell?

Their fecal matter does smell on occasion. On occasion their poop can be runny or seedy which may indicate improper digestion.

11. Smell your ferret. How strong is their odor?

Their odor is not that strong. (It may sound weird but I actually like their aroma as I find it comforting)

12. On a scale of 1-10, 1 being completely lethargic and 10 being "through the roof!" what is your ferret's energy level?

I would have to say that Kayla’s energy level would be a 2 and Eden’s energy level would be a 3. This worries me a lot because when they were younger they used to very energetic.

13. How excited is your ferret about meal time (when fed kibble)?

They are not especially excited since the kibble is kept out around the clock.

14. Have you attempted to switch from kibble to a natural diet in the past? If so, what methods have you tried. Be specific.

I have not yet tried to switch, I truly want to commit to the switch but I am not sure what approach to take, and I am worried that they may not accept the new diet and I do not want to fast them for too long since they have insulinoma. Also, I know ferrets bodies are different from humans in that they can easily tolerate raw foods such as chicken which carries salmonella, but I still worry about them getting sick. I want to get over this fear I just need the proper guidance and help.

15. What other information about your ferret(s) would you like to share?

I would just like to say that both of my little girls are very kind, loving, and intelligent babies. I truly love them with all of my heart and I want to do anything I can for them to extend their life, and to make them happy and healthy from the inside out. I know that my particular situation or case might be harder and more difficult due to the ages of my babies, but I want you to know that I would be forever greatly for guidance and wisdom on this matter.

16. If you can, please post a clear photograph of EACH of your ferrets directly below:
Eden:


Eden:


Kayla:


Kayla:


17. a.) Do you understand that by starting this thread you commit to posting updates on the progress of your ferret(s) diet switch atleast every other day?**

Yes, I understand as I am fully committed to the switch and this process.

b.) Do you understand that if you will be away from your computer for an extended period of time you will need to exchange phone numbers (via private message) with your assigned mentor, so that we can monitor your progress and ensure your ferret's saftey during the switch?

Yes, I fully understand and would be happy to provide a telephone number to communicate with my mentor.

c.) Do you understand that any threads that have not been updated in for more then a week (with no explaination as to why you are absent) will result in the deletion of the thread?***

Yes, I understand as lack of response would indicate that the person is not committed to this process.

[Heather]

Hi
I'm Heather, and we're going to be working together for the next little while trying to convince your furbabies to change to a healthier diet
I've been feeding a raw/natural diet for a little over 10 yrs. I have a small private rescue/sanctuary where all ferrets turned into me are switched immediately over to a raw diet that consists of ground raw/whole meats or frankenprey/ and prey diet. At present every ferret eats this full range of diets. I don't keep kibbles in the house All my furbabies are free roaming and have access to an outdoor play area that they can access at will. At present there are 14 little fuzzbutts who call this their permanent home. They range in ages of about 2 yrs to my little senior citizen, Babushka who is coming up on 10 yrs (she by the way has been my biggest raw switch challenge, which had me at times wondering why I was doing this to her) Now completely switched and putting on a beautiful dark black coat, teeth that are now nicely cleaned up, and she actually has a lot of fun investigating the house (she used to do nothing but sleep when she first was turned in). She has made me aware that every ferret no matter how old, can get a new lease on life by eating a species appropriate diet
I'm attaching a copy of a couple of suggested diet switching methods. I'm going to let you choose the one that you think you would be the most comfortable using to switch your babies. As your furbabies already have health issues, there will be no witholding of food to make them hungry. We will go at this very softly.
The first method specified here, I am not fond of but will use it if this is what you want to do. The second method is my favourite switching tool and one that I've had the most success with. Please be aware that you may not be able to do a complete raw switch as your furbabies were diagnosed with insulinoma. My little Zena was diagnosed with insulinoma and I never had to give her kibbles during the time that we were treating her for it. Unfortunately, she passed away to a very aggressive brain tumour so I was never able to see how successful feeding raw was to being able to control her insulinoma (she was diagnosed with inulinoma in the spring of 2007 and passed away about 1 yr later. She had access to raw food 24/7 just like she would have had with kibble so maybe I wouldn't have ever had to resort to the kibbles. My vet was very impressed with how raw stabilized her, so, we'll just have to wait and see .

1. You can slowly transition them to kibble that has been moistened with water. The goal is to get them used to eating kibble that is so soaked in water that you can mash it with a fork into a "canned catfood" consistency. That is step one. I'll provide the further steps if you want to go this way.

2. You can try to get them to eat a raw soup immediately. You will need a blender/food processor, and the following raw items:

8 oz raw chicken thigh meat (including skin and fat)
1 tsp of crushed eggshell powder (take a raw eggshell. Rinse it out. Let it dry. Crush to powder)
1 raw chicken heart
1/2 raw chicken liver
Water (use more to make it soupier, less to make it thicker)

Blend ingredients together. Some prefer it at room temp. Try putting a dollop of "soup" onto your ferret's nose and they probably will lick it off. I use my finger. Sometimes this takes a little bit trying to convince them that you're not trying to poison them I find within a very short time they're licking this off my finger. When I see that they're willing to eat freely off my finger then I use a small spoon to try and get them to eat from that. Try to get them eating the soupy on their own. It might pique their interest. If they absolutely refuse to try the soupy, suck some of it up into the syringe. Use the guide below to get them eating the soup from the syringe:

forum.ferret.com/tm.asp?m=27179

I'm not a big fan of syringe feeding and don't use it, but I feel that you should be aware of all your options. My biggest fear when feeding through a syringe is aspiration.

Most ferrets will willingly eat the food once they actually TASTE it, so the only struggle you *should* encounter is them not wanting to taste it. Please also be aware that after years of kibbles they aren't aware that what you're offering them is indeed food. Once they willingly eat from the syringe, or your finger and spoon, work to try and get them eating this out of a dish or plate.

Each time you make your soupy, use a little less water to make it thicker/chunkier. Replace soup with fresh soup every 4-6 hours. You can make a large batch if you like and freeze into ice cubes or cupcake trays. Then you just thaw a portion and serve. OR you can put a frozen "cube" into their bowl and let it slowly thaw.

Let me know which method you'd like to go with. This is a good way to slowly ease them into wet foods. I use this second method to switch all my furbabies and I've personally switched approximately 25 ferrets of my own in the last few years.
Anyway, if you have any questions or qualms, I will check in with you tomorrow and hopefully will answer your questions then. IF you can read over the methods, think about what you would like to try and we will get this whole raw thing started. Please remember that there are many different ways of switching ferrets, probably as many ways as there are ferrets and ferret slaves
ciao

[halbear]

Heather,
I'm excited to be working with you, and I thank you in advance for helping me and my little girls. I would like to try the second method since you have had alot of success at it. I went out and bought the chicken liver and the chicken thigh meat, but the thigh meat did not have any skin on it. I went to several stores to find a chicken heart, but nobody sells them. Where to you find yours? Are there any reputable websites to order them from? If so, is the meat still frozen when it arrives at your door?

I know ferrets are different than us humans, but I guess I still worry a little bit about bacteria and diseases from the meat.

I am so sorry about your little Zena. Just know that she is in a much better place now at Rainbows Bridge. I too have had a ferret that crossed over to the bridge three years ago. Her name is Hallie, and not a day goes by that I don't miss her, but I have faith that she is in a much better place free from all pain. She was diagnosed with adrenal disease, and the doctor recommended surgery. She made it through the surgery but she passed the next day. The doctor said it was likely a blood clot to the heart.Needless to say my world was turned upside down. I created a website for her if you are interested. The link is:
rainbowsbridge.com/residents/HALLI001/Resident.htm

I think it is great that you fur babies get to roam free both indoors and out. I wish I could let my babies outdoors, but I live in Florida and I don't think they could tolerate the heat. I do plan to let them outdoors in a couple months when it cools off. They have a neat little outdoor house I built a couple years back!!
I will definitely go at it slowly, but I hope we can get them to successfully convert to a completely raw diet. Again, I thank you for all of your help and I will talk to you soon!!

Cristina

[Heather]

Hi Cristina
What a lovely tribute site. for Hallie. I lost a little girl named Pandora to a botched adrenal surgery, so I can certainly sympathize with your pain. Florida, sounds wonderful in the winter time...at the moment I don't think I would trade you. I'm having a difficult enough time with Ike (high winds at the moment and a heavy rain warning tonight) that I don't think I would like to deal with your hurricane season Of course you can laugh at me when I'm complaining about having to dig out a ton of snow later. The temperature here today is in the mid 30's....90 F I believe if you convert. My guys are sleeping in the open tunnel that leads to their play area, it's in the shade and they wind is ruffling their fur so they seem to be very comfy They also like to play out in the snow on the warmer days in the winter. I keep a very close eye on the temp at both ends of the spectrum. When the temp gets too high (close up the house and the airconditioner is put on) or too low (then they're not allowed to play outside or only for very short periods of time). One of the things I've found with allowing them to free roam is they're much more sensible than when they're caged. If they find it uncomfortable they will go find another place to be.
Ok....food..you couldn't find chicken heart...soooo you can get artificial supplement taurine which comes in capsules and you can add that to their meat. The hearts are better and they love them so, that I would continue looking. I can get mine from the grocery and when they're short I can order them from the butcher. I also get ground chicken and turkey with bone from my butcher. Some will do this for you and it's always good to look into it as it will make your life much easier in the long run Chicken with skin on is better than off as they need the skin and fat to help them keep that beautiful fur coat in top shape. Again, don't worry about this when we're first starting out but keep looking. Chances are you will find a supplier, it just may take a bit of time.
Ok...bacteria and other icky things
Ferrets are created to handle most bacterias. Things like salmonella and such require an incubation period of about 6 to 8 hrs in the digestive track. For us this can make us very ill, that's why you should be careful handling the food. For them....the turn around is maximum 4 hrs. So the bacteria is in and out of their system faster than it can proliferate.
I will check in on you to see if you've started your adventure into raw feeding and see if you have any questions. Please ask away, there is no such thing as a stupid question.... nor one asked too many times
Talk at you soon
ciao

[halbear]

Heather,
Thank you! Yes, Hallie's website really means alot to me. I am so sorry about your little Pandora. It is very hard to deal with the loss of a little fur baby.
Yes, Florida is just too darn hot!! I can't wait for it to cool down here. Your little babies play area sound really neat! I wish I could do something like that here.
I am still looking for the chicken hearts. I must have called around 20 or so butchers and none of them sold chicken hearts except for two, and both happened to be out of them at the moment. It is amazing that nobody sells them. I thought for sure that the local butchers would have had them. I even looked on the internet for a reputable website but I could not find one. I am going to go hunt for the taurine capsules today. I have taurine but it is in a tablet form.
It makes sense what you had said about the ferret digetive track being able to handle the bacteria. I feel much better about it all now!!

I plan to make them the soup tonight after I find the taurine capsules. Should I add a whole capsule or just part of a capsule to the soup?
Also, if they don't want to eat it would you recommend adding any tasty supplement such as fish oil, ferretone, etc. I have read that fish oil is better than ferretone, but where could I purchase it? I have fish oil capsules but they are probably to concentrated and potent. In any case I will check back to see what the proper dosage of the taurine supplement is. Again, thank you for all of your help thus far!!!

Cristina

[halbear]

Heather,
I lucked out after all. I tried another grocery store today and I found a package of chicken hearts!!
I also bought a small bottle of taurine powder just in case I might need it. Should I add any powder to the soup or will the taurine in the chicken hearts be sufficient? Also, is one egg shell per ferret the appropriate amount to use for the powder?
I am going to make the soup this evening and I will let you know how it turns out!

Cristina

[Heather]

You have to wonder what everyone does with all those chicken hearts they're like gold , the country certainly eats enough chicken. I buy them whenever I see them and then freeze them for when I need them next. How much of your raw soupy are you making? I would just use the natural (hearts), save your taurine for times when you don't have hearts.
The amount of egg shell is 1 tsp per 1lbs of meat or mix, ground like a powder.
Your fish oil capsule could do the job, I would use about 1 capsule (poke a hole in it and squeeze it out) per pound...you will loose some when you squeeze the oil out. I use a marine fish oil, small fish (less likely to be contaminated with psp's and such) or I also use a marine oil called Arctic Vigor, it's available online or at least it was available. I now have a local supplier and haven't had to order it in a few years.
Be prepared for your little girls to treat this like absolute poison My little Babushka (turned into me this spring at 9 yrs of age) spat, gagged, wiggled and basically glared at me as I proceeded to repeatedly put little dabs of food on her nose throughout the day . I actually had to scruff her to begin with as I couldn't even catch her head after the first few dibbles. She eventually, was licking it off my finger and then out of a spoon. She's now eating whole prey like a real little trouper, though she really prefers ground turkey and chicken necks.
Good luck, let me know how it goes
ciao

[halbear]

Heather,
I am very happy to report that the girls ate some of the soup!! At first, they looked at me like I was crazy but I scruffed them and put a tiny bit on their tounge. Once they tasted the mixture, they immediately started to lick it off of my finger. After several finger fulls each I am guessing they had their fill because they kept wiggling to get down. I am so proud!! I am very shocked that they took to it so quickly!!
Since they both have insulinoma, should I still leave dry food out? Also, how long can I leave the soup out for before it goes bad? After the soup been out for a while should I just throw it away?
I made a semi-large batch and froze some in the cupcake pan as you had suggested. That was a great idea by the way!! It is so much easier to make a large batch all at once and freeze the rest until you need it!!
I have one other question. My litttle girls love to give me kisses. Will this be a problem since they are now eating raw food. I guess I am worried that their mouths may have the bacteria from the chicken and if they lick my lips I might become sick? Am I just being paranoid? Also, do you use any type of special antimicrobial product or spray to clean up their stool since it may be contaminated?
Thanks Heather!!! I am soo happy that everything is going so smoothly thus far!!
:

[Heather]

Congratulations, your little girls are real troupers You will have to leave the kibbles out for your little girls. They have to have access to food 24/7. You may never be able to wean them off kibbles entirely but you can offer them substancially better nutrition by feeding them a raw diet.
I find when I first start getting my guys to eat their soupies that I don't leave out the raw food until they start showing more interest than just licking it off my finger. I just keep returning it to the fridge and then offering it to them multiple times during the day. When you start to get them eating from the bowl, without too much enticement, then I would leave it out to see if they will sample on their own. If you leave the soupy out, I wouldn't leave it much longer than 4 or 5 hrs. You will be able to tell, it will dry out a bit and start to smell rather icky
Fert kisses, I never turn them down...no matter what they've been eating You can always wash their little faces with a damp cloth but I don't really think it's necessary, unless you have an auto immune problem. If you have health issues that may have compromised your immune system then I would be a little more careful but otherwise if you're healthy then I wouldn't worry about it
As far as cleaning up their stools, I just use vinegar and water...it's safe for them and for you too. I never use antibacterial as it's now been proven that the more we use that stuff the more we're actually prone to becoming infected by the very bacteria that we're trying to destroy. I'm more concerned with contaminated kibbles (there was another recall from Mars Corp. regarding contaminated kibbles with salmonella) than I would with raw food. That's just me though I used to be very uptight about it when I first started feeding raw....I soon became much more relaxed and now I don't really think about it. I figure I'm more likely to get sick handling kibbles and other treats, like dehydrated pigs ears or smoked bones (all of which have been subject to recall notices) than raw meat that I know where it been and how it's been treated
Good luck, I will check in on you and your little ones tomorrow and see how things are going.
ciao

[halbear]

Heather,
Thanks! I am so proud of my little ones!! They are still doing good! They do not want to eat it out of the bowl yet, but they will eat it off my finger. I guess it must taste better that way!
I have been leaving out the kibble for them, but whenever I hear them eating it, I scoop them up and feed the soup instead. It seems like there has been much less stool.
Vinegar and water sounds good. Do you just dilute the vinegar in the water? That is true about the antibacterial. I'm pretty sure I read about that some where. I know the instant hand sanitizer is suposed to be really bad for you.
How much soupy should the little girls be eating? Also, the chicken thigh meat had a bone, but I took it out to make the soupy. Is it too early to introduce the bone to them? I didn't grind up the bone because I was worried about it fragmenting and them possibly chocking on it.
Have a great evening and I will talk to you soon!!

Cristina

[Heather]

Ohh let them have the bones it's good for them I know I was there once too. I had a heck of a time getting past the fact that I was feeding bones to my furbabies. It's ok, it's what they're meant to do. I found the thing that the newbie ferts had problems with was getting bones stuck between their teeth. I find that I don't have to rescue them at all any more they've figured out how to get those rotten little tooth catchers out from between their teeth. That's great that you're catching them and feeding them their soupies every time you find them at the dinner bowl. How much will they eat...hmmm that's a difficult question. I usually tell by feeling little fert bellies ... that's not really going to help you is it Feed them as much as you can get into them. I find that they will probably tell you if they're full. At first, when you're feeding off you finger they probably won't eat their fill. Once they start eating off a spoon or out of the bowl then they will start seriously eating and considering the soupy as food.
As far as the cleaner, I use about half a cup of vinegar to 2 cups of water. I will double check my recipe and let you know for sure, I usually eyeball it now and haven't measure it in years. So I will get back to you on the exact mix.
I will check back with you tomorrow and see how things are going.
ciao

[halbear]

Heather,
Hello! I am soo sorry I have not been able to post for a couple of days. I had a family emergency I had to deal with. I guess we should probably exchange telephone numbers in case something were to come up again. Is there a secure way to do so?

Yes, the bones do bother me, but in the long run I know they are good for them. I do find them telling me that they are full. They seem to lose insterest and try to pull away. When they start to get really antsy I'll know they had enough.

In any case, all is well with the girls. They are still a little finicky about eating from the bowl. Hopefully soon though!! Again, I apologize for not being able to get in contact with you sooner. I do not want you to think that I am not serious about this program. Please let me know how we can exchange telephone numbers/ email, etc. Thanks!!
Cristina

[Forum Administrator]

uess we should probably exchange telephone numbers in case something were to come up again. Is there a secure way to do so?

Simply PM (private message) Heather your phone number and she will PM you hers

[Heather]

Sorry, I worked all day and I'm just getting in. I figured something had come up. Weekends are times when the best laid plans go south . Just PM me and I will give you my number, but I wasn't too worried about you I figured you and the girls are moving ahead well Let them go when they've had enough...within a week you should see a difference in their coats and you may actually begin to see some weight gain.
I found that I fed my guys at the table or on my lap. I would then keep moving the spoon closer and closer to the bowl, until it eventually is sitting in the bowl and you're not holding on to anything but the little furbaby. At that point you may still need to start them up with the spoon, but they will eat it on their own from there . I will check on you later.
ciao

[halbear]

Heather,
Hopefully I will see changes in the girls soon! I can't wait!! I just want them to be healthy and happy, and to get the full benefits of a raw and natural diet. I will try the spoon trick. They still aren't too interested in the bowl, so tomorrow morning I will try to move the spoon closer and closer to the bowl until it is eventually in the bowl! Thanks for the tip, and I will let you know their progress in the next day or so!!

Cristina & the fuzzies