Kayla & Eden's Big Switch

[Heather]

The cod liver oil isn't dangerous, it's just harder to use. Salmon oil, they get 25mg per day which they lap up like 'tone. I use it like a treat. I use small marine fish oil, it's a mix of sardines and other smaller marine fish. They have less time to collect the toxins that are found in some of the larger fish. I've also used a product called Arctic vigor, and was quite pleased with the results.
I wish there was something I could do or say to help you make your decision but there is no easy answer. I've sat up endless hours trying to make just such decisions and I've also cried on another shelter owner's shoulder (via email at ghastly hours in the morning) when that decision cost my furbabies their lives. Your furbabies ages don't bother me near as much as their insulinomas and the difficulty getting ferrets to regulate their blood sugars and body temps in surgery. I've had a few surgeries, that were successful, but when I look back on them, they've all been short. An alter, a tongue stitched up (Mad Max learned the hard way you don't go to battle with a fully armed cat with your mouth open). These surgeries were all accomplished in under an hour, no real hard core anesthetics needed. Both Athos and Pandora's surgeries took over an hour. Both ran into difficulties with anesthetics. Pandora passed on, the next day, Athos on the table. Both were devastating as I'm sure you know and understand. With Pandora, I almost backed out of ever having ferrets again (if I hadn't just done a very difficult rescue for an abused fuzzie I would have stopped there). So I do understand your grief with the passing of Hallie. I've heard of using a very light anesthetic, where the ferret is barely under for taking xrays (the ferret comes out of the anesthetic, almost immediately) perhaps your vet could use something like that to get your little girl's teeth cleaned. Clean teeth are really a necessary part of good health, so if at all possible I would be trying to find a way to get her teeth cleaned, especially if they're really bad.
I wish you good luck with the mice. As your little ones are girls you might have some decent luck with getting them to make a kill (getting them to recognise that their toy is food may be a whole different matter). All my girls hunt, and are really good at it. My boys......well Odin believes you catch them and roll them under your tummy like you would a ball My newest boy, Captain Jack, what can I say about Captain Jack....my son says he's an emo ferret Captain Jack snuggled up with the mouse and never once tried to hurt it much less kill it. I do have some awesome boy hunters too, Loki, Attila, Ghenghis...they are good hunters. Napoleon likes his mice to be passive and lazy. Thor just likes to hunt. He's every bit as good as the girls. It's either a job or a game (I haven't quite figured out how his little mind works ) He kills and continues to kill as long as there are mice in the tub (we use the bath tub, clean up is easier). I just take the dead ones out and stack them in a container to go to the freezer, keeping enough out for the happy hunters..
Let me know how the hunt goes, I wish you much success.
ciao

[halbear]

Hey Heather! I will definitely try the salmon oil. Thank you for all of your advice, I really do appreciate it. It is such a difficult decision to make, but I definitely agree with you that it is very risky. I am going to continue to think and pray about it, but frankly anesthesia just makes me nervous. Hallie's surgery was the only one I have ever been through, and I am afraid of doing another one. I was unaware that very light anesthetics could be used. I am not sure if my vet would even be familiar with that (I have been questioning his mode of practice more and more lately), but I will try to find one that is.
Poor Max. It sounds like the kitty fight was painful.
I tried the live mice this past Saturday, and unfortunately it was a no-go. I got two pinkies and set the girls in front of them, and Eden looked at the mouse and them ran off and Kayla went over and linked the mouse and then ran off. I then put them in the bathtub with the pinkies and put a bit of ferretone on the pinkies, but it still was a no go. Kayla went over to the pinkies and licked all of the ferretone off and then went back to the other side of the bathtub. It's like they did not recognize the mice as food. I cannot understand why they had absolutely no interest? Maybe they were too small so therefore it wasn't enough of a challenge? They are so lazy...
I wish things had turned out differently. I was all excited. I even pulled out the video camera to record the whole darn thing and nothing
Oh well, maybe better luck next time.
Also, do your babies get 25 mg of the salmon oil each per day?
In any case, I hope all is well and I will talk to you soon!!!

[Heather]

I'm sorry that your first try at prey was a bit of a let down, but unfortunately as with many carnivores that haven't been taught that prey is indeed food, they just don't recognise it. I tried Captain Jack last weekend. I got the same result you did Actually.....it was worse....he snuggled up with it instead What can I say, some have it some don't So, we're going to give it another go sometime in the next couple of days. I was hoping that Mr. Squiggly would show Jack how to hunt....but Squiggly wasn't much better and needs to hone his hunting skills too. He may eat prey but he really doesn't have much of a clue in regards to hunting it You can wiggle the prey around and try and get them to play with you with the mouse. It can get messy but it might be worth a try. I had one lady who tried for 6 months to get her guys to recognise prey (she had a bit invested in she did a huge order from rodentpro, so she had an incentive you could say ) She finally emailed me and said that out of frustration she tied a string to the mouse and then dragged it around the house, getting her guys to chase it. It took her the better part of the evening but her guys finally realized under the fur was dinner You can also try cutting into it or cutting them up and adding it to their soupy
Yes, my guys get 25 mg or about that much per day. I use a children's tylenol dropper to measure it out. So they get one dropper full each day. It works out to be about 1/4 tsp. Hope that helps.
Max's encounters with the kitty after that episode became quite epic in that he actually stalked the kitty after that. He would wait for Merlyn to fall asleep in the sun or become preoccupied with watching the other ferrets and then attack him. I've watched Max actually go in full staulk mode and slink across the whole dining room hunting Merlyn. This is a 3 lbs ferret vs a 15 +lbs of hunting cat. It could only bode ill for Max and finally it did and Max lost the sight in one eye. He has basically stopped hunting the cat (I was afraid that Merlyn was going to kill him) So I was quite relieved when peace once more reigned. Max will still attack the cat if the mood presents itself but for the most part both parties have called a truce.
How are your little ones doing? Have you talked to your vet in regards to alternative therapies? Let me know how things go, I will be thinking of you.
ciao

[halbear]

Hello! That is too funny! I can't believe Captain Jack snuggled up with the mouse. It almost wants to make you keep it!! Now, were you using pinkies, or did you try a little bit bigger mouse?
I will try the salmon oil!! Also, one girl had mentioned to me that it might be worth giving my girls flaxseed oil on a daily basis because it can help to reduce inflammation with regard to adrenal disease. What is your take on this? I thought you had mentioned before that flaxseed oil was not good for them.
Max sure does have balls. I guess he was trying to get payback!! Poor little guy. Ferrets truly have no fear. They are such brave little souls!! Cats can definitely be quite mean. When I introduced my ferrets to my cat, the cat reached out it's paw and smacked them in the face. That was the last introduction they had.
I have an appointment with my original vet (the one in Orlando) for March 21st. I guess I am going back to him out of old habit. They are going to get their melatonin implants and Kayla will be getting another shot of lupron. I am also going to check on the dental scaling. What did you mean when you said "Have you talked to your vet in regards to alternative
therapies?" Which alternative therapies were you referring to?
My little girls have been doing well lately. Primarily just sleeping...
I sure wish I could do something to make them have more energy.
Well, I hope all is well with you and your little ones and I hope to talk with you soon!

Cristina & the fuzzies

[Heather]

The mice that were being served were almost adults. I may try using some pinkies to see if he will get into that. He's such a little (well...not so little woos ) He didn't really know how to be a ferret when I got him. He didn't know how to play or anything that ferrets usually do. All he would do is lie in your arms and snuggle (really nice but not a ferret ) Running with Fungo and co. has taught him how to weasel war dance, how to wrestle, hiss, dook and get into trouble (what's a ferret without curiosity )
I'm not a strong proponent of flaxseed oils but that doesn't mean they don't work. I found that most times, they're sensitive to it and it causes them to itch. Flaxseed is a plant material and many carnivores don't seem to be able to absorb it properly. It doesn't mean that some people can't get it to work for their furbabies, as a rule I've not had a whole lot of success.
Have you researched deslorin inplants? They've had considerable success with them in Europe. We can't get them up here yet, though they're being considered. I think that treatment is available to you in the US but you'd have to check it out with your vet. It's still classified as experimental, or at least I believe it is. I've heard of more and more people not getting the success they'd hoped for with the lupron, but they were talking about how the doses were different depending on where you live. It seems that the dose is higher for ferts the further south you go but I don't honestly know this for sure. I'm not sure anyone really knows I think a lot of our treatments for the ferts are guesswork
I wish you luck, I really do, I hope you find answers.
ciao

[halbear]

Thanks for your input on the flaxseed oil. I definitely don't want them to be any more itchy than they already are. I am going to ask my veterinarian on the 21st when we go see him if he can get the deslorin implants. I know Giuli said she can get them, and I believe that she is here in the U.S. It would make sense that the doses of lupron would be higher here in the south. My vet wanted her to get a shot of lupron every 3-4 months. I can't help but second guess his knowledge about ferrets in general. I am currently looking into finding another knowledgeable ferret vet closer to where I live, but until then I guess he will have to do.
I am going to do some more research however on the deslorin implants this weekend. I will let you know how it all goes.
I do have a question for you though. Do your babies get a canine distemper vaccine? My girls used to get that and the rabies vaccine when they were little, but they no longer get it because I thought it was pointless. The rabies vaccine is pointless because they are never exposed to any wild animals, and they are never around too many people so them biting someone is not of concern. I have been reconsidering the distemper vaccine though because I have two dogs and since canine distemper is airborne, I am afraid that I myself or one of the dogs could carry it in the house. What do you think?
Have a great weekend!!

[Heather]

Vaccinations are a really hard topic for a lot of people. I don't vaccinate at all, not my furkids nor my skinkids. My son developed a mild form of autism after his vaccinations, they call it SID (sensory integration disorder) The medical field claims that these problems are not vaccine related but I don't know, there is a huge history of problems developing after vaccination. I stopped vaccinating about the same time I started raw feeding. Your guys shouldn't ever get vaccinations, they're ill, vaccines should only be given to healthy animals. It's actually written on the pamphlet that comes with the vaccines, unfortunately, very few vets adhere to this warning and will vaccinate just about anything. My understanding is that 60% of ferrets react to their distemper vaccine. Those odds are way too high in my opinion. One of the things you can do is check out the incidence of canine distemper in your area, if it's really high...then maybe but personally with odds being what they are...I wouldn't. If they get the distemper anyway (vaccine or not), their chances of survival are slightly higher for survival if they've been vaccinated but it's always with severe handicaps. There's a study going on, I believe it's Dr Ruth who's conducting it. She lost her Rudy (I think that's the ferret's name) to vaccination reaction (if a vet looses her ferret you've really got to wonder what are we supposed to do in case of reaction) She's doing a study to see that maybe ferrets don't need to be vaccinated after a certain age or maybe not as often. My Napoleon has never been vaccinated (he's my only personal ferret all my other guys are rescues and have met with the end of a needle at some point or another) and his antibody or titre reading is as high as any of my other guys. His immunity is activated even though he's never had a distemper vaccine. Quite a few of my guys go to various art shows and humane society support shows, my dog goes everywhere with me. He's never been vaccinated and his parents have never been vaccinated.
Anyway, that's my take on it. Like I said it's a really difficult topic and it becomes a personal decision. I did a lot of reading and research before coming to this conclusion. If your guys were mine (despite my leaning toward the no vaccine camp) I wouldn't vaccinate again. They have health issues, they're on immune suppressing drugs (lupron), they are older and they've had previous innoculations. No, I wouldn't vaccinate JMO of course .
Hope you have a great weekend. I will talk to you later.
ciao

[halbear]

Thanks Heather for your advice. I am definitely not going to have them vaccinated then. I had no idea that the statistics were that 60 percent of ferrets can have an allergic reaction to the distemper vaccines. Wow, that sure is alot.
What is your take on Advantage or flea prevention? Is it relatively safe to use on ferrets? I was also considering on putting them on flea prevention because fleas are pretty bad in Florida in the Spring/Summer months. They have been on Advantage in the past, but I wanted your input before I start using it again.
The girls are doing okay. They are eating good, and sleeping alot like usual. Nothing too out of the ordinary. I hope all is well! I'll talk to you soon!

[Heather]

Advantage...I've used it, I don't like using it to be entirely honest with you but that being said it works and it's probably one of the safest. I don't allow my guys to be together for a minimum of 20 minutes after applying it. The vet suggested and I agree as they play rough and tumble and prefer scruffing each other so the possibility of them actually ingesting the poison is indeed very high. I don't like the stuff because it's absorbed by the ferret. I know the company says it's not but I spilled some on my hands and could taste it within minutes. That means that it's absorbed in the skin and goes through your system. It's horrible stuff. I only used it for 2 sessions at 2 months apart. I took in 2 little lost souls who were covered with fleas and they gave the rest of my business fleas too I use it only if I see that they have fleas, I don't use it if I don't see any of the rotten little blighters. I've heard that fleas are rather bad in your area so I certainly understand. One thing that was explained to me was that it lasts a lot longer than what is stated on the box, so you might get away with waiting longer periods of time before reapplying it.
I'm glad to hear that your guys are eating well. I will check in with you tomorrow
ciao

[halbear]

Hey Heather! I completley understand and agree --with your point of view with regard to Advantage. I really don't like the fact that it is absorbed in the skin and then goes through the ferret's system. I wish there was some type of flea protection that was somewhat safer to use, but that did not get absorbed into their system. Maybe it would just be best for me to keep the dogs away from the ferrets thus minimizing any chances of the ferrrets getting the fleas. On another note, the girls are doing great! Eating well!! They go in to see the vet next week, so I will let you know how it all goes. I hope all is well with you and your little
ones!! I will talk to you soon!!!!

[Heather]

Keep me posted as to how their vet visits go and good luck.
I'm not sure what the solution is regarding the fleas. If they're going to get in they will get in with or without the dogs and your ferrets don't have to be in direct contact with your dogs. They're a real pain . Go prowl through the natural remedies, I think there are some alternative ideas. I use ACV in their water, keep their bedding clean. Fleas seemingly don't like lemon but I think the idea is to prevent them, once you have them then I think you have to resort to chemical I'm going to do some checking too.
Check on you later.
ciao

[halbear]

I agree with you about the fleas. Yes, they sure are bad down here in Florida. I will definitely look into natural remedies with regard to fleas. You said that you put ACV in their water, but what exactly is ACV?
Well, I hope all is well and I'll let you know how the vet visit goes. Happy Saint Patrick's Day!

[Heather]

ACV=apple cider vinegar. Don't use the stuff that you buy at the grocery store, you need the natural stuff with mother (uglies in the bottom, at least that's what my son calls it )
When do your guys go to the vet? Let me know how it goes Good luck, give the little cuties a big hug and tell them to be brave
ciao

[halbear]

Hey Heather!!! The little girls went to the vet this past Saturday and the doctor says they are doing good!! They each got a melatonin implant, as well as a shot of lupron. Eden had alot of hair loss and the vet said he thinks its best to put her on lupron. Their heart and lungs sounded good. He agrees that it is probably not too necessary right now to put them on either advantage or revolution. I will look into that natural apple cider vinegar. How much of it do you add to their water?
The girls were quite brave though! They handeled the shots like little champs!!! They are doing well now!! I am quite proud of my little troopers!!
I hope all is well with you and your little ones!!! Take care, and I'll talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

Fantastic. What good little girls. Give them all hugs from me.
The dose that I use for the ACV is about 1/4 tsp in 1 cup of water approx. I use water bowls and they hold about 1 c of water. I'm glad to hear all went well at the vets. Great news
Talk at you later.
ciao