Kayla & Eden's Big Switch

[halbear]

Hey Heather!!! Pooka's situation sounds very similar to Eden's. It is so strange because just like Pooka, she took to the switch right away and was doing really good for a while. She was actually eating more than Kayla. Now though, she seems a bit reluctant to eat it. I have noticed her trying to eat the kibble more often. I try to break her from this though by stopping her and feeding her the raw food. but she doesn't seem too interested. Hopefully this is just a phase though, and like Pooka she will get back on track soon.
I am glad though that this is rather common and that there is not a problem. You are very right about this being the time that I find the true meaning of perseverance. I am very dedicated to this though, and I truly would do anything for my little girls!!
If things do not change with her in the next couple of days, I am going to take your advice and take a step backwards by adding more water to make it a bit more soupier. Maybe she would prefer that and then when she gets comfortable with that, I can gradually decrease the amount of water in the soup.
Eden seems to be in good health. No abnormal stool or pawing at the mouth. She does seem to be somewhat active; however, both her and Kayla are not as active as they should be. I wish they had more energy. I try to get them to play, but their interest is very short lived. I made them a sandbox to dig in the other day, and Kayla was not at all interested. Eden played in it for a while though. They used to have a sandbox when they were younger, and they would play in it quite often. Hopefully it is just because they were just tired that day, and not because they are getting elderly.
I will look into the group of vets that you provided me the link for. Thank you again for all of your advice and help thus far. On a better note, Kayla is doing very well. She seems excited to eat, and although I still have to feed her with the spoon to get started, once I lower it onto the plate she usually eats directly from the plate.
I am located in Hobe Sound, Florida. It's a pretty small town approx 20 miles north of West Palm Beach. I just graduated from college with my Master's Degree in Criminal Justice, and I am currently in the process of getting a job. I am not sure where exactly I will be placed; however, I do know that it will be in the state of Florida. It is a difficult transition, and I hate to put the girls through so many moves, but they are truly handling everything like little troopers.
I agree with you about little Pandora. The diet has absolutely nothing to do with it. My little Hallie who is in a better place now, also had an allergic reaction to a distemper vaccine, and that was the last time I vaccinated any of my babies.
I will continue to keep you posted about Eden. I am hoping that she will warm up to it, but I will give it a couple more days. If she still is not responding then I will add more water and possibly a couple drops of ferretone to get her attention.
I hope you had a great weekend, and I will talk to you soon!!!

[Heather]

Age is an odd thing in ferrets. I've got some on board who are 4 or 5 and act older than a couple of my guys who are 7 or 8 and then you have Mad Max who's at least 9 yrs old and he still goes like a mad man of 3. I think that a natural diet helps...Pooka and Babushka are key at making me realize this. Unfortunately, both have been fed a rather poor diet all their lives, so in the long run...it will probably catch up with them. Then, they could be like Mad Max...his owner fed him dog food, he's had an emergency surgery (the cat split his tongue for him) and he lost his eye in another altercation with the cat (he still chases the cat, hates him passionately) and he's still going strong. I think you will probably see more improvements as your guys start eating more consistently their raw diet. You're probably never going to see the life and vigor that they had when they were really young but I hope that we can give a little back that they've lost Hopefully, you will see a profound change, a new lease on life as their bodies become more accustomed to eating and processing the raw. I find that there are huge fluctuations in activity levels depending on weather, activities available even what time I get them out of bed. Pooka and Babushka spent most of today sleeping...they went to a show with me yesterday. Their activity levels were next to nothing today...yesterday, Pooka was a little raving maniac of activity, playing, digging in her blankets...she absolutely refused to snuggle and was into everything. Babushka was also very active yesterday...well, very active for her She was awake for about 45 min to an hour, investigating their travel cage and their show accomodations....she also was riding around in the travel pouch, meeting people. Pooka on the other hand figured out she was small enough to fit through the cage bars and attempted to wiggle her way to freedom We caught her and put her back in the smaller travelling cage which has a smaller cage of wire and cage holes. She was totally disgusted and spent the rest of the show seeing if she could find a flaw in this newer accomodations
Does Eden like raw eggs? I don't know if I've asked you this or not. You could try putting a raw egg in the ground mix to see if this might entice her to eat a little more on her own. Just a thought, unless you've tried this before.
I will check on you later and see how Eden's doing. Hopefully Kayla will eat more and more on her own and Eden decides that maybe eating raw isn't such a bad thing after all.
Good luck
ciao

[halbear]

Hey! Hopefully your right. Hopefully after some time of eating this new diet they will be full of more energy. What types of games and activities do you play with your guys? I am always looking for new ways to entertain them because they get bored pretty easily. Weather probably does have an effect on them as its always hot down here. Kayla and Eden sound a bit like Pooka and Babushka. They tend to fluctuate in their level of activity from day to day. Some days they are very active, and other days they just sleep all day. Maybe if I had more activities for them they would drag their lazy little fuzzy butts out of their cozy beds more often!!
Did you take your babies to a ferret show? I have always wanted to go to one of those, but since I live in Florida there really aren't any around here.
I have never given either Eden or Kayla a plain raw egg before. There is raw egg mixed in with their soupy. I might try this though. Can she have the whole egg (whites and yolk) or is this too much for her?
Well, everything else is well for now!! I will talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

Just scramble the egg and offer it to them...now their poopies will go south...just so you know. It's nothing serious, and they'll probably be yellow Napoleon is my little "egg sucker" He loves them, I've seen his with his feet in his food just so the other guys won't eat it on him (then he spends a good half hour on his back in a corner cleaning all the egg between his toes). If she likes her egg put a bit on her food and see if she's a little more inclined to eat her dinner on her own. It's just a thought. She can't have it all the time, or you will have to limit it but if it gets her started eating her food again...
We don't have ferret shows here either Ferrets are not the big thing that they are in the US. I'm surprised that you don't have ferret shows out your way. Some of the biggest rescues are in Florida. No, I'm an artist (animal and human portraits) and I take my babies with me to art shows and charity do's.
Keep up the good work, and let me know how things are going
ciao

[halbear]

Hello!! How are you? I'm doing well, I have just been soo busy this week!! I am going to try your idea and offer Eden a scrambled egg today!! Your ferret Napoleon sounds too cute!! I bet that must be soo funny to see him licking the egg off from in between his toes! Ferrets usure can be characters. I often find it entertaining to just sit back and watch them.
Eden has been doing a little bit better this week, but I going to try the egg today to see if she goes for the food without so much coaxing. How often can she have the egg? Also, is one whole egg per sitting appropriate, or would half an egg or less be better? Hopefully she will like it!
Well, there may be ferret shows down here, but I have honestly never heard of any going on. I am going to have to do a little n=bit more research though, because if there were a show I would love to go!! Going to different art shows sounds like fun! I bet your fur kids enjoy getting out of the house. I know mine sure do. Whenever we are going to take a trip, I put their cat carrier out with the door open and they almost immediately go inside and lay down. Then they just look at me like okay mom, were ready to go now. They love to see and explore new places, but they are always happy to get back home to their own territory.
I will keep you posted! I will let you know how the whole egg thing turns out! Have a great weekend, and I'll talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

You really shouldn't use more than 2 or 3 eggs per week. I gather that you can suffer fur loss (well you can't be your furbabies can ) and remember....loose poopies....with very loud farts
Let me know how it goes I will be stopping in later tomorrow night but I probably won't be on before then. I just got 2 new rescues turned in, and Aremis is taking a turn for the worse and is taking a lot of my time. I will be around but I probably won't be as timely as usual
ciao

[halbear]

Hello Heather! Sorry it has been so long since I wrote. I have been away for the past week for Thanksgiving. Everything is good with me and the girls. My only concern is that Kayla's hair loss on her neck and head have not really filled in too much.
Eden is doing somewhat better with everything. Although, I have noticed that they both seem to be gaining alot of weight. I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing? Exactly ow much per ferret should they be eating in one sitting? Approx 1 tablespoon, teaspoon, etc.? I don't want to be overfeeding them.
I do hope your Aremis is doing better. Good luck with the two new rescues. I hope you had a lovely Thanksgiving holiday! I will talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

You may be seeing winter weight gain. My guys put on huge amounts of weight this year (little fat sods ). I have always fed on demand....so I really can't help you as to how much they eat at one sitting . They basically eat when they're hungry. How much are you feeding now? Are you throwing out much, or are they stashing any? That is usually the easiest way to tell. Each ferret is different, in how they put on weight and how much. Mad Max has put on tons of weight but he's one of these long lean greyhound type ferrets and it doesn't show. Napoleon, Thor and Attila are fat, round butterballs of ferrets. Nicodemus and Loki have a lot of belly fat while still being quite lean through the shoulders (pear shaped) pointing to possible heart problems at a later date. If it's not interferring with how they play and interact, I probably wouldn't be too concerned.
I'm glad that you enjoyed your Thanksgiving and hope that your little girls are eating their food well (it certainly appears to be if you're concerned about how much weight they're putting on )
Let me know how your little girls are progressing. I will check in on you tomorrow. Take care
ciao

[halbear]

Ya, I guess I am not really used to the weight gain because with the kibble they never really seemed to put on that much weight. Right now, I am feeding approximately 2 tablespoons per ferret approx 3 times daily. Should I feed less food more often?

Eden has has somewhat more energy lately, but I worry about Kayla. Here energy level is not where it should be. She is barely even active anymore. She basically just gets up, takes a short stroll around the house, and then goes back to sleep approx 1-2 times per day. She also just lays on the carpet alot. I wonder if she is just bored or depressed. They have tons of tubes and toys, but she never seems to want to play with them anymore.
They do seem to be eating well, its still just Eden that I really worry about with that. She seems to have no desire to want to eat very much raw food at all. I hate force feeding her. I just wish she wanted to eat it on her own.

Do you have any ideas of things I might try to beat their boredom if thats what it is? I will also check under the section on games/activities in this forum. Well, I hope all is well and I will talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

I was just double checking your intro information regarding Kayla. Now she's insulinoma and about 6 yrs old. My concern is that she may need an increase in pred. I hate the stuff but it has it's place. I think you're probably providing all the necessary stimulation, you have two things going against you at this time. One is Kayla's age but there's nothing we can do about that. I have 6 yr old ferrets who behave very young and then I have 5 yr old ferrets who are really old. There doesn't seem to be any real rhyme or reason as to the why this happens other than look at the human population. Some people are a very young 60 (Kayla's age approx when converted) and some are a very old 60. I would be tempted given the description of her, to take her to the vet for a blood work up. I had another lady whom I mentor and her boy needed his pred increased. As soon as he had been on this for a couple of days both his appetite and his activity level increased. It might well be worth a check.
As far as quantity....I would still feed them until they don't want any more. When I'm hand feeding, I feed 3 or 4 times a day, until sated. Right now I really wish I could get some weight on Aremis, I'm sure that if someone saw him they would think he's abused. He looks like I never feed him He does have a beautiful coat and he's still alive after being diagnosed with lymphomas back in March, his eyes are still bright and he does poke around when he can get enough energy on the go but it only happens once or twice a day. The rest of the time he sleeps or lays watching the others because he hasn't got the energy to play poor baby.
That would be my temptation with Kayla, see if she does need an increase in her pred dose. It's indeed an easy fix and an inevitable deal. Truthfully, we know that there is no cure only a prolonging of the inevitable...the idea is to postpone that as long a comfortably possible for our furbabies. Pred seems to do that for them.
Good luck. Have you tried chunked meats at all? I will check in again later.
ciao

[halbear]

Hello! A blood work up is probably a good idea. I'm not sure that Kayla has had any blood work done in quite a long time. I will check into the increase in prednisone. She is already on .03 cc's twice daily, but if it would help her to increase her pred than it sure would be worth it. I will also increase the number of times per day that I feed them. For quite some time I was feeding them approximately 4-5 times daily, but once they started to gain a significant amount of weight I was worried that I was feeding them too much so I weaned off.
Your baby Aremis sounds alot like Kayla. Before I started feeding them the raw diet, Kayla was very very thin as well. She too only comes out a couple of times per day to poke around and then she just goes back to sleep or lays around.
I have tried the chunks of chicken. Kayla loves them! She eats them up with absolutely no problem. Eden on the other hand is a bit hesitant, but usually she gives in and eats them up if they are small enough. I just ran out of the first big batch of food I made, so I will be making the second batch today. Should I try any other meats?
Well, I hope you had a wonderful weekend! I will talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

Congratulations with the chicken chunks. That's great. Give your little girls a big hug, they're doing great. You can try just about any raw meat that you want to with these guys. Turkey, quail, pork, beef, rabbit is quite often a favourite albeit a bit pricey, but then so is quail. Quail is a good bone in meat to start them on as it's similar to chicken but the whole bird is edible for our little fuzzbutts. The meat end of it is only halted by your imagination or your pocket book. Some meats have a milder flavour than others so are more readily acceptable. I will check back with you later and see if you've tried a different meat
ciao

[halbear]

Hello!! Wow, I guess I didn't realize that they could have almost any meat. I thought that beef and pork were not good for them. I must have been mistaken.
I have a quick question. I looked at that recipe that you sent me for the soupy back a couple of moths ago, and you said to add 1.5 lbs. of chicken heart, liver, and kidneys (giblets).
Back when I made them the first batch of soupy I put 1.5 lbs. of heart, liver and gizzards. I guess I got confused because I thought the kidneys were gizzards. I have looked everywhere for the past couple of days to find the kidneys, but I can't find them anywhere. What benefits do the kidneys provide? I thought that the kidneys may actually be harmful since they excrete toxins from the body and I thought the kidneys themselves were very acidic.
Also, since I added gizzards to their las tbatch by mistake are they bad for them? Gee, I hope they haven't been harmful to them.
What do you think I should do?
Also, I followed your advice and added more egg to their mix and Eden really likes it. I do not have to force feed her anymore, but I was hoping that she would eat the thicker stuff so that it would be easier to convert her to whole chunks. Do you think it is possible for them to ever eat or desire to eat whole prey on their own? I understand this is a gradual process, and I do not want to rush things, I guess I just wish they were more independent in that sense.
Well, hopefully all is well with you and I will talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

You haven't done any harm Gizzards are a favourite here, in fact are fed separately as treats and special meals. I can't say I've ever found kidneys offered for chickens...but you can get them for beef and pork...you may be able to get it in the Asian markets for different creatures too. They have a much more extensive use of animals and waste nothing. A lot of raw feeders enjoy shopping at the Asian markets as that's where they can get variety for their furbabies. Unfortunately, I only get to hear about the wild and wonderful things as I live too far from one to make the shopping trip feasible.
When I'm doing up a chicken or turkey meal, I use hearts and livers. Like I said the gizzards are fed separately and my guys would never forgive me if I put it in their dinner.
As far as the egg mixture, as they get eating more and more on their own, you can add more and more meat to the mix, thickening it up until it's just like a hamburg mixture.
Do you want to feed whole prey? It's simple and difficult and depends how far you want to go. Starting them on whole prey frozen, is just a matter of offering it (live is done this way too the only problem is they may kill it but not eat it...recognising the kill instinct is strong the eating one isn't ). If they don't take it then you play games with it, cut it up (one lady finally through it in the food processor to try and get hers to eat it) tie strings to it and drag it around and let them play with it (well kill it again ). Eventually most try it and most like it. Out of all my little furbabies I only had one that would sooner starve than eat a mouse. It just takes a bit more effort and a slightly stronger stomach Your little one will probably eat all this and more eventually. I've got a boy turned in 3 weeks ago. He switched like a dream (should have known it was too good to be true ) he now has to be force fed so believe me I really really understand and sympathize with you guys This has been my 5th ferret this year (not a good year for rescue, I'm full that doesn't happen very often up here).
Keep up the good work, keep me posted as to where you would like to adventure next in the feeding dept and we will travel there
ciao

[halbear]

Hey Heather! How are you? Hopefully you and your fur babies are doing well. Me and my babies are doing great!
I will try the Asian markets. I never thought to try them, but it seems like a good idea.
I would like to eventually feed whole prey, but if I could just get them to eat the mixture or large chunks of prey on their own I would be happy. I thought the same thing about live prey, that they would probably just hunt it and kill it but not eat it. I had a hamster once and they tried to eat him (or kill him rather). I might try to offer them one, and then like you said, if they don't eat it I can always get creative and find different ways to offer it to them or add it to their soupy.
I have to agree though that it would take a strong stomach to witness the kill. I am a lover of all animals, and it would probably break my heart to hear an innocent little mouse squealing and screaming. Is it pretty bad? Maybe I can convince someone else to do the dirty work for me!
On another note, I will be taking off for the next 2 1/2 weeks for the holidays, so if you don't hear from me you know where I went. I will try my best to post if I can, but I'm not sure I'll be around any computers. In any case, I believe you have my number in case you need to get ahold of me. If you don't have it, then just let me know and I will send it to you! I hope you have a wonderful holiday! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!! Thank you so very much Heather for being there for me and my girls for the past few months. We couldn't have done it without you. I look forward to venturing into new avenues after the new year with regard to different types of meats and maybe even whole prey.
Happy Holidays!!

Cristina and the fuzzies!!