Kayla & Eden's Big Switch

[Heather]

That is fantastic I'm proud of you guys There's a couple of ways that you can go about the whole meat thing. You can try getting them to eat chunked meat, starting with little slivers added to their dinner and see if they will eat it that way. You then gradually increase the sizes until they will eat whole meats. I've used chicken legs and deeply scored them, shredding the meat so that they will chew at them, ripping the meat from the bone themselves. Unfortunately, they rarely eat the bones of the legs (too big). You can also try chicken necks or I've found quail to be a very big hit too. Anyway, keep me updated. Again congratulations, you and your guys are doing wonderful.
ciao

[halbear]

Thank you! Thank you!!
Yes, I am very proud of my little girls! They sure are troopers!! They have adapted to everything soo fast! I will try the chunked meat in a week or so. I will definitely start off gradually. Maybe I will slip a couple of chunks of meat in their dinner this weekend. Also, can they have turkey? Since Thanksgiving is coming up I figured In could buy a little bit bigger turkey and see if they will eat some of the meat before I cook it.
I tried the chicken wing a couple of weeks ago and it was a no go. Maybe after a month or so of eating chunks of meat slipped into their soupy they will change their minds.
I will try the quail as well. I am going to try to find it in a local supermarket or at a whole foods store, but I doubt they sell it around here. I can always buy it though online from that site rodent pro I believe its called.
In any case I just wanted to let you know that all is well with me and the little girls!! Have a great weekend and I will talk to you soon!!!!

[Heather]

Go ahead and try them on turkey. My little Babushka would far rather eat turkey than chicken. Rodent pro is an awesome site (they don't ship to Canada ), you can try just about anything they offer there to let your little girls to try. Have a great weekend, keep me posted.
ciao

[halbear]

Hello!! How are you? The little girls are doing just wonderful!!!!
They had their first vet visit this weekend since they have been on the raw diet and I am pleased to say that their blood glucose level is much higher. Before they started the raw Kayla's blood glucose level was around 50 and Eden's blood glucose level was around 60. Now, Kayla's blood glucose is 87 and Eden's is 119. I am truly thrilled!!!

Of course my veterinarian asked me if I had changed anything and when I told them about their new diet he said I should stop it immediately because of the risk of salmonella and ecoli bacteria not only to them but to myself too. I truly respect his opinion but the girls are doing great so why would I stop now?
I will look at that site Rodent pro that you recommended. It is too bad that they do not ship to Canada.
The girls have also gained alot of weight. Before raw Kayla was 1.5 ounces and Eden was 1.75 ounces. Now, Kayla weighs 1.10 ounces and Eden weighs 1.12 ounces.
Needless to say I am just so happy with the progress we have made over the last month and a half. I truly thank you for being there for us every step of the way thus far!! Take care and I will talk to you soon!!!!

[Forum Administrator]

Nov 3, 2008 19:01:21 GMT -5 halbear said:

Of course my veterinarian asked me if I had changed anything and when I told them about their new diet he said I should stop it immediately because of the risk of salmonella and ecoli bacteria not only to them but to myself too.

It truely blows my mind how some vets are. No offense to your vet, but if he sees your ferrets have a significant increase in their blood glucose, and sees that they are doing wonderfully, why on earth would he tell you to stop the very thing that is helping them?

I mean seriously. What do vets learn in school? Do they not know about the anatomy of a ferret for crying out loud? Ferrets poop every 3-4 hours so that they DONT GET FOOD BOURNE ILLNESS. They are BUILT to handle these types of foods. Salmonella takes a minumum of 6 hours of intestinal incubation before it will make an animal sick. A ferret has already flushed its system 2x by them. How can a vet not know that? SO frustrating

And as for YOU getting ill, yes there is a risk, but if you use sanitary procudures you'll be find. People arent advised to not handle raw meat that they are preparing to cook for themselves. So why are people advised not to handle raw meat they they are preparing for their pets? I mean there was a study done in which 30% of dog foods tested, tested POSITIVE for salmonella. So its not like commercial pet food is this magically sterile substance.

Grrrr!!!! Sorry to vent. I dont mean to target your vet in particular, its more like ALL vets who dont understand the anatomy and physiology of the animals they treat! I meant that is a BASIC thing. The fact that more vets arent aware of WHY animals have the anatomy and physiology that they do is appauling.

But off the soapbox now. I am so thrilled to hear that your babies are doing well! It truely warms my heart. Amazing what a proper diet can do, huh?

[Heather]

Alright....whooo hoooo
You go little girls,.....you go. I'm not going to vent about your vet...Giuli already did I'm just going to shake my head in disgust I remember my vet when Little Zena was diagnosed with possible insulinoma....she asked me if I was feeding her any different...I said she was getting exactly what the rest of my guys were getting. She then proceeded to tell me that she understood that I would have to feed her kibbles to help her maintain her bloodsugar but my vet also said she would trust my judgment to see to her needs. I was to bring little Zena back in about 2 weeks. The only thing that I did differently was make sure she ate, and I fed her one meal a day, sometimes 2 if she seemed to be reluctant to eat. When I brought her in she had increased in weight and her blood sugar was stabilized. Like I mentioned earlier about 1 yr later Little Zena passed on but not from insulinoma...from a brain tumour. She never was forced to take pred, nor did she ever get kibbles. My vet was ecstatic. My boy Aremis was diagnosed with lymphomas back Jan/Feb time frame....with the help of pred and a raw diet, he's still active, unfortunately, underweight but still going strong. If there was ever a time for a ferret to have problems with a raw diet it would be now. Instead he's thriving and far exceeding the vet's expectations.
Anyway, I'm really pleased with your little girls progress. I'm sorry that the vet couldn't see the progress that your little girls are making. Just keep going you've got it all Their blood glucose is on the rise, their weight increasing...that is great. Give them a big hug for me.
Keep in touch. Talk at you later
ciao

[halbear]

Giuli,
I honestly couldn't agree with you more. I mean the test results show that their health has just skyrocketed so he would be crazy to think that would stop and switch their diet now. It is appalling isn't it. I mean why is it that most vets just can't comprehend the concept and are not open to raw diets?
Believe me, no offense is taken. I wanted to switch to a holistic ferret veterinarian but unfortunately I have not been able to find one in my area.
Maybe it also has to do with the fact that he sells the kibble food at his office and he doesn't want to lose money. Whatever the reason, although I respect his opinion I am definitely not going to follow it. He also told me that the recipe I have been using (i.e. chicken, bones, fat, liver, kidney, hearts, egg, etc.) is unbalanced and that I would need to add all kinds of vitamins as supplements and that the kibble food has everything that they need. I truly wanted to get into a heated debate with him but I decided not to because I thought it would just make things worse.
In any case, I want to personally thank you for creating the great site. If it were not for you creating this site as well as all of the help and dedication Heather has given me who knows where my babies would be health wise. So thank you for all of the hard work and effort you have put into creating such a fantastic and informative website!!!!

[halbear]

Heather,
I too am disgusted at my vet's reaction. I mean he clearly sees the difference the raw diet has done for them he must be crazy to actually think I would put them back on kibble so that their health can diminish as it was before.
I wish my vet would just trust my judgment. It sounds like you truly have a great veterinarian!!
The prednisone is another concern of mine. If their blood sugar is stable do they really need to still be on the prednisone? I asked my vet this and he said no they should stay on the prednisone. Do you know what kind of side effects prednisone can have? I know you mentioned before that it can cause stomach ulcers if taken on an empty stomach, but are there any other negative side effects?
Good for Aremis!! It sound like your little boy sure is a trooper!!!!
I will give them a hug for you. I truly am proud of them!!! Their progress is nothing less than amazing and the fact that their health has turned around is nothing short of a miracle!! I can't thank you enough Heather for all of your hard work and dedication to me and my beloved fur babies!!
Take care and I will talk to you soon!!!

[Heather]

Does your vet work in a coop? A lot of vets are finding that the cost of being a vet these day (all the very expensive equipment the testing and the demands from their customers are so much more) that they're forming coop groups. My vet got in trouble for not following the so called "norm" when she started advocating raw diets and a more natural system of care. So now she talks to me in the office and spouts medical crap when we're in the waiting area. She was told that she had to push the in house foods and vaccines, something she never had done with me before. Politics plays a really big role in this. All you have to do is look at the trouble that Billinghurst and friends have got themselves into. The kibbles industry is huge and until we get them off the board of directors in the vet schools we're going to have vets who "speak" the party line....horrible but true Even Bob Church threw everyone for a loop and has started spouting the "party line" after years of advocating a natural diet I'm not a big conspiracy supporter, but in this case....you really have to wonder. It hurt our cause big time to loose Bob Church
I really can't tell you to withdraw the pred. Now, my vet and I tried to pull Aremis off the pred. You have to use a weaning dose, at any time that you see their health start to deteriorate then you either can stay or up the dose. Pred if removed all at once will cause organ failure That gives you an idea as to what it's doing to your furbaby. Liver and kidneys are the 2 major organs affected when using pred, the stomach ulcers are secondary. I don't like the drug but I also know it's necessary in some cases. With Aremis we have to use full dose or his digestive system goes horrible and he can't absorb anything With insulinomas, it's used to stabalize their blood sugar. When are you giving it? BID?? Morning and evening or all at once? I suppose you could try and wean off, but I certainly couldn't advocate that you do it, if you understand where I"m coming from. I'm not a vet
I have to admit that it's amazing to see the health turn arounds that these guys go through when you finally get them eating a natural diet. Keep up the good work, you and your little girls are doing fantastic. I will check in with you later.
ciao

[Forum Administrator]

I know that amyandfuzzies7 is using a natural steroid to manage her babies insulinoma. She has a holistic vet.

Halbear, check out this website to try and find a Holistic Vet in your area.
www.ahvma.org/

Here are the links for Holistic exotic vets in Florida. You will need to call to make sure they treat ferrets.
www.holisticvetlist.com/ahvma_query_advanced.php

[halbear]

Hey Heather!! Sorry I haven't posted in a while. An unforeseen family emergency came up.
My veterinarian does work in a coop which is probably why he pushes the kibble that they sell so much. I wish my vet would be more like yours and be for the whole raw food thing even if it is just behind closed doors.
I honestly had no idea that we lost Bob Church. I remember reading many of his great articles. That is really sad.
Don't worry, I completely understand that you can't tell me to withdraw the prednisone. I had absolutely no idea that it would cause organ failure if stopped cold turkey. I give the prednisone both morning and evening roughly every 12 hours. Since Kayla's blood glucose level was a little bit lower than Eden's she is on 0.3 cc's twice daily and Eden is on 0.2 cc's twice daily. Does this seem pretty high to you?
Yes, I am very proud of them!! Now if only I could get them to eat off of the plate! They are making progress though. They have started to lick a little bit here and there off of the plate. I also snuck a few pieces of chicken breast in there and I am proud to report that they both ate the whole pieces!!!
In any case, I apologize for not being able to post sooner. I hope all is well with you, and I look forward to talking to you soon!!!

[halbear]

Giuli,
Thank you soo much for posting that website of holistic veterinarians in my area. I truly appreciate it!! I am also going to e-mail amyand fuzzies7 to see what exactly she is using for a natural steroid to manage her fuzzies insulinoma. Again, thank you for all o your help!!

[Heather]

I'm sorry to hear you have had some family problems...I hope that it has resolved itself to a beneficial end. Your little ones were doing quite well so I was sure you were ok
How often do you get blood work done on your furbabies? I was thinking that maybe...if their blood work is still up, maybe you could get your vet to consider a lower dose of the pred. I don't imagine he will let you wean your guys off, and I'm not sure I would but that being said perhaps they don't need such a high dose. Might be worth a try. You could call him now after their evalutation and ask but it might hold a little more force if they maintained their elevated results.
I'm really proud of your guys....trying chunky meats that's great...I'm so happy for you I will check in with you this evening and see how things went today.
ciao

[halbear]

Hello!! I actually haven't gotten blood work done on my babies for a while. They get their blood glucose levels read every 4 months or so, but not other bloodwork. I am surprised actually now that you mention it that my doctor has not recommended other bloodwork. What types of testing should they be doing? Would a CBC (complete blood count) be beneficial?
I wish he would consider a lower dose of prednisone for them. Last time I was in the office he wanted me to take them off of the raw diet. I am not sure how he is going to react when he knows that I did not follow his advice. I agree with you however that they do not need such a high dosage of the prednisone. I want to call him, but I am not sure how to go about the whole thing. I really wish he were more for the raw diet. I will continue my search for a vet in my area, but it is hard because I live in a very small town in which there are very few vets. I just moved here a couple of moths ago, and since I have had my vet for 6 years now I decided to make the trip which is approx 2.5 hours away from me now. I would actually be more beneficial for me to find one closer to where I currently live, but I will be moving again in a few months. Life is soo very busy!!
On another note the girls are doing well, but I am concerned about Eden. She just does not want to eat the food off of the plate, and is starting to barely want to eat it off of the spoon. I have to scruff her alot and put the food on my finger just to get her interest. I am not sure why she has taken a few steps backwards. Kayla is doing well. She is starting to eat from the plate now which makes me very happy. I am going to try to put them in a small confined area today with a plate of the food and see if they will eat it. Hopefully they will, but I have my doubts. Kayla is doing well with the chunks of chicken and Eden too but only if they are small enough. Also, whenever Eden chews a piece of bone she spits it out. Kayla does not do this. I am not sure what happened with Eden, she was doing so well. Any suggestions?
Well, hopefully they go for the food today. I will let you know!!! I'll talk to you soon!!!

[Heather]

I"m sorry that Eden has taken a step backwards but not uncommon There doesn't seem to be any reason why, they just seem to do it. My little Pooka (6 yrs) who initially took to the switch right away...suddenly stopped eating and had to be scruffed and fed I've no idea why she suddenly felt that eating the raw was optional. Within a couple of weeks she was back eating again and has never looked back. You aren't the only one to find themselves in this position, not that it's any consolation This is when you find the true meaning of perserverance. You might try taking a step back, making the ground a little more liquid and seeing if she will eat it more willingly that way. Unfortunately, unless she has a health issue, above the diagnosed problem (is she pooping fine, not pawing at her mouth, seems to be reasonably active, not loosing weight, poopies aren't tarry looking) then slogging through it is really the only advice I've got Like I said, you can try going back a step with her and seeing if she will more readily accept her diet.
You could try this group for vets, I'm not promising anything because some vets don't want it advertised that they condone or support raw feeding. pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawVets/
If you don't mind me asking where are you? or where are you going? You can pm me privately if you don't want it in a public thread (don't blame you) and maybe our combined efforts can pull a raw friendly vet for you. I know what you're talking about how difficult it is when your vet doesn't support your diet as then it doesn't matter what your furbaby's problem is it all comes down to diet and the raw diet is always to blame Years ago my little Pandora had a reaction to her distemper vaccine (this was back when I actually vaccinated, her reaction was what put me over on this) my vet blamed my diet for her Said that if she'd been on kibbles this wouldn't have happened .... Bull****.
Anyway, good luck, keep me posted, especially about Eden....I hate it when they stop eating like that I will check in with you later tonight.
ciao