Kayla & Eden's Big Switch

[Heather]

Sounds good. Good luck. It's as much persistance as anything else. I will check and see how you and your furbabies have made out
ciao

[halbear]

Heather,
I am proud to report that the girls are finally eating from the plate. I tried the spoon trick and it worked!!
At first they would not eat from the plate unless I was holding them. If I put them down next to it, they would just run away. After a couple of tries, they now eat from the plate without me having to hold them! I am amazed at hteir progress in such a short period of time.
I do have a couple of questions though. First, should I be feeding them every four hours, or sooner? I know you said they eat approx every 4 hours. Also, if I feed them every four hours is it necessary to leave the kibble out during that period?
I noticed that Kayla, my 6 year old ferret, is starting to have some hair loss around her neck area, and whenever I scruff her some hair falls out. I am not scruffing her very hard or anything, so I wondered if she might be getting ready to go through a coat change. How many times on an annual basis do ferrets go through a coat change? Also, they are eating more and more raw food. They seem to have a big appetite. I thought I read somewhere on this forum that ferrets may tend to eat more to store up fat for the winter. Since I live in Florida, there is not winter season. Well, maybe it gets to be 60 or so (cold for us southerners, but not for you northerners)!!
In any case, do they store fat as an innate instict regardless of where they live? They seem to be getting slightly heavier. I have not weighed them lately, but I will soon to see if they have gained any more weight.
They have been eating approx 2-3 cupcake sized portions of soupy per day between the both of them. Does this sound about right or should they be eating more or less?
Also, I am not sure what your work schedule is like, but if you are away from home for more than 4 hours, or when you sleep at night do you leave out any food? I would really like for them to get off kibble completely, but if I am gone for long periods of the day, or when I sleep at night I don't know how I can feed them the raw every 4 hours. Any suggestions?

Again, I thank you for all of your help and support thus far in our transition to a raw diet!!

Cristina & the fuz butts ;D

[Heather]

This is so fantastic You are doing so well. I'm proud of you and your girls. Great stuff.
My guys have food out 24/7, even when I'm not at home. They usually have food out on the ground that is supposed to be for the cats but the ferrets eat most of it. At night I leave them to eat their whole meats and prey. I think this is one of the reasons that Little Zena (my insulinoma ferret) was able to go for so long on just raw. I honestly don't know how long she could have gone, the brain tumour ended any chances of me finding that out. I know that others maintain that you have to continue feeding kibbles to stabilize their blood sugar, but I have to wonder if it just means that they have to have food available to them. Unfortunately, I honestly can't answer that for you I've heard that people have been able to successfully take their other furkids (cats and dogs) of insulin once they've introduced raw. So it would stand to reason that you should be able to get rid of the kibbles but I can't answer that other than in theory.
Hair loss....could be a number of things. It could be seasonal, even if you live in Florida you will get seasonal hair loss. They just won't put on the big furry coat that my guys will No, all kidding aside it doesn't matter where you're located. Our guys don't really get anything but an artificial environment. My weather up here is too extreme to allow them access to the great outdoors all year. They play outside from spring to fall with the occasional outing during warm winter days (it allows them to play in the snow for a little bit) but really they stay in a controlled environment that never gets below 65 degrees. Even though they still shed out twice a year (spring and fall) and put on weight in the winter and loose weight in the spring. Another thing that I have noticed that there is a shed when there is a large change in diet. I've just dealt with my little seniors switching and they both went through a complete shed (little Pooka lost all the fur of her tail, she looked adrenal but wasn't) they're both are now putting on beautiful thick coats and have really round little bellies There is of course the "other" reason for super amounts of hair loss adrenal but I'm betting on one of the other reasons for now.
You will notice an increase in appetite, and they will be eating large amounts. That seems to level off and appears to be their little bodies demanding they eat more of this good stuff You could also be noticing the increased eating as they prepare to put on their winter pudge. I've found since feeding natural that their is a much more distinct season for these little ones. Something that isn't as noticeable as when they're on kibbles. I feed as much as they want. I guess I spoil my babies but I nobody goes hungry (too many of my furbabies have been starved or poorly fed) so they're allowed to eat as much as they like. I find on raw they rarely if ever overeat. Mayhem was my only ferret that appeared to be hugely overweight but he had cardiomyopathy and most if not all of his weight was fluid build up.
I will check with you later. If you have any questions please feel free to ask
ciao

[halbear]

Hello!! How long do you leave the whole meats and prey out for? I am guessing that it can be left out several hours longer than the soup?
I hope the hair loss is just from the new diet changes. I keep forgetting to ask you, but is it normal for their stool to be really loose, black, and seedy? It is probably loose since pretty much all they are eating is the soup, but I wasn't sure if it should be loose, black, and seedy for too long since it may indicate improper digestion, etc.
They love the soup though! It seems as though they can't wait to eat it! They look forward to it, almost as though it is liquid candy!!
When you feed your little ones the bones, do you just give them the whole bone to chew on, or smaller pieces? I guess I also worry about them taking the bones and hiding them somewhere that I can't find them.
Also, how long should they be on the soup for before I introduce whole pieces of chicken and other animals to them?
Thanks for all of your help and advice!!

Cristina and the fuz butts

[Heather]

Ok...I need to know exactly what's going into your soupy. The loose seedy stools is unabsorbed fats...it happens a lot when you're first converting to raw and in part it's the amount of liquid that going into your furbabies. We can remedy it a bit by adding a tsp or 2 of pure pumkin. It's the dark, blackish stool that is bothering me. It may be nothing more than the amount of liver your feeding. My guys get really black stools when they eat a lot of organ meats (it's undigested blood). Remember, ferrets have a very short digestive tract, so if there's a lot of blood going in, it stands to reason that there will be unabsorbed blood coming out. Their little bodies aren't used to eating this stuff, so you're going to see some digestive upsets, keep an eye on it though. You're little guys already have health issues, so let's just say close observations Keep a close eye on activity levels, sleep patterns, watch for teeth grinding and other digestive upsets. I'm thinking that it's just the switch and the speed that the switch occured but I'd sooner be safe than sorry
Lets start trying to thicken this soupy up, so there's less liquid. Are you using ground? If so let's add a little more ground and thicken it up a bit. I don't want to move too quickly because I don't want them to step back. If they accept it readily then go a little thicker. Once we get this so that it's the consistency of hamburger mix (you would make meatballs or hamburgers out of) then we're going to add minute chunks, graduating the size until they will eat whole meat....As your guys have been very reseptive, I'm thinking this might go very quickly, but again I'm not into rushing sick furbabies. While we're doing this we can also try adding some bone to the equation. Some try wingtips, my guys don't like them...too much bone and not enough meat You can try the wings, but the part that we normally eat. Cut some grooves (score it) into the meat, to the bone (criss-cross it) and let them have a go at it. I wouldn't put in more than one piece. Is there something they really like (you know...tone or something), just grease it a little and then leave them with it. They may or may not eat it but we're going to work on this.
Loosing coat, could be a couple of things. Good thing...all of them are normal It's the season to be shedding falalalala Changing their diet will also cause them to shed coat. Hopefully, we will have hit it correctly and they will be putting their winter coat on and putting their new raw fed coat on at the same time
I will check in with you tomorrow afternoon to see if you have any questions.
ciao

[halbear]

When I make the soup, I usually try to make it in bulk, so I put 2 chicken thighs in, 1 chicken liver, 2 chicken hearts, 2 tsp. of crushed egg shells, and 1 to 1 1/2 cups of water. I will try to thicken it up a bit by adding less water. Am I putting too much liver in?
Where would I find the pure pumpkin extract?
There activity levels seem normal, they seem to be sleeping and active at about the same rate as before. They do tend to grind their teeth on occassion, but they have always done this, even after they would eat their kibble. It is never really bad. I am not sure what to do?
I have already made them the soup for the next week, should I just go back and add more chicken thigh meat, or should I also put in the liver, heart, and eggshells?
The girls do love ferretone, although I know this is not good for them. I read somewhere on this forum that pure emu oil is better. Have you heard of this? Is there anything else that is better such as fish oil, etc.? I will rub the tone on the chicken wing and give it to them. Hopefully they will readily accept it!!

I am hoping that they are losing hair from the new diet and winter coat change, but I will keep you posted.
Also, should I start by thickening up their soupy by adding more meat and less water as well as adding 1 tsp of pure pumpkin oil/extract, or just by adding more meat and less water?
Also, I forgot to mention that their stool is pretty smelly. Is this normal or should I be concerned?
I'll talk to you soon!

Cristina & the fuz butts!!

[Heather]

Hi...I'm sorry...I didn't mean pumpkin extract...duh...mindfart Pure pumpkin, not pie filling. That's what I get for answering you at 12 midnight (or there abouts ) Sorry Was their poopies dark or tarry before they started eating raw?? They're on pred right? Are they on any stomach meds? Always make sure they eat just before you give the pred, even if you have to spoon feed them. Ulcers are a common problem in ferrets that are taking pred. The way to get away from that or intestinal bleeding is too feed right before you give the pred. Let's see what the pumpkin will do and if this helps clean up the foul smell as well. We'll keep our fingers crossed.
I would just add more meat or less water depending on which way you want to work it. Adding more meat will create more soupy mix. Removing water will make less. It will depend on how you want to do this Let's see what happens there...if you've already made it up then just hold tight and we'll do it with the next batch. I'm curious to see if the dark poopies is food related or if your guys may actually have IBD or and ulcer (both are common with pred ferrets).
I've heard that emu oil is fantastic. I used it for a time for my arthritic old dog (before he passed), it's supposedly a good antiinflamatory, and it did wonderful things for him. It has a tendency to be a bit pricey but I have to buy from a local holistic supplier and thus pay quite a bit more. I understand if you shop around bit you can get it for a reasonable price.
I hope I got all your questions I will pop in later this evening to see if I missed something.
ciao

[halbear]

When you say pure pumpkin do you mean the actual inside of a pumpkin?
Their poop was not dark before they started the raw diet. Their poop was brown and it looked pretty normal. Yes, the girls are both on the prednisone suspension. They are not on any stomach medicine though. I have not been feeding them right before giving them their prednisone suspension, so I will try that. I was unaware that ulcers were that common. I truly hope that they do not have IBD or any stomach ulcers.
So, should I add about 2 tsp of pumpkin to the soup, which consists of 1 chicken thigh, 1/2 chicken liver, 1 chicken heart, 1 tsp of eggshell, and some water? You mentioned earlier that their stool may be black because of too much chicken liver. Should I use less chicken liver than what I mentioned above?


Hopefully, they will be okay once we get all of the kinks ironed out...

[Heather]

Yes You can use the stuff in the can, just make sure it's not pie filling that it is indeed pumpkin. The pie filling is already cut with sugar and spices...your guys (actually no ferret) needs that If you're using 1 chicken leg/thigh use only (1) one tsp and we will start with that. The rest of the recipe sound ok. It's ok, don't worry...my vet warned me about the pred and years ago my daughter was on pred (for asthma) so I'm working more from experience than anything else. The pumpkin will act as extra water absorber so that should firm up the stools, if it doesn't seem to work then we will add another tsp. OK? You and your guys are doing fantastic... we just need to fine tune the recipe for your little ones. That's the nice thing about the raw diet, you don't have to change the brand, just modify the ingredients
I will check back with you to see if you have any other questions .
ciao

[halbear]

Thanks Heather!! I picked up a can of the pure pupkin today. I will mix it with their food and cross my fingers!
It is really nice that the raw diet is so easy to fine tune.
I am sure that everything will work out with them!! They already seem as though they are gaining weight. I am happy because Kayla seems pretty excited to eat. I have been having a little bit of difficulty with Eden. She needs a little bit of coaxing with the spoon to get her interested. For a while she was eating it on her own, but lately she has been needing a bit more coaxing.

Overall though, I am impressed with how well and how quickly they are taking things!! I can't thank you enough for all of your help thus far. I will talk to you soon!!

Cristina & the fuz butts

[Heather]

For some reason, they sometimes backslide when they first get on to raw. As you're still spoon feeding that's ok because you've caught it. Sometimes, easy switches cause problems because just when it looks like they're eating on their own they suddenly stop but they don't want to eat kibbles any more either and their people figure they're still eating. This is never forever, it's just a minor set back and like I said it's not a problem really because you're aware of it.
You and your guys have done so well. It's really fanastic. I will check in on you tomorrow and see how Eden is doing. Hopefully, she will be back on track but don't be too upset it may take a couple of days.
ciao

[halbear]

Hello! Eden is still being a little bit difficult. I still have to spoon feed her for the first few licks, and then I slowly move the spoon onto the plate. I then just slowly move the spoon away and this seems to work pretty good. She seems to be getting a little bit better though. Hopefully she will be back on track in a couple of days. Other than that, their stool is still a little loose, but hopefully that will change when I make them a new a batch of soup with less water in the next couple of days. I will talk to you soon!!


Cristina & the fuz butts

[Heather]

Sounds to me like you're doing well. I'm sorry that Eden is still being a bit of a hold out but she sounds like she will be back on track soon The fact that she just needs a kick start shows that she's moving in the right direction. The looser stools will probably continue off and on as their bodies get used to the sudden increase in fluids. You also have to remember that kibbles keep ferrets (and any carnivore) on the brink of dehydration. When you start feeding meat (which has a very high amount of moisture) their bodies suddenly have to learn to process this much fluids. Given a bit of time their stools should solidify, and it will even more once you start feeding bone.
I will check in with you tomorrow. Good luck
ciao

[halbear]

Yes, hopefully after a bit more coaxing and persistent persuasion my little Eden will get back on track. It makes sense though what you said about the kibble keeping them on the brink of dehydration. I have noticed that since I started the raw diet, they definitley do not drink as much water as they used to. I was alarmed at first, but then I realized that it is because they are getting so much water in the soup.
I bought the chicken wings, and I am going to rub them with ferretone and offer it to them tthis evening. I will let you know how that goes. I am crossing my fingers though!!!

Have a great evening!!

[Heather]

I will keep my fingers crossed for you but please don't be disappointed if they don't go for it. Trying to get them to eat bone is much more difficult than it is to get them to eat meat and there is no real trick...it just seems to happen. Persistence is the key with every step of raw feeding...so good luck. Hopefully, your guys will step up for this one just like they did for the soupy. I will check in with you later. Have a good evening.
ciao