Kayla & Eden's Big Switch

[halbear]

Hey! I tried with the chicken wing but it was a no go. They just did not seem interested in the skin/meat. I slathered it in ferretone and they licked it off, but soon after they lost interest. I will keep trying though!!!

One thing I have noticed though is that their breath has a very foul odor since they have started the raw diet. Is this normal?

Also, Eden has been acting much more skitish lately. She was always sort of cautious and skitish around noises, but lately when she eats if even the slightest noise occurs she stops eating and tries to get away. She has always been somewhat skitish because I got her when she was about 1 years old from a pet store. They kept her in a small bird cage (very unsuitable for a ferret) and they were feeding her some type of low quality cat or ferret food. She was morbidly obese because they never let her out of the cage, and I have always wondered if she was abused. When I saw her like that I had to rescue her. She lost so much weight after a couple of months because all she did was run around. She was so happy not to ever be caged up!!!
Needless to say, she has always been somewhat cautious and scared around new people and noises, but I just wondered if maybe her senses had heightened from this new diet.

In any case, I will talk to you soon!!!

[Heather]

I"m sorry that your experiment with the chicken wing didn't work but I'm not entirely surprised...I would have been very surprised actually if they'd gone for it. Give them time....they're just recognising real food, much less in it's natural form. I would keep offering different meat bones. Chicken necks work very well, a lot of people use legs (the bones are a little large though it will teach them to eat off the bones, score the meat if you use this type of bone)
You are going to see some new behaviours, higher activity levels, more allert demeanor. Your little girl isn't exhibiting a normal behaviour transition to raw but she is exhibiting a normal behaviour to change and her hightened awareness to stress. You might try and get (if you don't already have some) some rescue remedy. I don't know if you use a water bottle or a bowl but put 10 drops into their water (it doesn't matter if they both drink it) and maybe rub a drop in each ear or 2 drops in her mouth if she's willing. It's just to take the edge off her stress. I'm thinking that due to her past experiences her natural reaction is to revert to a flight or fight response. She needs time to understand that even though her diet has changed (which is very important to her), that nothing else (your love, her care, her freedom) has changed. Once the food starts working in her system, and she becomes more comfortable you will see her relax more and maybe even more than she was before. She just needs time and reasurances.
ciao

[halbear]

Hi! I tried the chicken wing again but they still refused it. I made another batch of soupy yesterday. I did not put as much water in it so it is pretty thick. I offered it to the girls but they did nt seem too interested. They gave it a few licks and then just tried to run away. Whenever they tried to run away, I would just catch them and give them some on a spoon but thye seem to have lost interest. Do you have any ideas? Should I just add more water? I even tried to add a little bit of ferretone but still didn't have much luck.
I will try the chicken necks and legs and see if that works. I picked up a bottle of Bach Rescue Remedy and gave both of them a couple drops in their mouths. They took it willingly, but they probably just thought it was the pred.
They were doing so good at first. Hopefully they will both get back on track soon!!
I'll talk to you later!! Have a great evening!!

[Heather]

Put a little more water in your soupy mix again. They're still not comfortable enough with it to regard the changed texture as food. It's same with the chicken wing. They progressed very quickly so to have this little set back isn't surprising and not that worrysome. Take is right back if you want or try only to the point that they will start eating it again. I found that I have had to backtrack a couple of times with certain ferrets as I progressed from soup to more solid foods.
Good luck, I will check in with you later. Have a great evening
ciao

[halbear]

Hello! I put a little bit more water in the soupy mixture and it seemed to help. I did not add any to their soup mixture today because I wanted to see if they would still go for it and they did! They would not eat very much but they still lopped it off of the spoon.
I am happy that the minor set back is pretty common and it is not just that they do not have any more interest in eating raw food.
How long does it typically take you to get a ferret from a the soup mixture to solid foods?
In any case all else seems to be going well!! Their stool has thickened up and is starting to look somewhat normqal again. I hope you had a great weekend and I will talk to you soon!

[Heather]

Set backs are common and figuring out how long a ferret takes from soupy to true raw feeding is as easy as trying to eat soup with chop sticks. If you figure out that you just pick up the bowl and drink then you're there, if you try and eat it with chop sticks then you're going to be there for awhile . The longest I've had to take a switch to is my little senior, Babushka (9yrs) who took over a month to switch (and I've been doing this and mentoring for 10 yrs). The fastest, two little starved flea infested souls who switched the night I brought them home (they were that hungry , they had been without food for at least 4 or 5 days ).
I will check in with you tomorrow and see if how you and your furbabies are doing. Everything seems to be in order and on track, I'm glad that the poopies are starting to firm up. It will get better once you start adding bone to your mix. Have a good weekend.
ciao

[halbear]

I like your analogy!! I would have to say that I agree with that 100%. It definitley makes sense!!
That is so sad about your two little ones. I am glad that they took to it so quickly.
The little girls are doing great! They are taking to the thicker soup; however, they still have no desire to eat from the plate but rather from the spoon.
Is there anything or any type of supplement that I should be adding to the soupy mixture until they start eating the bone to make up for it? Also, approximately how long does it take for them to grow out a new coat or to go through the coat change from eating the new raw diet? I ask this because the hair loss on Kayla's neck seems to be getting worse and I am a worry wart when it comes to things like that.
Well, I hope you have a great evening and I will talk to you soon!!

[Heather]

I found my two old girls really not interested in eating on their own in the beginning. Sometimes at 2 in the morning, I found myself wondering why I was forcing a 9 yr old ferret to eat raw food when she probably wasn't going to live much longer anyway. It took about 3 or 4 weeks of insistance....I also removed kibbles after about 2 weeks. I say this with caution. Both these girls, though old were very healthy. I fed them 4x a day by hand, making sure they were never hungry. I'm not sure I would risk this with insulinoma ferrets. Have you tried moving the spoon back into the bowl, so that they're actually eating out of the bowl instead of the spoon?
Are you adding egg shell? I can't remember. I don't do a lot of supplementation with my guys. I add marine fish oil and raw eggs to my mix (I use the eggs instead of water) and that's about it. My recipe is basically the recipe that I gave you at the beginning except there's a lot more of it and I use ground rmb (raw meaty bones). I always start my guys with that mix that way I don't worry about them not eating bones. Then I can work them through the whole bone eating thing at their leisure without sweating about balance and such.
Being a worry wart myself I know where you're coming from Little Babushka (9yr old) never lost a hair, in fact her coat is now so thick and lush it's disgusting Little Pooka on the other hand, decided that being naked was better for the summer and lost all the hair on her tail (except for the very tip....she kept a lion tuft ) and a good amount of her coat (not really naked but very thin....) Her coat is now coming in thick and plush and the fur on her tail is long and thick. For her, the change in the coat came when everyone else started putting on their winter coats. So, I guess what I'm saying it does depend on the ferret but if you think at any point that the fur loss appears to be progressing further than you're comfortable with please take your furbaby to the vet to have her checked out. Yes, there is a certain amount of hair loss that can be associated with diet change, but I certainly wouldn't want to deny that it could be other health issues either.
I'm glad that your furbabies have decided that thick isn't that bad after all, that;s so fantastic. Keep up the good work, I will check with you tomorrow
ciao

[halbear]

I have tried to move the spoon back down to the bowl, but I will keep on being persistent!
I am adding egg shell to the soup. Where do you find marine fish oil? If I were using 8 oz chicken, 1 tsp. crushed eggshells, 1 chicken heart, and half of a chicken liver should I replace the 1/2 cup of water with one whole egg?
What are raw meaty bones and where do you find them? Do you grind them up and add them to the soup mixture? Are they ground down pretty fine into a powder?
Yes, the girls do have a vet appointment at the end o this month so if the hair loss continues I will have to ask the doctor about it.
Also, is it normal for the little girls to have pretty bad breath when eating the raw diet? If you feed your babies 4 times per day then do you feed them approximately every 6 hours? I have been trying to feed them every 4 hours, hopefully this is not too much.
I hope all is well and I will talk to you soon!!!

[Heather]

I get mine from a fantastic little shop that caters to raw feeding clients. I believe you can possibly get it on line, salmon oil can also be used if you chose to. I have also used Arctic Vigor oil as well.
You can certainly try. I don't know how liquid or thick this will make your soupy. You may have to use a little more water if there isn't enough to keep your little ones happy about the consistency. It all depends on the size of the eggs
Rmb's = raw meaty bones. You can buy them ground from various online suppliers or you can grind them yourself using a grinder or like myself, I get a butcher to grind my stuff for me or once again I use this convenient (but expensive little shop). You can check out a couple of raw sites like Bravo or Hare-today.com that will give you an idea as to what is out there and the price. Both these companies come highly recommended. I can't vouch for them personally as I don't believe either ships up to Canada and I'm quite happy with my suppliers. There are various grind levels, the bone isn't ground to a powder but is chunky and actually allows for some tooth cleaning action as the furchild chew up the meat and bones.
Bad breath....hmmm. Not that I've noticed but that being said you're not feeding bone yet and that might be a factor. Their breath does smell different, but shouldn't smell bad persay. I find kibble breath offensive but that's just me Their breath should smell similar to fresh meat... I have had the old whoaaa what have you been into after my guys have eaten rat so it will be directly linked to what they're eating. It well may be the lack of bone to clean the teeth.
No, feed them about every four hours that works well. We have to take into consideration, health issues too. I think that works well. You're doing good . They may not be getting overly hungry (which may be why your guys like the babying thing of being fed ) but for your guys this would be good. You could try pushing it off a bit to see if they get hungry enough to eat more on their own but I wouldn't push it too far. They will be sated longer with the meat. Kibble stays in their system longer but it's not easily absorbed so it takes more energy to process it, so it means they're hungrier faster. Meat is easily absorbed and thus keeps their tummies from getting hungry for longer periods of time.
Good luck, I will check in on you later
ciao

[halbear]

I wish I had one of those little convenient little shops around here. Is the marine fish oil pretty expensive? I found a 4 oz bottle at the website listed below. Does the price seem a little high?
nutrascriptives.com/index.aspx?id=51&sku=15444

I also found the oil at two other sites listed below for a much cheaper price but I am not sure if they are the right kind or not.
www.vitamaker.com/na-liquid-omega-3-16oz.html

www.everesthealth.com/-p-6451.html

How much oil do you add to the soupy? What is your take on flax oil?

I checked out bravo and hare today websites and I found ground bones but they sell them as ground bones and organs mixed together. Is this okay? Also, you can choose chicken, rabbit, duck, or turkey ground bone and organs? Should I stick with the chicken ground bones and organs?

Is one egg per batch of soupy sufficient?
Is there a specific level that the bones should be ground into because I worry about them getting an intestinal blockage from swallowing too large or too sharp of a piece of bone?

One last question!! If I were to invest in a meat grinder, would it grind the bones down small enough for safe ferret consumption? The specific one I am looking at is at this website:
www.preciouspets.org/a/grinders.html
Do you think this would be a good option? I guess I worry about the bone splintering or cutting their esophagus so I'm not sure how small the bones should be so that they are easy for them to digest.

In any case, I will keep on keeping on with the soupy!! Thank you for all of your help and feedback!!!

[Heather]

Ok
Let's start with the oils. That first one, that's a really steep price. For the most part we pay more for stuff up here than you pay and I pay that much for a litre, you would be paying that much for 4 oz. The next one appears to be comparable, so it would depend on how much your shipping costs and all that stuff compare. You also get a bigger discount if you buy larger amounts. The last one...your furbabies probably woudn't like it very much, at least none of mine appreciate mint flavouring. Flax seed oil is a vegetable based product and therefore cannot be as easily absorbed. I have never used it on ferrets but did try to use it with the dogs several years ago and discovered 2 weeks into feeding it that my dogs developed horrific itchies which stopped as soon as I stopped feeding it. It seems that many animals are sensitive to it, which goes to show once again what is good for us isn't necessarily good for our furkids. I find that ferrets are itchy enough as a little creature without adding more itches that I can't verify.
Honestly, truly....mixed organs and meat and bone...the best bang you can get for your dollar. I avoid ones that mix veggies in their recipe, unless it's trace only. It means that I don't have to research if my furbabies can tolerate it or not. So, my answer, yes .... definitely make use of it that way if you want, it gives you a more balanced diet. One of my newbies decided that this was the best way for her to go, as she only has a couple of furbabies and it was easily accessible. Her guys switched on it over the past week. They went from soupy to full raw diet in the week. That doesn't mean that will be how it works for you but it will give you a balanced diet right from the beginning, thus giving you more room and less stress to work your babies through to a totally or as next to totally raw diet as is possible. It also means that you will not be so pressured for your guys to eat bone in a solid format as they're getting it in the ground mix.
I so understand your fear regarding the bones....we've been so brainwashed that by giving our carnivores bones that we set them up for horrible deaths by either perforations, punctures or impactions. I wish I could offer you some type of guarantees, but there are none but I can tell you the only time that I ever had an animal almost choke to death was my alaskan malamute almost choked to death on his kibbles. You have to remember that the bone that normally causes these problems that you read about are usually cooked making them fragile, unstable components that are brittle and can be likened to shards of glass. You have to remember that our furbabies stomachs and intestinal tracks are actually designed to handle meat and bones. I have never encountered an injury caused by uncooked bones (I'm not saying it can't happend), I'm just saying it's unlikely. The worst that happens with my guys is when they're eating ground and it gets stuck between their teeth. It's like people talk about salmonella in the raw foods. Almost all kibbles carry salmonella. A few years ago, there was a test done by a test lab to bolster the claim by kibbles manufacturers that kibbles were the safest foods to eat because all raw diets contained harmful bacterias. That study was posted only for a short time and then removed...why??? because they discovered that there was as many if not more kibbles that carried harmful bacterias as there were to raw foods.
A grinder hmmm. I just had one of my newbies buy one of those...it was by Northern Tool but I honestly don't know which one. If you want to research it a little more I can ask her. She has a business of 7 furbabies and decided the most economical thing for her to do was take the initial hit and buy a grinder. She's just started grinding her own mix and is really happy with it. I could ask her which one she bought as it was recommended to her by someone on a dog feeding list. I think she's very happy with it.
One of the biggest things about raw feeding is the ability to adapt. You will see not only your guys change but you will too ;)My guys eat a ground mix, but they also eat whole bones, legs, riblets, whole quail and rabbit pieces....variety is the spice of life. They also eat whole prey. I understand your concern and I'm not downplaying it. I guarantee that if you're raw feeding still 1 yr from now you will be much more relaxed about it
Eating bone will be a learning experience for both you and your furbabies, but trust me you will both come out ahead.
I will check in with you tomorrow and see how everything is going. Hopefully, your guys will have decided that maybe they remember what it's like to eat on their own Good luck
ciao

[halbear]

I thought the first oil was pretty expensive. I will try to search for better deals! I do however have one question though. Is there a difference between Marine Fish Oil and Cod Liver Oil. I guess I am confused because there are soo many different types of fish oil out there. Some have EPA and DHA. Also, most of them are flavored lemon, orange, mint, etc. I know you said that ferrets do not like mint, but how about orange or lemon-lime?
I do feel a bit more at ease with regard to the bones. I too read somewhere that cooked bones are vert very dangerous because they can splinter.
I would greatly appreciate if you could ask your other newbie which grinder she purchased from Northern Tool. It would be nice to have one since I could make large batches at once.
I am also interested in investing in the grinder because although the website Hare Today sells the chicken and rabbit meat, organs, and bone, the price for shipping to Florida is pretty hefty. The website recommends that frozen products have a 1-2 day shipping because otherwise they may not be frozen by the time they arrive at your doorstep. I am not sure where exactly they are shipping from but 2 day air to Florida costs 50 dollars, and in that case it may actually be cheaper in the long run to buy the meat grinder.

Yes, hopefully I can convince my kids to eat on their own. I think they like to be babied!!! Hopefully they will get over that soon though!!
I'll talk to you soon!!

[Forum Administrator]

I use Nature Made Omega 3 Fish Oil Capsules. I poke the capsule and squirt out the oil. Its oil from wild deep sea anchovies and sardines, with no extra additives, flavors, colors, or preservatives. Its not that expensive at all because my kids only get a few drops of oil every now and then. I've had the same bottle of 75 capsules and its lasted me since January (still have more capsules to go). Just a tip if you are looking for cheap, quality oil

[Heather]

Thanks Giuli....sometimes when it comes to actual products I find myself a little out of the loop as what's available up here in Canada isn't down there or vice versa.
I will post the question about the grinder and see what she says I'm inclined to agree with about the grinder. I know that if I didn't have easy access to ground meats I would probably invest in one myself, in fact my husband was actually debating if it wouldn't be cheaper in the long run. So, anyway, I will see about getting that info for you.
ciao