Joclyn's Switching Thread

[Heather]

It could be chicken...just because they can or cannot eat chicken in kibble form doesn't mean they can or cannot eat it in the raw. That is how much kibble actually changes the molecular structure of the food. It could also be that the meat is too rich for him. Some ferrets have a hard time, especially when they're new to raw, digesting some of the denser, more blood rich foods. Actually, it's a common complaint when switching furkids to their natural diet. I hear the same complaint about dogs and cats. When I first switched Samurai (cat) over to raw, all he could eat without vomiting was chicken and it's components (liver, heart, he wouldn't touch gibblets, beneath him to eat such a thing and these had to be mixed in, he couldn't hold the liver down) About a year later I was feeding a little fert (very sick with IBD and ulcers) rabbit and Samurai discovered that he not only liked it, it stayed down. We later learned that he could eat chicken, turkey, quail, rabbit (he won't even try mouse) but could not eat any of the richer meats....beef, venison, elk and emu. Unfortunately, this part of the game is very much trial and error (what they can eat and stomach vs what seems to travel straight through or straight up )
So you may find that as his system learns to process the raw diet, he gets better at keeping his food down and he becomes more economical about processing it .
ciao

[joclyn]

i am hoping it's just a matter of these items being richer since they're not the basic meat meat stuff and not that he's got an issue with chicken! if that is the case, then so be it - i can always use turkey instead or quail or duck.

he's been fine with lamb and goat meat - both of which are a little richer, so, it may just be that it's the heavy organ-stuff that's the problem. i haven't offered any organ type stuff from any other animals yet, so, don't know if he'll react the same or not.

i will try chicken thighs and see how that goes. and i'll also get some veal or lamb liver and see how that goes down and/or comes up .

i guess i can expect the same issues with kidney and heart? what about tongue?

i'm giving lamb tonight. was going to give it for breakfast and woke up having to rush out to the dentist - have a lovely abscess by the tooth that had root canal/crown put on. so, didn't get to give that to them this morning.

i HAD put the giblet leftovers of what i'd portioned out into a separate lock crock for overnight. was nice to see obi eat some of it, rather than the kibble that was in the next bowl, before he went to sleep. and it was nice to see duncan finishing off whatever was left this morning (he also bypassed the kibble bowl - went right to the giblets, so that's good!!).

i did not fill up the kibble before i left - so, they'll have empty bowls and hopefully even pixie will eat the lamb - i expect the other 5 to eat it with no problems since they have previously. i just hope they (boo and finola) actually eat 'meal-size' amounts this time!

[Heather]

Owww, sorry about your tooth....that's got to hurt
Sounds like your guys are getting the idea. You always know that things are really progressing when the kibble bowl stays full or untouched while the meats are disappearing ;D.
Good luck with your lamb feasts
ciao

[joclyn]

i never had an abscess before - even with having had a few teeth that have fractured due to my grinding - never had a problem with them and one was just a stump for years and years before i had it pulled. never should have done the crown on this one...should have just left it as it was since the root wasn't anywhere near being exposed. getting the crown was against my better judgement - and it's been nothing but a problem (he made too high, so was above my real teeth and that was a big issue since i grind)

a bit fixed up now with heavy antibiotics, pred pack to reduce inflamation (since i can't take ibuprophen and the like) and some serious pain meds - hate to take them, yet had to, they make me wired, so, i'll be up all night again i think...i'm not having any pain though and i actually ate a real meal tonight and chewed on that side too - haven't been able to do that in almost a week!

anyhoo!!

the lamb was a bit of a bust this time

they all had some interest - and all willingly ate a piece or two. winston and obi ate the most - and still not all that much. and OBI is the one that vomited today...just brought up one piece and it may have just been just enough to get stuck since he didn't chew it up too well..

boo - he didn't want it this time. finola wasn't all that interested - she stashed a few pieces tho. winston also stashed - actually put half a dozen pieces in a pile.

pixie *almost* tried it. she kept walking by the dish and sniffing. i offered her some from my hand - she sniffed more; didn't take it, tho. still, that's big progress for her! she's not shown any interest at all until today.

fert see; fert do. it really does work, lol!

boo i was upset didn't eat any. he likes lamb. and i let it get to room temp, too. well, kind of, was still a bit 'chilled' from the fridge and the last few times it was completely room temp and i think that makes a difference for him.

so, it's going in the side bowl for overnight. as i said before most of this bunch ARE night munchers, generally, so, giving it too early in the evening hasn't always gone well.

i'd have expected them to be hungry tho - although, there is a bit of kibble left in that bowl...so, maybe tummies were a bit full already?

i'll do mice tomorrow. i can put them out frozen when i leave for work and see how that goes. and i'll get to a store and buy some chicken thigh meat for tomorrow night. want to see if that's an issue for winston or not. no vomiting from him tonight after eating the lamb - he had a few pieces, an ounce or so; maybe a bit more.

[Heather]

Sounds like your guys aren't doing that badly though. Interest is good and they're like small children, they never do what we expect them to.
Sounds to me like Obi swallowed a piece that was a little large for him to swallow. It takes some learning when you're used to all your food being exactly the same size and made just to fit into your mouth. I've had my guys cough up meat pieces (usually when they get real piggy when eating mice) I used to think it was vomiting but it's more like a regurgitation, not a real vomit. I also find that ferrets when eating raw seem to handle vomiting better than ferrets fed kibbles. I think it has to do with how fast a kibble fed ferret dehydrates, whereas raw fed ferrets are more metabolically balanced. I'm not sure if this is correct but it certainly appears that way. It would also stand to reason if their systems were less squewed to dehydration that they would recouperate from illnesses better too.
I will be interested to see if your meat disappears overnight. Good luck and I hope that you're feeling better soon. There's nothing like a toothache to make you feel really miserable.
ciao

[joclyn]

yes, obi did seem to just bring up that one piece and didn't have any 'dry heaves' so, no, not true vomiting.

with winston, his whole system definitely rebelled! he was still a bit shaky the next morning after the liver - still doing some bit of coughing and was literally still shivery. with the giblets, it wasn't quite that bad - he did the shivery bit for a little while and some coughing...was fine by the next morning. so, that may have been a combo of too big a chunk as well as a bit too much richness on the tummy.

well, sad to say there wasn't much eaten of the lamb pieces overnight. hardly touched at all. i left it though - maybe some will be gone by the time i get home from work. and i'll do the mice tonight.

i'm really surprised that more wasn't eaten! they LIKE lamb. i did use a different cut than i have previously - would that make a difference? i wouldn't think so...although, like you say, they can surprise ya...was really surprised at pixie - maybe she's not that far off of it

all in all, i'm pretty okay with how things are going. it'll only get better now that i'm trying to do something every day. so, it's just a matter of time before they're completely off the kibble...and then i can start working on the other half of the biz!

[Heather]

Poor wee things, they're really not meant to do the whole vomiting thing. It's really rough on their systems.
I was just going to ask you if you had changed how you cut up your meat or if it was different in any way than how you first served it. I've known them to refuse meats from different suppliers. My guys love whole rabbit...fur and all, but refused to eat Urban Carnivore (bloody expensive bit of experiment that was) because it was the only way I could get whole rabbit consistently. Rotten little sods wouldn't touch it You see no matter what you know...it's still experimental
I'm glad that you're happy with your progress, it's one of the most difficult things to understand that you have to work on their timetable and what we consider right isn't always within the ferrets idea of right. I think you and your guys are doing famously.
ciao

[joclyn]

well, yeah. experimental...that covers it perfectly!!

still a fair amount of the lamb left when i got home - some had been eaten though.

so, i did buy a couple chicken legs at the little grocery by work (knew i wouldn't have time to stop at the supermarket i usually go to). so, not expecting them to really be interested since the lamb and the giblets didn't go over all that well, i didn't cut the meat off...just got down there with them with the whole leg. figured only obi and duncan and maybe winston would go for it.

wrong!

obi, duncan, and winston came running over. obi & dunc start in on it and winston kind of - seemed hesitant. then boo comes over and digs in. and finola. even pixie checked it out. winston couldn't get a spot so went off - instead of pushing his way in, which would be the norm for him.

i made space for him and he did bite down on it...and then took off. literally was climbing up me trying to get out over the playpen. that is NOT his usual thing - in fact, he's never done that! really seemed like he was trying to run away from the chicken!

since there was so much active interest i went back to the kitchen and cut the meat off and into small chunks. brought the dish back and then only obi, dunc and finola wanted it. winston was not interested at all. boo would not take any even when handed to him.

i went back a bit later and grabbed some of the skin - boo wanted that and obi likes it, so i gave him some as well (darn nut, he kept trying to inhale the whole piece in one shot!).

so, mixed review here. they were more interested in the whole thing rather than the chunks...not sure if it's the skin that is more of an interest or the fact that i'd made it too 'easy' by cutting it up for them. so, again leaving some out for the night.

cut most of the meat off and froze it with bits of skin. left some meat and skin on the bone and that'll be another portion - and i'll see which goes over better...maybe they like the skin more and like to work at it from the bone?

i thought about supplier with the lamb...i got this stuff at a dif store and i know it's a dif supplier since it's a dif chain...if i get some from the other place and it's no problem, then that's probably the issue.

i've been doing the meat in chunks about the size of the kibble - maybe a little bigger. and some a bit smaller since that works better for finola and boo since their jaws are a bit smaller than the others. i did do some larger chunks specifically for obi since he's so much bigger - not that he really cares as he'll just eat it...

i didn't think i should be consistant with sizes either...they do need to learn to eat it and, with whole pieces like the wings, they're dealing with having to rip chunks off (which will vary in size), so, i didn't think it really made all the much of a difference.

should i be doing chunks consistantly the size of the kibble for the moment?? and then go larger once they're more accustomed to it?

oh, and something i've meant to ask: i notice they rarely use their paws to hold anything; especially big things like the wings or mice...are they just weird or is this normal for ferrets to not use their paws to assist with getting the meat into edible pieces?

[joclyn]

whatever chicken i'd left was gone this morning - i really didn't leave much though - maybe just a couple ounces.

i put some micecycles out - within 20 minutes 2 had been moved out of the crock and stashed in a corner...went out to shovel the bit of snow we got and when i checked on them before i left for work, one of the mice was headless...was probably obi that did that as he tends to start at the top and work his way down...

i expect to see nothing left when i get home

i have to restructure the cage assignments...

i was at the lupron clinic on sunday and discussed finola's tail - it's got no fur yet the rest of her is totally lush, so, it's not a melatonin wearing off issue...doc said the fur is sheared off. and that must be boo who's doing it. he's been the 'mad-groomer' ever since he started on the lupron (i don't think it's working all that well for him). noticed last night that pixie's tail is getting a little sparse...have to take a better look tonight - i think boo moved on to furrier pastures to satisfy his grooming needs...

i hate to have to split him and finola - i'm going to have to tho (at least until i get him better situated with his adrenal)...so, i'm going to put dunc and boo together - still want boo to have some one to watch eating the raw until he gets the complete hang of it...

[Heather]

No, your guys aren't weird. Napoleon and Natasha (the only ones who were kits when they were switched) use their paws to eat. All the others were kibble fed when kits and they don't use their paws. This does make it more difficult for them when eating boned meats. That's one of the reasons why I cut through the meat to the bone, pulling it away a bit. I usually criss-cross the cuts. They seem to do fine that way and most of my guys prefer their meat on the bone. Most of my guys seem to stash whole meats unless they're really large chunks. You have to find what appeals to them. Obviously, your guys really enjoyed that whole chunk of meat. It gives them something to work on. Now, I have a boy, Captain Jack who reacts similar to your Winston. I don't know what he thinks going to happen (the meat's going to attack him ) He does it with mice too, he's ok once they're dead and eats the whole mouse (by the way ferrets have it right the largest amount of pure nutrition with all the trace elements is the head) but he's a little odd. He loves his food but he's got some strange quirks
You got some to eat the lamb, that's good. With some of the meats you may never get everyone to like it. Some of my guys won't give you the time of day for lamb, others it's turkey (go figure, everyone will eat chicken ) I've got everyone who will eat mice, but some won't eat rats It's trying to remember who eats what, so that you don't give those meats in a row.
Good luck with the whole lupron thing. Poor wee things, they get so messed up with the adrenal thing. I've got a couple, went years without a one:'(
ciao

[joclyn]

ahh, that makes sense...as kits on kibble, they didn't 'need' to use their paws so never did; as a result, they don't associate that they CAN use them to assist with the big hunks of meat. makes perfect sense!

well, i'm hoping the lamb thing is an issue of supplier and/or particular cut used. i really think one of those is the issue - i've given lamb almost a dozen times already and this is the first time winston didn't eat it (and the first time i used a dif cut as well as got it at a dif store).

cornish hens will work better for leaving the meat on the bone - smaller sized, so, will be easier for them to deal with when whole. and i do want them to have the stimulation of 'working' for it as well as i do want them to have the bones too. can't do the wings ALL the time...although, they do seem to enjoy the extra skin that's on them...

and, yes, i do realize that they will each have their preference of what they like the best...just like us, they're all individuals.

since that can be an issue, is it a good idea to do a mix of meats at the same time? i would think that would be okay especially if there's something someone just won't eat at all...

[Heather]

Give it a try and see. It can't hurt. I've never had to switch more than 4 ferrets at a time, so I just switched using the same meats for simplicities sake. Using more than one type of meat certainly isn't wrong as there are a couple of ladies on board who have ferrets who are allergic to chicken and they switched using different types of proteins (this was because the allergy didn't show up right away, or wasn't recognised right away)
Let me know how it goes
ciao

[joclyn]

until it's clear there's an issue - whether it's allergy related or that they just really don't like something - i'm not going to worry about it. just wanted to check if it's okay to mix stuff if there's a circumstance that basically requires it...

since they had mice yesterday during the day, and due to time issues, i didn't give them anything last night.

gave them more of the chicken this morning. cut the meat up in very small pieces - at or smaller than the kibble - and obi went right for it and basically ate almost half of what i'd put out

duncan had some, and finola and boo. boo i helped by holding it for him...an he did eat a couple and then started stashing...finola ate a few and then started stashing too. they did seem to have an easier time of it and seemed to enjoy it more since it was a smaller size - especially boo. he's still getting used to the idea of having to rip things apart to get the food (finola's got that down just fine tho).

winston i focused on. let him have time by himself at the crock. kind of interested yet didn't take any himself. willingly took it out of my fingers, tho. ate one piece and then started stashing. yet, would take the piece from me if i offered it. let it be and then put him back near it and he did eat some on his own.

not even a hint that there was anything in the crock when i got home from work. was really not enough meat for all of them to have a full meal though.

i don't have time to wait for something to defrost (ended up rushing out this morning and didn't take something out of the freezer so it could defrost in the fridge). so, i'm going to put mice out - even though they just had them yesterday. i want to stay in some kind of routine to keep the interest going.

thinking about it and making comparisions. the lamb that i just got was not real juicy...the other lamb was. maybe it's the difference in the cut or maybe it was a freshness issue. dunno. the chicken leg was nice and juicy and even after i'd defrosted the chunk of meat i'd frozen, it was still nice and juicy...that seems to be of more interest and they all came over to the crock as i was filling it.

so, maybe it's that the meat was too dry? they do all seem to lick whatever before actually biting it...so, with no liquid/juice to taste, maybe they figure it's not something edible?

[Heather]

My guys have problems with dry meat. You may indeed have hit the nail on the head, so to speak. It's strange isn't it....they will eat week old, dried up meat but they'd far rather eat fresh juicy and will shy away from drier meat cuts, when you just serve it up.
ciao

[joclyn]

i put mice out last night...boo dug one out of the crock and kind of played with it for a bit. so, hopefully, he actually had a taste during the night.

obi is so funny! he absolutely LOVES mice and does this dance when he gets one he was in 7th heaven - dancing around, patting the mouse, came over to thank me, danced again and rolled around on the floor and back and forth to the mouse and then away from it. almost like he was so excited about it he didn't know what to do.

so, i picked it up and held it out for him...and he grabbed it with both paws and held it to his chest and hugged it all the while with this big sappy grin on his face! it warms my heart to see him so joyful. he's not normally too expressive - goes about his business in his big lumbering way and doesn't really bother anyone and isn't phased by too much...mice, tho, they really get him going! it was just so sweet.

and, of course, he went right for the head and CHOMP!

this morning nary a bit of any of them was to be found. i just hope that more than obi and duncan had some!

they were looking for more stuff...kept going to the crock i've been putting the raw stuff in.

and i didn't have anything i could put in it! thought about putting some giblets except that they are not only frozen, they're also still whole...so, i didn't think that would be good.

so, will give them when i go home - put them in the fridge to defrost before i left this morning. i think i'll try the liver again over the weekend - will mix it up with something though, to tone down the richness. and i do have some baby quail - maybe i'll do that on sunday - with meat chunks the rest of the time.