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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 20, 2008 11:15:08 GMT -5
Noone touched the rest of the soup or the gizzards last night. I think they held a ferret town hall meeting and decided they were a little too enthusiastic about mama's new goop cause they all showed their butts this morning except Max. Poor baby was so skinny and frail for so long I think he is enjoying his new bulk and energy. There was scruffing and fussing all the way around for the others..... lol So they all got a few tablespoons and some small chunks of fat and meat and then Killa and Bubba started pushing the treat bowl all over the living room.....ha ha ha I put the rest in the pen and drizzled a little heavy cream over it. Well, they couldnt resist the new ammo and Buster, Sully and Bubba were back at the bowl. I gave Boudreaux a whole leg portion from a wing split open with some meat and fat hanging off. I held it and he tore a couple of pieces off and ate them, then he grabbed it from me and ran under the end table with it. He had it wedged up in the corner trying to eat it: He dug at it for about 5 minutes and then left it. He just doesnt know how to hold on or chew on it well. Any ideas? He seems to be starting to really show an interest. All the rest took one sniff and turned up their nose. Anyway, I put a snack tray in the pen today also. It is separate from the soup. It has a few pieces of cut up gizzard, an ox tail sliced down the sides, a spare rib (Im cooking them today...ha ha) with some of the meat cut off and cut up, Boudreaux's bone and a couple of pieces of chicken jerky I am trying to get them to start eating instead of nbones. I may had to throw it all away later but the exposure is there.
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 20, 2008 21:23:23 GMT -5
Well, they came out tonight and I took the meat they didnt touch today and cut it up small and put it in some egg and cream mix. They all wanted the egg and cream....ha ha ha I sat on the floor and spooned some of the meat and had a few takers. Before they finished, I took the raw soup for the night and drizzled the egg/cream/meat mix in it. I sat on the floor and spoon fed everyone. Buster is so funny. He will pace around the area like a tiger. He doesnt want to damage his ego by admitting he likes it....hee hee I sat him in my lap and he ate a lot. All of them did as long as they sat in my lap and I spoon fed them. Someone did steal a piece of the chicken jerky today. I tried to get them all to bite a bone but they just hate them. I think I may get the grinder afterall.It is an all metal, electric, brand name grinder. Do you think it would grind the wing/thigh bones??? I would rather get them eating a ground mix than staying with soupies forever. The poo is a little better with the pumpkin. If I could get them eating jerky, that would help the teeth and a ground mix with bone would take care of the meat and calcium. I could make some separate grind with organ for once a week. Since this is going to take a while, what do you think about that plan. I was susposed to go out of town for a week at christmas and I cant see trying to get a sitter that has this much time. I would like them at least stabilized on something by then. Buster and Bubba are eating a lot of the meat soup now and if they all stop eating kibble, I want them to have some firm food as a staple. I took some dried lamb treats and small pieces of chicken jerky and sprinkled some water on them and put them in a bowl so they would get a little soft. Buster came out and got a piece of the lamb treat and disappeared under the cage. Bubba ran off with the other piece of chicken while we were eating soupies and stashed it somewhere. It may be easier to get them to start with jerky.
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Post by Heather on Sept 20, 2008 22:30:18 GMT -5
We should have them eating at least a ground mix by Christmas. You've already got them going a good distance in just a couple of days. I find once they start eating it off the spoon without scruffing that they're well on their way to eating it on their own. I've had furbabies who have eaten ground rmb (raw meat and bones) for a couple of years without ill effects. It's not the best, obviously but much better than eating kibbles. You will have to keep an eye on teeth but they will even keep cleaner than the kibbles. What brand of grinder are you looking at? I've got a list of grinders, I don't have prices and the recommendations in what to look for is: 250 watt power and not to go below 200 watts. Try and get one with a metal auger and housing, the plastic ones have a tendency to split. Reverse is nice to have (especially if it gets gummed up) but not necessary. Some brands that are recommended are Cabela, Northern tools, Chef's Choice, Lem777 and Moulinex. I've never used any of these products but they're listed as machines that have successfully been used to grind up meat and bones. When I make my ground mix I use: 8 lbs of ground chicken and bones 1lbs of hearts and liver 3 eggs 6 oz of pumpkin I then mix and place in smaller bowls and freeze. This will last me about 2 weeks. When I defrost the bowl I will then add 1 tbsp of marine fish oil and sometimes some kefer or a little bit of heavy cream. That's my recipe that I've been using for over 10 yrs for both my ferrets and my cats. This means that everything is balanced, everything else is bonus So then I don't feel I'm under any pressure to force my guys to eat bones....they get them and they eat them but to me anything else is icing on the cake. I hope that this helps you a little bit. You're doing great and I think that we should be able to get your guys at least eating ground raw food by Christmas. I will check with you tomorrow. ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 20, 2008 22:52:06 GMT -5
I found a great grinder on northern tools and ordered it. Are any specific bones better than others as far as the nutrients they get from them? In the comments, many hunters said they ran bones through without a hitch. Thanks for the recipe. I think I would feel better about this cause Ive got so much raw meat being cut up and stored in different bags and containers, I dont want anyone getting sick....ferrets or hoomans!!! LOL Im excited, I think they may go for this since they are doing well with the raw. I have plenty of soup for now that is frozen in cubes and should get the grinder within a week. Do you think if I can get them eating the jerky, I will help keep the teeth clean?
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Post by Heather on Sept 21, 2008 8:21:08 GMT -5
Bone is the best cleaner, the jerky will help, I won't deny it. It's the ripping and tearing thing. Having the meat pull through the teeth (think flossing ) and having the bone grind up and chip the plague off the teeth. That's why the ground works well too. The mix that I get isn't ground real fine...now you may have to grind (double grind is what my butcher calls it, he says to put it through the finest grinder head gums up the machine) to begin with. Just until your guys get used to chewing on chunks of bone. I've found that no one grinds anything other than chicken, some of the smaller turkey (wings and such not legs, though you can put the tendons in the grinder with the rest of the meat). I can't get pork or beef. If I want to make a mix of the bigger beasties...I mix in some chicken necks to make up the bone I"m glad the recipe helped. I know that I find it beneficial for when the guys first get started (when they haven't got the idea of eating bone) and when they're sick (I add an egg to make a soupy type mix ) and they love it. It covers all the bases (it may be a bit lazy ) but I never have to worry about the mix not being balanced, or if a furbaby won't eat liver (it's hidden in the mix) I will check in later tonight. Good luck ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 21, 2008 15:13:20 GMT -5
I think this will be good cause it may take a while to get them eating bone. Im not giving up, just making sure I have a healthy mix over the long haul. By adding the pumpkin to the ground, and with the bone in there, will that be sufficient to move stuff through without lax??? Is there any danger of the small chips of bone rupturing their stomach??? I will post pics of my first mix so we can discuss the consistancy. A lot of people from the BARF website recommended this one for the dog owners who grind the bones too. That is the benefit of owning one, the health dept cant tell me about cross-contamination......ha ha ha I think I already have that going on in the kitchen....hee hee So they are out playing now and I have a small piece of chicken breast to add to the raw soupies today so they will have the opportunity to chew if they want. I mentioned I put some lamb treats (about 6) and small slices of chicken jerky in a bowl last night with the leftover soup in a separate bowl. I just drizzled water on the jerky so it would be a little moist. Well I had to work this morning so they didnt get morning playtime. I let them out around 3 and all the jerky is gone and almost all of the leftover soup. We are marching right along!!!!!!! Not sure if it is stashed or eaten but I will clean the cage out tomorrow afternoon and find out then.
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Post by Heather on Sept 21, 2008 21:59:26 GMT -5
You shouldn't have any problem getting stuff to move along. I do occasionally use ferret lax in the shedding season because I have a couple of lazy slugs who won't eat whole prey or not enough of it to move things along So you might consider adding it once in awhile...but not on a regular basis and right now you're having enough problems keeping their stools solid. You're not likely going to have problems of ground bone being either sharp enough or large enough to cause any internal damage. I've honestly, never heard of raw bones becoming a problem, except about 5 or more years ago..someone's lab (note dog not ferret ) swallowed 2 whole turkey legs. Didn't even take a nibble...swallowed the whole thing . He got a stomach ache and did a little bit of damage to the colon has it came out, exactly how it went in... one leg bone less meat. That's one of the reasons why we tell people who's dogs are new to this whole raw thing to avoid weight bearing bones But other than that one incident I've not heard of anyone having a problem with "raw" bones. There have been plenty of problems with cooked (but you know I've heard of a lot of dogs raiding the trash and eating the whole turkey carcass at Thanksgiving and not coming out of it any the worse for wear except a good (or bad) case of the poops. I just wouldn't risk it if I could avoid it No, you shouldn't have problems with the ground bones in your guys diet. Great success....see someone gets hungry and eats food...they're now recognising what you're serving as food. That is the first giant step. I will check in with you later and see how things are going. ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 22, 2008 15:11:51 GMT -5
We're making slow but steady progress on the soup. Buster will eat from the bowl if I get him started and I saw him eatng chunks. I had cut up breast meat and ground pork in it today. Bubba doesnt stay long at the bowl but will eat a little. When I get the grinder and they all start eating meat, I will start decreasing the kibble a bit. Someone keeps taking all the jerky out of the bowl at night. They eat the square lamb treats and chicken jerky strips but the lamb strips were just spread all over the pen. Thats ok, we are moving right along.
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Post by Heather on Sept 22, 2008 20:51:52 GMT -5
Progress is all we're looking for I'm glad that Buster's starting to consider eating on his own. That is indeed progress. Is Bubba eating enough to maintain his weight? I will check back with you later. ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 23, 2008 16:43:51 GMT -5
Bubba is a tank at over 3 pounds!!! He is still eating a lot of kibble. Im not worried about him at all. They are starting to slack a lot on the soup again. Noone is losing a lot of weight though, Actually, I started giving Sully slippery elm bark along with killa and she is actually starting to slim down a little (she needed to, she was actually looking obese and unhealthy)She looks real good. maybe she has some type of ulcerous condition and was over eating to make it feel better. I still have to work with Killa. He will eat a little but if I dont sit with him, he will walk away. He was a runt baby so he is small anyway. He hasnt regained the weight that he had before, but his backbone is not protruding anymore. Chuckie is eating meat like a hound and is actually getting a little bulky which has never been the case with him. You cant keep max from the meat. He is enjoying him chuncky new figure.....ha ha ha Boudreaux is staying slimmer than normal and I have to work with him too. All the leftover soup was left in the cage last night and they didnt eat a lot this morning. At least I know when they eat, they are eating meat and not crap. So Killa and Boudreaux are my only real concerns at this point, but as long as I hold them and spoon feed them, they do eat. They all had a 2 hour playtime this morning and everyone was very active, in fact they were wild!!! Even Sully was playing today and chuckie was tackling people which is not his norm, so we are seeing changes in energy, body bulk of of course the ferret game over food with me continues!!
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Post by Heather on Sept 23, 2008 23:04:48 GMT -5
Sounds good Isn't it amazing what happens with these furbabies once the raw food starts getting into their systems. I don't think I've ever seen such a change as my little old lady, Babushka. She's old by anyone's standards, she's going to be 10 come February. When she was turned into me she basically did nothing but sleep. Her previous person, mentioned that she had been steadily loosing weight and she no longer showed interest in anything. I was all set to not be having her for very long. Now, I'm not so sure . She's up and wandering around, she doesn't really play but she's active and investigates everything. She doesn't do a 2 hr peak activity but she's steady and is awake a good hour at a time. I can only attribute it to the new diet. Some of the things that you're going to notice is that your furbabies may slim down but they won't loose weight. Raw food seems to muscle them up instead of just adding fat (of course muscle weighs more than fat) Killa may actually take more time for you to see a change, and he may not be as food motivated as some of your other furbabies. He may also suffer more from stressors and react by not eating. You're doing great, I will check in with you tomorrow morning. ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 24, 2008 16:40:31 GMT -5
Woo Hoo, the grocery store had a sale today....jumbo packs of ck thighs for 1.00/lb. I got about six and put them in the freezer. They also had buy 1 get 1 free country ribs so I got a large pack for them, and one for us...ha ha ha. I got a large pack of turkey necks (7) and another tub of ground pork. Im a little worried about Killa so I threw 6 thighs on to simmer and am going to make a small batch of the cooked soup to mix with the raw and one organ cube tonight packed full with ground pork (they really seemed to like the pork). I got an email they shipped the grinder but it still may be about 5-7 days till I get it, however, when it comes in, I have a large pack of country ribs, turkey necks (are those bones ok?), chicken and beef livers, gizzards and anything else I can find......ha ha. I will follow your recipe as found as pounds of meat/bone=amount of organ. The only exception is I just cant find chicken hearts. Since it is muscle, will gizzards make up for what a heart would provide??? Their mix will still be mostly raw tonight, but if I need to step back a little with killa and give him more cooked, I want him to put on some weight. He is real borderline and about 2 skipped meals away from his backbone protruding again. I also left one turkey neck out and am going to cut it in half and cut some meat strips to hanging off of it and see if I play with the and chase them with it, they may want to play with me and my neck.....LOL
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Post by Heather on Sept 24, 2008 23:07:14 GMT -5
You may want to just make up a batch of semi cooked for Killa, rather than pulling the whole business back for him. Just a thought. The reason for the heart is for the taurine. I will do some research for you to see if you can indeed supplement the gizzards for the heart. Can you get hold of beef heart? If your guys will eat it we might try substituting that. Just a thought. You might try taking a hammer to your chicken neck, it might make it more chewable for your guys Good luck with your chicken neck chase You might try tying a string to that chicken neck and seeing if your guys will play a game of hunt and chomp I will check in and see how things are going later ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 25, 2008 10:50:58 GMT -5
I read your message after I fed them. There is still much raw in the mix, but everyone ate a lot better. I had a lot of ground pork which they are all eating well. Noone but Boudreaux wants anything to do with the turkey neck. I held it and he pull a piece of meat and drug it off. He ate half and left half. Then he came back for the whole neck and stashed it under the barbecue pit (they had outside play, it was gorgeous this morning). Anyway, they are all in bed with very full tummies and a small fresh batch in there for this afternoon. I put the turkey neck in a stash box under the cage for Boudreaux. They arent expensive enough to worry about the waste, maybe if I keep one in there every day, more will take an interest. Our ac is set at 70 so would it be ok to keep 1/2 neck in there for 24 hours??? 12 hours??? I was reading another thread about ground going bad in 4 hours. I have been leaving the ground/raw mix in there for about 10 hours at a pop, but it doesnt stink when I take it out. Sometimes they eat it all, if not, I split it up with the dogs when it comes out so they get a treat too. Does the low temp in the house help or am I testing fate leaving this stuff in there so long??? I want them to keep eating the ground well, even if it means i take a little step back with some cooked soup, it is only about 1/4 cooked to 3/4 raw. When the grinder comes in I will be making a huge batch of mixed ground. I plan on reducing the soup slowly and drizzling it over more of the grind mix, so I want a soup they will all readily be interested in. Im hoping to just have them piling their faces into bowls of ground mix!!! :PI also read a recommendation that the liver be mixed in right before feeding.......did we agree that it would be ok to grind this with the mix and freeze? ? I just want to make sure I am getting good nutrients in there for them since I started this switch 7/22, so now we are at a 2 month mark. I did add Taurine and calcium caps to the raw soup I made so there are additional goodies in that, but that was also frozen in tubs. I also used cajun measurements (you know, a litte of this, a little of that.... ), I based it on an adults average weight and their combined weight, but who knows if my calculations are enough to help....I erred on the low side. It would be really hard to find time to make all fresh-non frozen soup with 7 little (getting bigger...ha ha) piggies!!!! You mentioned the hearts provide taurine, wouldnt liver provide that too, assuming the freezing process wouldnt compromise the benefit. I may also go get about 4 mice and let Boudreaux dispatch them (Ill let the others watch and take part if they want) and he can eat what he wants for a few hours and I could put that in the grind mix too for fiber (fur??). Thats a disgusting thought to me but maybe it wont be so obvious with a high powered electric grinder!!!! Since it is getting time for winter shed, and I am noticing a lot of extra hair, I am concerned about hairballs. Is bone considered a type of fiber to move through them??? Should I continue pumpkin cleanouts weekly??? Id like to avoid lax/pet jelly if I can.
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Post by Heather on Sept 25, 2008 15:31:22 GMT -5
Ok, I see where you're coming from...ok Leaving raw food out....I'm not that picky. Ferrets won't eat meat that is bad for them...(it would kill us ) I've seen them pull out a wing tip from who know's where and eat it but refuse to eat a stashed pile of ground. So they know. I've left ground meat for them to eat overnight...so you're looking at 10 or so hours. If they don't eat it then the dog will (now if the dog won't eat it...throw it out ) Yes, definitely mix the liver right in there with the rest of the ground rmb's (oh by the way, it becomes a liquid when put through the grinder ). When I make my mix everything goes in....except the taurine (if I"m adding), and the marine fish oil. All the rest goes in before freezing, the eggs, the liver, hearts. I don't throw the gizzards in because my guys like them as treats (they're great for teeth cleaning too) Yes, if you find that Beaudreaux is more into just killing throw those little mice in fur and all, then everyone will get the benefit. I would continue to use the pumpkin...just me. If your guys were eating whole prey then I would say not to bother. It's the whole hair, skin, bone mix that takes everything out. You don't quite get that benefit when feeding frankenprey so then we use the pumpkin I'm glad to hear that they're getting to be little piggies that's what we're looking for I think I've covered all your questions except for the taurine...I'm still waiting for an answer about that. See there is taurine in all meat, just varying degrees...so in truth I can't see why liver wouldn't provide a higher percentage of taurine but what I want to find out is if it's high enough or do you get too much vit a by the time you get enough taurine...do you see where I'm getting at? So I will get back to you on that. ciao
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