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Post by Heather on Sept 11, 2008 10:09:36 GMT -5
Thanks I have a couple of guys who will grab food and run, rather than eat with the business. It's nice that you make a separate bowl for him. Ok....lets try this....take a small amount of your soup and take less than a teaspoon of the ground raw...throw that into the blender and let them try this. Just the smallest amount of raw. We're going to go the route that we do when we switch cats (finicky little creatures that they are ). It will probably take awhile so as much as I hate to use it go to the health store and get a small pkg of bone meal, either that or take an egg and empty it's contents (make an omelet or bake a cake ), wash it out and let it dry. When it's thoroughly dry then pound it to a fine dust. I want you to add 1 tsp of this powder to 1lbs of soupy. If it's too granular they probably won't eat it so it has to be a powder. Let me know how you're doing, I will check in later. ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 11, 2008 23:05:18 GMT -5
I am making new soup tomorrow so good timing. I made a batch and threw whole raw eggs in it and gound up the shells in the blender and they ate it. Ill just cook eggs for breakfast and I can throw the shells in the blender. I have to say though, tonight, Max, Chuckie, Sully, Boudreaux and BUSTER were tearing the ground meat up!!!! Buster didnt eat as much but was at the bowl for a while. They ate all the leftovers in the bowl last night. Do you want me to continue with the ground or blend it with the soup.? Chuckie actually had his feet in the bowl and was pushing the others out with his head.....ha ha ha Ill take some pics tomorrow when I get the new soup made.
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Post by Heather on Sept 12, 2008 0:00:02 GMT -5
Remember, not to add more than 1 tsp of egg shell to 1 lbs of meat or soupy....any more than that and you could cause some stool problems So you've got Max , Buster, Chuckie, Boudreaux and Buster all eating ground raw meat??!! Are the other two still eating just the soupy? If I understand you, you've got two levels of feeding. Two eating the soupy with all the mix of stuff and 5 eating raw meat...is there anything in the meat? So, if I understand what you've said we really only have 2 that are really giving us trouble, correct? Yes, add a tiny bit of raw meat to their soupy...we want to get them up to the rest of the business. If you haven't already done it add 1 tsp of egg shell to 1 lbs of meat for your other furbabies. I usually add 1 whole egg (raw of course) to 1 lbs of meat along with some offal (liver and heart) to my raw ground mix. If we can get them to eat that then we're half way there to getting them to eat whole meat too The harder part will be to get the last 2 of your business to accept this new diet...great stuff. I will check on you in the morning to see exactly what is what and who's eating what. From what I can tell we're moving forward nicely. Congratulations, with all the upheaval that you've had lately, this is quite an accomplishment. ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 12, 2008 11:38:33 GMT -5
I quit putting the chucks of raw in because they just started stashing it all. I think they just got shook up from the evacuation and changes in cage and play area. I just started adding the ground pork and turkey to the soup and actually the meat eaters are much more receptive to the ground. Their stools have been real messed up, not diahreah, but very mushy, almost thick liquid looking. It may have been my over zealousness making soup with too many whole raw eggs and pushing organ cubes too soon. It is starting to straighten out now and the poos are getting more substance now that they are back on soup with just chicken and pingfords. I am going a little slower now. Maybe if they are doing so well on the ground, I should just stay there with egg shell in the soup for a week or two. I can work with Bubba and Killa to get them eating the ground more. The rest are GOBBLING the ground up a lot better than they ever did the chunks. I just got the cage back together 3 days ago since I lost all the hardware so had to make brackets to hold the cages together and find bolts that matched, and just got the outside play area back together this morning as I wasnt sure if we were going to have to leave again. So maybe, just stay with the ground for a week and see what happens? The ones that are eating it out of the soup are not stashing, and Buster, the biggest holdout is actully eating a couple of pieces himself!!!!
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Post by Heather on Sept 12, 2008 12:30:39 GMT -5
Ok....let's not look at it as a couple of weeks...let's do the wait and see. OK? I would like to get your guys eating bone instead of egg shell but we'll take our time. Don't worry I agree that moving too fast isn't the answer and as I said before because you're switching 7 furbabies all at once you have to find a happy medium. So let's stick with the ground for a little bit, try and bring Killa and Bubba up to where the rest of the business is at. Yes, too much egg will cause loose icky stools Not real good for the cleaning up dept. I have one little boy, Napoleon who's an egg pig...he'll sit there and suck back a whole egg by himself and then he's grosse for the next couple of hours with the loudest potty noises My son actually claims that Napoleon smiles when he's in the litter box. Quick question....do you have access to ground chicken with bone in. It would have to be from a pet supplier (unless you grind your own, and don't try and do it in your food processor...it does horrible things to your blade ) Some butchers will get you what they call pet grind (my butcher does and has quite a small business doing just ground pet food). This would make some of this so much easier for you if you can find this. Another thing might be a hand grinder, back when I did have only 6 or 7 ferrets I used to hand grind (you know the old crank grinders) my ground chicken and bones. With the large ones you can grind up even chicken legs (takes a bit of muscles but still doable). It's just a thought with your guys passion for ground (my guys love it too ) Anyway, I hope that you're not in the path of Ike or whatever the newest storm is. I know I have a bunch of friends in who do ferret rescue down in Texas and they're all in the direct path of this newest storm....not good. I'm really worried about them Good luck, take care ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 12, 2008 13:29:59 GMT -5
Ill check with the local butchers here, does it matter what part of the chicken the bone comes from? Are you familiar with the ingredients in Pingfords pooridge? It does say it has "whole cooked egg" so Im assuming they are getting a little calcium from that. Ill see what I can come up with on the grind mix.
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Post by Heather on Sept 12, 2008 22:42:43 GMT -5
The parts that are ground into the grind mix done by my butcher are made up of mostly necks and legs and thighs. I'd never heard of Pingfords porridge until I came on list . I don't honestly think we can get it up here. The only specialty thing for ferrets that we can get is Marshals duk soup (I've never been able to get a ferret to eat this) and Carnivore care that I get from my vet which I use as a temp. nutritional boost to start a ferret eating again after being very ill and cannot eat the raw ground mix (I've used it maybe 3 or 4 times in all the time that I've had ferrets) The cooked whole egg will probably involve the egg itself, not the shell so very little calcium. They just mean that it includes egg yolk and white. The carnivore care uses only cooked yolk and it has to specify this. Good luck with your search...another thing you might try is some pet food stores now carry preground mixes too. This becomes very much buyer beware. I have found a mix that involves only meat, bone and offal, a lot of them involve a lot of veggies in their mix and this isn't a good thing for your furbabies. I will check in with you tomorrow and see how you and your furbabies are doing ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 18, 2008 8:37:16 GMT -5
Just wanted to let you know we are still here. I have been adding a lot of ground pork and turkey to the soup and most are eating it. I even think Buster sucked up a couple of pieces. Him and Bubba are the big holdouts but they are both eating soup and a couple of pieces here and there. Now when i leave the leftover pieces of meat and soup in the pen during the day, it is getting finished off. Had a couple of stomach issues with Sully and Killa. Sully has gotten so fat (started before raw and became real lethargic. Vet says the checkup is fine and gave me some Famotidine for her tummy for a few days. Killa started losing weight when we evaced for Gustav, he actually got so skinny his stomach was gone and you could see his backbone. When I got home I started syringe feeding him and added chicken baby food and baby banana and he put some weight back on. He is hesitant to eat too much soup or meat by himself, not sure if he is just spoiled and wants to be syringe fed but he is not gaining a lot. I am a little worried about vitamin deficiecy right now. Calcium, taurine and vit a are concerns, right? Any thoughts? You cant buy Pingfords Pooridge at the store. I order it from a member. It is a ground, powdery mix that consisits of Chicken, Turkey, Beef Liver, Beef Fat and whole cooked eggs. It has to be kept in the fridge so it wont go bad and I noticed the fur and activity level of the ferrets picked up when I started using it 6 months ago. No luck on a butcher. This is more of a city community and they dont have enough business for ground chicken. They all say the same thing....health dept doesnt allow for cross contamination of the grinding machine. I checked out grinders and didnt see any of them advertising being able to grind up bone. I may just go get some bone meal for the time being. I want them all to get used to eating the grind mix before I go further since I still have holdouts and they are resisiting the whole meat/bone thing. Any ideas on what else I should do for now??? Most wont eat kibble anymore so I have to make sure to keep soup available, but I have to admit, the poos are mostly runny mush except for those still eating kibble. They are not lethargic but I wonder if this is not a good thing to have the poos so messy for so long. It is somewhat concerning. The vet is not saying much, I dont think she is impressed and doesnt believe I will get them eating enough since they have all been fixed on kibble for so long, but she is not telling me it is unhealthy. She just kind of say uh huh and goes on with checking the ferrets.
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Post by Heather on Sept 18, 2008 11:09:04 GMT -5
Ok, stress is going to be part of the problem with your guys. That move would have really stressed them out, as it did you. I mean it's life but ferrets don't like life to intrude on their space I'm really concerned with Killa. What does your vet say about Killa. I'm wondering if he's got an ulcer....you haven't noticed any grinding of teeth or black poopies have you. Just loose stools from all your furbabies. Ok....here's the base recipe, it covers a lot of your bases. 8 oz raw chicken thigh meat (including skin and fat) (taurine ) 1 tsp of crushed eggshell powder (take a raw eggshell. Rinse it out. Let it dry. Crush to powder) (calcium) 1 raw chicken heart (taurine) 1/2 raw chicken liver (vit a and taurine) Water (use more to make it soupier, less to make it thicker) Now you then add your Pingfords Porridge to that? You are reasonably balanced. If you have concerns for taurine just add a capsul to your mix. Just remember that taurine is very temperature sensitive so add after you've thawed your meat ....now lets try and get those poopies under control. Easy, to start with....let's try adding about 1 tsp of pumpkin to your mix. This is not the filling just pumpkin nothing else. I may get you to see if you can find slippery elm powder if we can't get a handle on this. It's nutrient rich and helps with all sorts of tummy upsets. It's also relatively easy to find and basically tasteless I would get you to make a poridge of the stuff and then add it to your food for your little guys. Grinders....hmmm. I can get you a list of on line grinders that people have used successfully for grinding their pet foods if you like. I use a hand grinder for when I'm stuck without any ground meat (my cats won't eat whole meat....embarrasing ) I will check with you this evening and see if you have any questions. ciao
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 18, 2008 11:38:50 GMT -5
Yes, there have been black poops and a lot of them. I cant identify who does it though. They dont seem to do it while they are out of the cage. I do pumpkin cleanouts every month so I am used to the pumpkin. They actually love it!! Will take a couple of days to get all of the stuff, I havent been able to find chicken hearts. I got a tub of gizzards once but no hearts. Killa hasnt seen the doc yet since he put on a little weight with syringe feeding, I was going to see if this would straighten itself out. I was afraid of a blockage because I caught him chewing and shredding a new wicker basket I bought for their toys before we left and talked to the doc when I had sully in the other day but she said since it was three weeks ago (I threw the basket away!!) she felt he would be much sicker and throwing up all food by now if that was the case. While you were reading and posting, I did up the ante a little on them. They were all out playing and very active today. Remember when I was making all the different batches of soup? Well I still have them all so I mixed 7 cubes of regular soup (simmered chicken thighs, pingfords, nupro, ferretone), 1 cubes of organ soup (chicken liver, beef liver and whole eggs, however this mix was way too much and too strong to feed plain and on a regular basis), and two cubes of just plain simmered chicken legs and thighs soup. I also found a little frozen pack of one chicken wing leg and middle piecs. I took the middle piece and cut the meat off real small. I spilt the two bones apart and broke one in half and split one down the middle to expose the marrow. I mixed all the cubes together so they have all the different ingredients(organ, simmered chicken, pingfords, cut up raw chicken and ground raw pork) and put the two broken pieces of chicken bone in the soup and laid the split open bone in the middle. Someone in there likes marrow. I found a beef soup bone with a lot of marrow at the store the other day and someone dug a lot of the marrow out while I was at work. Anyway, most of them ate the soup. Buster of course ran to the kibble bowl....big butt!!!! After they were done eating I held the two broken pieces of bone up and Boudreaux ran off with one and Bubba ran off with one. I think they just stashed them but a stashed bone is better than no bone at all, right??? The two pieces of the split open bone are sitting in the bowl with a little left over soupie. We'll see if anyone shows interest today while I am at work. Oh and I took some pics for you......... Sully, Chuckie, Bubba and Max getting on the soup. You can see the split bone in the middle Boudreaux in his private bowl, Bubba is checking him out Max still going at it. After they were done, Killa was kind of hanging around but wouldnt eat out of the bowl so I spooned up about 3 tbspns of the mix with meat and scruffed him and made him eat it. He will suck it right up scruffed but not by himself. I will have everything to make the new soup tomorrow as my son has a football game in New Orleans tonight and I work the rest of the day. I have enough of the mix above through tomorrow and have a large bag of leg quarters thawing in the fridge for tomorrow.
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Post by Forum Administrator on Sept 18, 2008 20:28:41 GMT -5
Great pics! I'm happy to hear you are making progress. Its slow and steady, but you are getting somewhere and that's what matters I agree with heather on getting them onto the recipie for soup she posted above. Getting them onto RAW soup is the most important thing right now because by simmering you are destroying the taurine. Getting them all onto this raw soupie (again, posted above) is the next big step towards raw. I am so proud of you for sticking through this through hurricanes and stubborn ferts. I can't wait to celebrate with you once Heather helps you get them all switched! Good luck with the new soupie recipie, and I can't wait to hear how things progress!
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 18, 2008 22:38:46 GMT -5
Thanks Guiliana, I was having my doubts for a few days there, but too many are refusing to go back to kibble so if Im going to have to put a lot of effort out to get them to eat food, which kibble would be the same now, I may as well make the best choice. Yes heather, I would like to know what grinders you use. I dont mind a hand grinder if it will grind the bones up enough for safety. It would be great if there was one $50 or under. Does freezing kill the effect of taurine? I usually make a lot of soup at a time since 7 will wipe out a batch in no time. I may have to add soup cooked mix at first (couple of cubes to the raw mix) but they may go for it with the pingfords and pumpkin flavor in it. Just need to know about freezing the taurine. Would I add the slippery elm with the pumpkin. It probably wouldnt be a bad idea, may be all the black poops and loose stools are nerves. I have had them back to the norm with all cages and outside pens built back up for almost two weeks so they should be settling back down. It may have just been nerves from the exciting month we had.... Oh, and noone else touched the soup with the marrow bone. Punks. I think it may still be ok, the house is fairly cool. If it doesnt stink, Im gonna dip it in their soup tonight and see if I can get someone to take a bite or two......ha ha ha
***Note-I just made a batch of soup with a lot of cut up chicken and ground pork and the whole crew tore the bowl up. Now if you look at the size of the bowl in the pic, it is about an inch thick when they start. Then I took the leg portion of the wing I put in the fridge earlier and broke it in half and split it. (The one I left in the bowl today looked pretty funky!!) I took it over to Boudreaux with marrow oozing out of it and he was licking all over it. I held it for him and he tore a couple of pieces of the meat hanging off of it. He also was trying to bite the bone part with his back teeth as I was holding it. He didnt make much progress eating the bone but is definitely getting the idea. I have a question. Y'all always talk about the ferrets eating wing. Are the leg bones the same??? I have leg quarters to use tomorrow and Im going to make a large batch of raw as long as I can freeze it. I can cut all the meat off the leg bones and the thigh bones and just freeze them back in small bags. That way I can put one bone split in half in the cage each day and it may be easier to hold it still with their paws to try and crunch on it a little. Killa and Bubba were both all up in me and Boudreaux's face watching him bite on the bone. Sully, Max, Killa, Boudreaux and Bubba are all Nbone eaters so they may take to this if Boudreaux keeps this up and I finally found out who the marrow lover of the crowd is!!!!!!! Boudreaux is also my mouse hunter. I bet he will start eating more of the mouse if he keeps this up!!!
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Post by Heather on Sept 19, 2008 1:08:08 GMT -5
One thing you can do, if you have a couple that are showing interest in the bones is leave larger chunks of meat on the bones and let them have a go at that. You can also take a hammer to the whole bone (raw) and smash it with some of the meat attached. My guys love tearing at the leg bones and such...the bones themselves are usually too thick for them to make much of a dent but if they will eat the raw meat off the bone, they will also eat the knuckles off as well. That would be a good thing. Don't be afraid to freeze the raw. I do it all the time. Freezing will compromise the taurine, but not near as badly as cooking it will. Will your guys eat the raw gizzards...my guys love them (even my little old ladies would eat those before they were really into the whole raw thing ) Oh, if they do it the gizzards raw be prepared for dark poopies, it's just the extra blood from the gizzards...it's not something to worry about. The dark poops have me concerned, you might have someone there with an ulcer, I'm betting Killa as far as the major tummy upset. Your vet is probably correct in suspecting that if there had been a blockage you would probably have seen some other problems associated with it. You can give the slippery elm with the pumpkin. If you go into the thread (in this section), I believe it's apple's raw thread....go to the last series of posts I put in a link to a site regarding slippery elm powder and a recipe that you can use. If you want I can post it here too. I just don't have access at the moment. I love the pics of your guys munching and crunching. They look like they're really getting into it. You're doing fantastic. It's going to be a long go because you have so many little ones that you're switching at once. I will check up with you tomorrow. ciao Ohhh, I use an old, large hand grinder. It seemingly came across from Holland when my husband's parents came across just after the war. They used it for making sausage. So it's an oldy but it grinds up chicken and the bones without much problem. Try ebay or some places like that. One of the lady's found one at a flea market and picked it up for about $5...they're around it's just a matter of finding them.
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Post by ferretpalooza on Sept 19, 2008 19:03:31 GMT -5
I found a food processor part to my blender. I made the above recipe, very much larger. I got organic calcium and taurine at the health food store so I added some of that. I have to say, this is the most disgusting stuff I have ever made!!!!! Oh boy, I can see soup time tonight is going to be ugly!!! Im going to have to add a cube or two of the cooked to get started....hee hee I also got pumpkin so that may also help. I did see an electric grinder on sale at Pennys for $100. I hesitate to buy it cause if we get them eating bone, Id probably never use it again, so I have plenty of organic calcium and taruine caps to use for a while. I dont have time to go to garage sales or shop too much for that. Couldnt find hearts so I put some gizzards in instead. I got Slippery elm caps also. It says to feed it three times a day with warm water. Ill do it twice a day for Killa with warm soup and see if that makes a difference. Poor baby will not eat unless you scruff him to get him started and hand feed him. He is playing at about 75% level and holds food down once eaten so Ill see if this helps for now. If not, Ill make an appt for him with the vet next week, but my husband is having surgery monday so, well, you know how sick men are......ugh!!!! I also scruffed Buster last night and got him to eat a few pieces of the last of the soup with chicken and ground pork. So we will see where we stand with all this in the next week. Im freezing all the excess in cubes so I have raw cubes, organ cubes and cooked chicken cubes. I have some fresh gizzards to cut up and found some ox tails.....ha ha. I have a lot of leg bones I left meat on for them to play with. Im stripping the cage Sunday and mopping and cleaning it out and will make two large stash boxes underneath. Ill keep you posted. Note: I just fed the new mix, heres the update: Max is making a pig of himself! I scruffed Boudreaux and he ate a decent amount but as soon as he could get away he took off running.....big titty baby!! LOL I scruffed Buster and he acted like I was killing him until I got some in his mouth....BUSTER BROWN WAS SUCKING DOWN RAW SOUPIES TONIGHT!!! I even put him down and he was eating some by himself I gave Killa a little Slippery Elm in some banana baby food via syringe and then scruffed him and got him eating. He sat in my lap and ate a good amount off of a spoon. I scruffed Chuckie and got him started. He ate a lot off a spoon in my lap and then got on the floor and was eating little chunks of gizzard that didnt get chopped all the way up. I got Sully started and she ate some by herself. I had to scruff Bubba. He ate a little but was the most uninterested. So all had some tonight and I was real surprised by the reception. Pretty good for a first try. Are gizzards considered organs??? I was going to cut some small and put it in the little bit left over and leave it in the pen tonight.
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Post by Heather on Sept 19, 2008 23:16:41 GMT -5
Ahhh, so the first meal of raw went reasonably well. Good stuff. It just goes to show ferrets don't really care what their food looks like Yay Buster!! You go for it I'm glad that Killa ate well. That's comforting. Make sure that the slippery elm is dissolved in warm or hot water before giving it to Killa. Slippery elm will absorb twice it's weight in moisture so it's always adviced to create a gruel (that's what they call it) first and then feed it to your furbaby. You can even mix his in his soupy if you want. It has no real flavour so you can give it to him that way. Gizzards are considered muscle meat I believe. Kidneys and liver and by some people the heart are considered to be organs. Some consider the heart muscle meat too...which is true too Great work....your guys did fantastic for their first raw meal. I will check with you tomorrow evening (I'm working in the morning) and see if you had any takers on the gibblets during the night. Good luck ciao
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