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Post by AnimalFarm2006 on Jun 2, 2010 23:27:19 GMT -5
Just noticed that the post was changed. I didn't want to say thingy because it sounded kind of childish, but I see the reason why to change it.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jun 3, 2010 12:01:01 GMT -5
Not using the litter box may be adrenal-related since it may involve a stronger desire to do the territorial scent marking . As far as the lupron not working goes, some people feel that when the disease is no longer responding to the lupron that the tumor has grown larger an has a greater risk of being cancersous. AT this point in time, some people opt for surgery. IN THEORY, the best control would be involve removal of the affected tissue coupled with Lupron or deslorelin for the remainder of the ferret's life. Alternative optionsinclude anything from doing nothing to surgery with Lupron given on an "as needed basis" - I.E. if your ferret cannot pee, a Lupron shot may help with this. The size of a ferret's "thingy" should not affect his ability to pee. The protate is a gland that surrounds the os thingy (penile bone - and yes, ferrets actually have a real bone). The prostate can swell/enlarge due to hormones. when this happens, the prostate can interfere with the ferret's ability to pee. Some people treat adrenal with the melatonin only. Melatonin treats mostly fur loss. It seems to work best as an implant because it's somewhat ineffective if given orally at the wrong time of day. -jennifer
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Post by AnimalFarm2006 on Jun 3, 2010 19:46:31 GMT -5
Dingo's condition seems to be deteriating. He hasn't had the energy to play all month. He is still not gaining weight. And today his skin was realy loose. I know I should of talked to a vet sooner, but I did give him 0.3 ml of prednisone. It perked him up enough for him to gain a good appetite for kibble. Today I did the same and saw the same result. Not sure what that means for him, but I'll keep this low dose untill told otherwise. Could prednisone hurt a ferret? So...my next vet visit will be a blood glucose check for ding, and monster. And than a trip to woodbridge to talk about ding & monster. Would make a difference if you stop the shots for adrenal disease when they don't work? Dingo's just getting worse, surgery is not an option on him, and I realy just want him to be able to live out the rest of his life without getting poked and prodded. Have you ever did this for a ferret, or did you put him or her through another treatment? I also want to mention that I noticed Ripplys tail is baldish on the bottom of it. Her skin was greasy with some dried blood. or atleast I think it was dried blood. I took her a quick bath with some vinegar put on her for fleas just incase she just has been scratching. I hope it isn't adrenal, and just some random baldness.
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Post by Heather on Jun 3, 2010 23:14:12 GMT -5
You had better get him to the vet. I had a long conversation with my vet when we were treating Nicodemus. I wanted to treat him with pred because it had become obvious that we were treating a cancer rather than just tumours. She told me that because adrenal was hormonal by nature, that pred would actually aggravate the problem and possibly accelerate the tumours in the adrenal. If his skin is loose you're probably dealing with dehydration, if you can't give sub-q fluids you had better get him to a vet, so that he can be hydrated. Dehydration will also cause him to not want to eat. If he's dehydrated to the point that his skin is no longer flexible, he will no longer want to eat because this will make him nauseous. His heart will also not beat correctly (tachycardia)making him lethargic. Not doing any treatment isn't really fair. He's feeling terrible now, so you have to do something, even if it's to allow him to say farewell to this world. You can move to another non-invasive course of action but you should really do something. Deslorin is another method that can possibly give them temporary relief from the discomforts of adrenal. My understanding that this treatment is much more readily available to you in the US than us up here. Jennifer might have some more ideas about how to provide hospice care for your little one. One of the most difficult part of my job as a hospice operator is deciding that the quality of life is no longer being met and that all options have been exhausted and that it is time to present a furchild with the ultimate gift of forever sleep. It's not pleasant but it's part of being a responsible caretaker . ciao
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jun 4, 2010 10:23:04 GMT -5
I'm so sorry you're having to go through all this...it happens all too often with ferrets, and its unbeleiveably painful to deal with . If multiple adrenal symptoms (hair loss, itching, crinkly skin that has an "old/sun-damaged/crepe paper" look, issues urinating (in males), sexual/mounting behavior, etc. ), are still getting worse in spite of the lupron, it's likely that the tumor(s), which is/ probably cancerous, has/have grown beyond control of the pituitary gland. If the tumors are now responsible for the excess hormones, the disease will no longer respond to hormonal treatment (lupron and deslorelin work on the brain, but the tumors , which may now be producing the hormones, do not listen to the brain.) In other words, if multiple adrenal symptions are getting worse, and the last shot did not work or wore of extremely early after being given, another shot probably will not help even if it's a different drug. (A shot can wear off early, so an additional shot may be worth while depending upon overall health status.) ADrenal disease without complications does not make a ferret feel bad - in fact it makes them peppy. I've seen naked, itchy babies enjoy life. The complications set in when the disease causes prostate/infections issues (inabiity to pee), large tumors that affect other organ/cause pain, etc. In males, the life-limiting factor is usually the inability to pee. Dingo has been lethargic for quite a while. I assume he can still pee OK. For this reason, I suspect the most pressing issue is more likely to be insulinoma or something else. I don't know how bad off Dingo is at this point, but we know he has at least adrenal and insulinoma. Here's something to think about... Your big concern is lethargy, and you don't know how bad Dingo may be feeling. Is he in pain? Is he just tired? Can we make him feel better? This is where the torture comes in for you. (Been there, done that - it's the VERY WORST for me, which is why I cannot do what Heather does - she is a saint!) Here's something to think about... You do have options. One option would be to go into major debt and spend every penny you could beg, borrow, or steal on Dingo - and the outcome may not be much different..you may get another couple of months with Dingo, but these months may not be fun for Dingo. If this is the case, then they won't be fun for you either. The opposite end of the spectrum is to put Dingo down today. There are an unlimited number of options in between, which is what makes this so difficult. So where am I going with this??? You next step will depend on how Dingo feels, your financial situation, and how much emotional stress YOU can take. If Dingo's quality of life is not that great, you feel he won't be around much longer, and the adrenals are beyond responding to treatment, then perhaps the bit of prednisone might be the best option even though it comes with risk. It ultimately may not give Dingo the absolute longest life, but if he's eating and feeling better, it may be the right choice for Dingo and you. It sounds like you're at the point where there is no idea solution,so choices have to be made. There are always options - EVERY SINGLE option will result in feelings of GUILT - I can guarantee it...you're like most excellent ferret moms....there will always be "what if" scenarios you'll be blaming yourself for. You can't help it - you're a "mom" and you want to make everything perfect for your baby. If you can make another trip to the good ferret vet, it's probably time for a discussion about quality of life, the reality of budget constraints, and the possibility of giving him a little more quality time with light treatment like prednisone. And when that stops working, it will then be time to set Dingo free and let his spirit soar without physical limitations imposed by his body. I KNOW how bad this sucks. With my first two ferrets, one went quickly, the other had a long, slow decline, which for me was much more difficult to deal with. When I got each of my new ferts, we had a discussion. I told each one that he/she can leave when ready. But I made each one promise to NOT do that long, slow deterioration - I can't handle it. Of course my brats do not listen. I hope this post is helpful. It's not easy for me to write these types of posts, and I know it's much worse for you to read it. Two last things....if Dingo is dehydrated a sub-Q injection by a local vet would be a good thing to do if you cannot rehydrate him by getting him to drink more. The most important thing - please know that we all admire your courage for being and outstanding, caring ferret mom. Everybody has different things that guide them to their decisions. But please know that, whatever you choose to feel guilty over, it's only in your head....You have been and always will be the very best thing you all your ferrets' lives. Hugs to you and your babies -jennifer
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Post by AnimalFarm2006 on Jun 5, 2010 1:43:37 GMT -5
Update on Dingo- Today was kind of a weird day. I set everyone out around 6:30 am, and did not put them up until 1:00 am. Simba my dog did not want to sleep with me. So after cleaning up, they are back out. When I said his skin was loose, I forgot to mention that I did mix pedalyte with soup just for him. He ate some, but not a ton. I also place the foot and water on the floor while they are out. Dingo looks just about the same as yesterday: sleeps all day, actually allows me to hold him which he never use to let me do, and skin still looks like an old man's skin. He is eating, peeing, and drinking. I clean their water bowl every day to make sure they have fresh clean water. He and monster even have pet steps to get in the cage and on the bed. Right now the only factors are dribbling pee, enlarged manly parts, Lupron not giving him energy, some slow balding on the sides, and weight loss/no gain. I did not mean to mention that I was not taking them to the vet! I have a vet appointment at 2 pm tomorrow. I meant that I should of consulted the vet before giving pred, but I was feeling terrible on how he really didn't want to do anything anymore. Mustel: He did have a liver enzyme problem from Feb when I got him to about a month ago. They are returned to normal thank goodness as he HATED that medicine. I am going to talk to the vet about getting both their blood glucose tomorrow as I need to get them both checked. Monster is over due, and shows signs of slowing down again. And I will ask about the prednisone to at least make his life more comfortable. Right now I really don't know how I would tell it would be time to put him down. All of the animals that have been put down in my life, I ran away from. He would be my first that I have to be there for it. I want to make the right decision, but at the same time I want to make sure he is ready as well. Okay enough crying. lol you guys have me worked up. Update on Ripply- Her tail is blk and blue on parts of the tip of the tail. I did look up that it could mean a bone type tumor is growing, so surgery possible in the future. I think she would sprout her tail like a trophy, " Look. My tails shorter than yours " OR her tail just stays the same, and it is deemed my nerves being way to jumbled up. Will post with a new pictures of the visit, and a ferret video I need to officialy make for my you tube page. Cara & Kids
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Post by Heather on Jun 5, 2010 2:01:33 GMT -5
You may want to have the vet check Dingo's bladder. He may be having prostate issues if he's dribbling urine. My vet gave Mad Max some propecia because the lupron wasn't working for him. I haven't had to use it because for some reason his issues appear to have eased off. If it occurs again, I will start him up on his pills. I have to agree, this is the most difficult. I've had to sit on this side many times. You spend your whole time second guessing yourself....is he ready to go, am I not trying hard enough, should I do this, that, try another drug, another treatment. I know, and you most certainly have my deepest sympathies. I don't wish this on anyone, it has to be the most difficult decision that any one can make for one's little ones. A suggestion.....sit quietly with your little one, hold him if he will let you, but look in those eyes and listen with your heart. He will tell you if he's too tired to fight any more. You will know, you won't be happy about it, it won't hurt any less, just know it's the most unselfish gift that you will ever give a furchild. A healing candle is lit once more for your little one, and a candle is also lit for you, for the decision you must eventually make, to guide you through this very difficult time. ciao
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jun 5, 2010 10:20:08 GMT -5
Don't feel alone... I "lost it" writng my own post . I'm glad to hear that you still have some more time with Dingo...I'm hoping the vet can come up with some prostate relief - the dribbling urine suggests your boy may have a problem. He can still pee a lottle bit, which id good. But is seems he has partial obstruction and is not able to fully void his bladder. This can result in infection. THose bladder infections can require a different type of antibiotic....so even though Dingo was on antibiotics not all that long ago, he may have infection. Infection may cause swelling at the base of the bladder making the constriction worse. With a little propecia and antibiotics, it's possible that Dingo might improve quite a bit if he's having big pee problems. I'm hoping that this will be the case. Sending good thoughts and fert prayers your way. -jennifer
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Post by AnimalFarm2006 on Jun 5, 2010 17:20:35 GMT -5
Hey again. Just got back from the vet. The trip up was hot. Took me just about two hours to get to the vet due to some traffic on 95. Dingo has a melatonin implant, and monster apparenly has a 3 month lupron shot. Wish he woud of told me the month before. Both of them also got glucose checks, and dingo had his liver checked. The vet told me to go and head and try prednisone 0.4 cc to see if he gets any energy. Other than that, nothing is too new. He still is kind of pushy on surgery though. How long does the implant last?
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Post by Heather on Jun 5, 2010 19:15:38 GMT -5
I think the melatonin implants are monthly....I don't know that for sure though (I use oral). Jennifer will be able to tell you for sure though. Keep us posted. Hopefully, things will look up for the little guys. ciao
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Post by AnimalFarm2006 on Jun 7, 2010 16:14:54 GMT -5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ8R5PjbcrUI made a new video to show you guys the three sick kids. Than ofcourse my camera didn't take all the video. But i left comentarys! Dingo played yesterday & today. He looks more lively. ^.^ I will watch the pee thing, but i only saw him dripping pee once. Maybe it is just a random thing for him. Rip's tail is blk and blue all over. Their is a small bump that appears to be growing. I atleast have two jobs to do this week end. Friday for my demo works. Sat for some carnival job.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jun 8, 2010 19:33:46 GMT -5
the larger melatonin implant lasts about 3-4 months in most ferts.
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Post by AnimalFarm2006 on Jun 10, 2010 0:45:11 GMT -5
Hey you guys,
I was wondering what medical techniques I should become familiar with? Giving fluids, etc. I thought of these earlier today while chatting to a friend about the kids. I had realized that I really did not know any treatments. I do know-
How to stimulate a ferret to pee & poop thanks to a very well made website on ferrets. Force Feed.
But I don't know what to do if someone has a seizure, or really anything of that sorts.
An update on today: I noticed that swipper pooped clear liquid snot like poop. I tried researching it, but nothing came up. I also found out that dingo keeps pooping in the wrong place. He also peed. Why would he be missing the litter box? His poop is also bird seed like.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jun 11, 2010 9:07:02 GMT -5
With the exception of force feeding a ferret/giving medication, mot medical techniques are performed by a vet. Expressing the bladder may be something that needs to be done at home for prostate enlargement due to adrenal. But this must be demonstrated by a vet or vet tech. It's best if you watch and then try it with the vet there. Giving sub-cutaneous liquids for dehydration my be common, but you need to have the solution to be injected. If you had the fluid, you'd be getting it from the vet..the vet can demonstrate the correct technique at the time you get the fluid....that;s MUCH better than a description over the web. I've never seen a ferret have a seizure...but the only thing I've heard about seizures is keep your hands away from the animal so you don't get bitten. Wait until the seizure stops before feeding or putting karo syrup/honey on the gums (for insulinomic issues). Never put food/water in an unconscious or semiconscious ferret's mouth. Instead rub the karo syrup or honey on the gums, preferably using a q-tip or tool such as a tooth brush rather than your finger. Once the ferret becomes conscious/alert, the ferret can be fed with a syringe. Giving injections in the scruff of the neck.....The biggest warning regarding this is that ferrets have really tough skin. Once you put the needle through the scruff, check the opposite side of the scruff to make sure the needle did not go all the way through the scruff and out the other side....you would not be the first to inject meds into the air! I've never medicated the air, but have very weak arms/wrists, and I have a very difficult time getting a needle into a ferret's scruff - somehow, my vet makes this look so easy Regarding "the runs" and missing the potty box.... adrenal disease may be a contributor to all of this. There seems to be a correlation between IBD episodes and adrenal activity. In addition, the "stress' of disease can weaken the immune system allowing opportunistic bacteria/parasites that a normally present to proliferate in the system. Missing the potty box can be due to increased territorial marking (hormones in the ystem from adrenal) and/or "the runs". Try the pumpkin and/or a little ground eggshell. If the problem persists, take the you ferret to the vet. Antibiotics may be required to control the bacteria or determine what is going on. -jennifer
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Post by AnimalFarm2006 on Jun 14, 2010 13:11:52 GMT -5
Thanks a ton!
I am going to talk to the vet about possible getting some fluids on hand for dingo. He does get dehydrated. I'll go to the vet when he gets low, and ask him to show me the fluids.
I don't know if it territorial. It's more like he gets too lazy to make it to the bathroom area and goes in between. I did put blankets in that area to stop the behavior behind my bed, but I am working on under the night stand.
Today has been an upper. I ran out of kibble so I've been giving everyone bowls of soup. Dingo appears for every single bowl. ^.^ He loves his soup. Last night I fed the kids something like 5 mid sized mice. My ratties are opening their eyes so they are getting bigger every day. I still can not find pumpkin, but I have squash in baby food form. I give about one jar size a week for nine ferrets.
The only thing that had changed is my concern over not mony, ding, or ripply. But Bear. He's been coughing and hacking for the past week. At first I thought he had hair in his system, but now I'm not so sure. I read that coughing could be a heart issue, so I am going to listen to his heart and see if I can hear anything weird. He doesn't show any other symptoms like funny poops, laziness, etc. Bear has slowed down like 5%, but he's still active.
GAH! Ferrets give you a heart attack.
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