Saphire2815's Switching Thread

[saphire2815]

1. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names, ages, genders, and do they have any health problems (this is VERY important)?

Bandit ? Female ? 10 Months ? Healthy young girl.
Briar ? Male ? 3-4years? ? Healthy and Active, came from a malnourished/neglected situation and wanted nothing to do with me or my children in the beginning, and is now thriving active and healthy and follows us around the house..
Blaze ? Male ? 9 months ? Healthy young boy.
Bacon ? Male ? Exactly 1 Year this Month ? Healthy young boy.
Bon Bon ? 2 Yrs? ? Healthy, very active came from a malnourished situation.
Butterscotch ? 4+Yrs? ? Afraid he might have insulinoma unfortunately I had a family emergency come up just before he came to me and don?t have the funds to find out, but hoping this will help him until I can get him checked out.
Both Bon Bon and Butterscotch came from the same home and were fed cheap cat food all their lives
Biscuit ? 1-2 Yrs? ? FAT and Healthy ? came from a situation where he was kept in the cage and given plenty of food. Not much interaction given to him, he?s learning to be more playful with me and the other ferrets.
Thyme ? 1-2 Yrs? ? Healthy Girl.

2. What are your ferrets currently eating? Include their main diet, plus any treats or supplements (such as duk soup).

Mix of Zupreem and Advanced Ultimate 8 in 1
Duk Soup Powder Mix I get from a Shelter ? Using Ground Innove Evo ? Nupro ? Carnivore Care and/or Uncle Jims Mix, Ferret Aide, Ferret Probiotics, and a secret Ferret Magic. I started this a month ago and it?s helped out a lot with Butterscotch.
Bandit Treats ? 1-2 each day in the morning when we wake up.
Soft Bites Advance Ultimate 8-1 ? Not yet Regular with this yet because I accidently ordered this last time I ordered the food from Ferret.com, was going to start using it when the bandit treats ran out.

3. What kind of diet do you want to switch to?

Raw/Whole Prey. Because I work, I figured Raw would be great in the morning and when I get home from work give them their prey. I am going to start with frozen pre-killed, but leaning towards live, that?s another reason I want to do this at night ?cause I'll have more time for it.

4. Why do you want to switch to this more natural diet?

I want my ferrets to be healthy and to give them what is natural for them is better than the kibble, and frankly I can?t make heads or tails of those ingredient list on the bags. I?m looking to supplement my cats with raw too.

5. Where/what/who got you interested in natural diets?

I had been curious about it, but unsure what to do, and I am on a Florida meet up group board and we have a couple of members that have joined that are raw feeders and one gave us the link to this sight. I?ve been lurking for a couple of months, now I?m ready to start.

6. Please list the current weight for your ferret(s). Do they appear overweight? Underweight? How is there muscle tone?

All the weights are approx cause my scale is for humans not ferrets.
Bandit ? 2 lbs and appears to have a great weight ? she looks to be in great shape.
Briar ? 2 ? lbs and appears to be a good weight, his muscle tone on his hind quarters seems a little skinny
Blaze ? 3 ? lbs ? FAT Muscle tone, he seems to be strong, but he does breath hard and lays down a lot while playing, I think he can loose some weight.
Bacon ? 3 lbs ? He is in great shape it seems, little jiggly in the tummy, but he was much bigger when I got him.
Bon Bon ? 1 ? lbs soaking wet ? she is in pretty good shape, bit of a flabby tummy, I think that?s where she is carrying most of her weight
Butterscotch ? 2 lbs ? Skinny ? He seems to have good strength, but his hindquarters are very skinny.
Biscuit ? 4 lbs ? The biggest of the group, more fat than muscle tone, He has a hard time holding his own with all the ferrets when the wrestling pile starts.
Thyme ? 1 lbs soaking wet ? She is SMALL, but has great tone, strong healthy little girl.

7. What is the condition of your ferret's teeth/gums? (can you get a picture?)

I have a crappy camera and every close up tooth pic was blurry and made them all look aweful and I gave up.
Bandit ? Is young, her teeth look great no issues.
Briar ? He has some tarter build up, but otherwise they look Healthy, no black cavity looking spots.
Blaze ? Is young like Bandit and doesn?t really have any issues.
Bacon ? Has some tarter buildup and looks like his first 8 months of life in the pet store eating wet Marshalls didn?t do them any good.
Bon Bon ? Teeth are surprisingly nice, they look better than bacon?s and she is suppose to be a year older than him
Butterscotch ? Tarter build up, one of his back molars is turning black and two of his front teeth next to a canine is turning black also. His gums are also a little red around the bad teeth.
Biscuit ? A little bit of tarter build-up, his back molars are a bit dark, and he is missing two of his front bottom teath.
Thyme ? Some tartar buildup and otherwise her teeth look really nice.

8. Describe the texture/color of your ferrets coat.

Bandit ? Chocolate Sable Mitt ? Soft Silky Thick Coat ? Medium length - Great condition.
Briar ? Chocolate Sable ? Soft Thick Coat ? Good Condition
Blaze ? Roan ? ? Coarse Thick Coat ? He lays down when he pees, so he is going bald on his tummy from the urine ? I really want him to take some of the fat off. Bacon had this same problem and it stopped after he lost his weight.
Bacon ? Panda? ? Coarse when I got him, but its softening ? seems to be good.
Bon Bon ? Black Sable ? Coarse/Brittle/Thin ? She has lost hair around her tail but has been filling out since I?ve gotten her two months ago. Her fur has gotten so much better since she has been off the whiskas.
Butterscotch ? Light Cinnamon? ? His fur a bit coarse and very dull.
Biscuit ? Light Chocolate Sable ? Short semisoft and Coarse fur.
Thyme ? Black Sable ? Soft thick coat. Great Condition

All the ferrets but Butterscotch have a shiny coat.

9. How often does your ferret go to the bathroom?

With 8 theres a lot of poo, I couldn?t tell you how much each individual goes though

10. Does your ferret's feces and/or urine smell?

Yes their poo stinks, but we don?t have a strong urine smell in the house, so no stinky pee?

11. Smell your ferret. How strong is their odor?

They all have a musky odor and their strength with each changes day to day, and I like the way they smell.

12. On a scale of 1-10, 1 being completely lethargic and 10 being "through the roof!" what is your ferret's energy level?

Bandit ? 7-8
Briar - 6-7
Blaze ? 6-7
Bacon ? 9
Bon Bon ? 10
Butterscotch ? 2
Biscuit ? 4-5
Thyme ? 6-7

13. How excited is your ferret about meal time (when fed kibble)?

Not excited, it?s left in their cage 24/7. They do love first thing in the morning when they are getting their Bandit treat. They will follow me around until they get them. It?s kinda amusing having 8 ferrets chasing you with treat-treat-treat looks in their eyes ? I would love to see it happen with the raw diet.

14. Have you attempted to switch from kibble to a natural diet in the past? If so, what methods have you tried. Be specific.

I have offered Raw, but nothing other than to here try this. Thyme is the only one that would take it, everyone else snubbed it.

15. What other information about your ferret(s) would you like to share?



16. If you can, please post a clear photograph of EACH of your ferrets directly below:

Already posted pics in the photo's section. Here's the link.

holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=ferretpic&action=display&thread=3299

17.

a.) Do you understand that by starting this thread you commit to posting updates on the progress of your ferret(s) diet switch atleast every other day?**

Yes ? Agreed.

b.) Do you understand that if you will be away from your computer for an extended period of time you will need to exchange phone numbers (or email addresses if you don't feel comfortable exchanging numbers)via private message with your assigned mentor, so that we can monitor your progress and ensure your ferret's saftey during the switch?

Yes ? Agreed

c.) Do you understand that any threads that have not been updated in for more then a week (with no explaination as to why you are absent) will result in the deletion of the thread?***

Yes ? Agreed

[saphire2815]

Ok, last night when I started filling out the questionnaire I decided I would go ahead and make soup, based on the recipe I found in Bindiferrets thread.

I used

1 lb ground chicken
1 whole egg
1 chicken liver
1 tsp olive oil
1 tsp ferretone
2 c water
1/4 cup of the duk soup mix
Blend and introduced to my ferrets

I started with Butterscotch 'cause I know I need to get him off the carbs. He would only lick it off my fingers at a little bit then went back to his cubby to sleep.

The rest of the ferrets I was able to get to eat some only by licking off my fingers, then my Cats Colby and Rachel had some, I think they were more excited about it then the ferrets. If it wasn't for my cat cleo I think I might switch my whole business over, but she has mental problems. She was the runt of the litter and had been starving for several days when I finally got her. I saved her life, but I think it caused her problems.

Ok, back to the ferrets, so last night I keep my ferrets 4 to a cage, so I only put 1/2 c. kibble in both their cages last night, so this morning they would be hungry and I gave them all my mix again this morning. Briar only wanted his bandit treat and refused, but Bon Bon was enthusiastic and Butterscotch was happy to eat, and everyone else ate some too. And I think Butterscotch is already benefitting, he just woke up, I gave him some more and he just spent a couple of minutes playing the the dirt dig box for the first time! I can't wait to see his progress. For the next few weeks so you all know is just to supplement, get them all use to liking raw, and in two weeks really get down to business. I have lots of kibble to get through.

Because I work, I would like to know what the best plan of action? I know there needs to be a wait between kibble and raw. I have two idea's.

Every other day, raw to kibble.

Or let them have kibble overnight 9pm - 8:30 Am, remove kibble, when I leave for work, and then give raw when I get home around 6:30-7pm?

I think the second would be the easiest for me. I'm really good with daily routine's and changing my routine day to day can mess me up.

[Heather]

Hi and welcome to the mentoring program
Looks like you're well on your way....looking good . Fantastic job. You have a ferret with suspected insulinoma you won't be able to take the kibble away...
With my healthy ferts, I would leave kibble through the night and leave them raw during the day. Your Butterscotch is going to have to have food available to him all the time. He will not ride the rollercoaster of sugar highs and lows that he would if fed entirely on kibble but depending on how advanced the di-sease, you may never be able to put the kibble entirely away at least for him. I've had a couple of students who were able to get rid of the kibble, in the primary stages but I have some ferts who are in later stages and they cannot go without the kibbles or at least food available 24/7.
You're off to a great start, so feel free to prowl the site, read some of the threads, check out what worked and didn't, what you're comfortable with...and while you're doing that I will see about getting you a mentor . Please, feel free to post here, any questions that you may have either myself or one of the mentors will pop in and answer your questions until a mentor is found for you. Good luck and we will be talking
ciao

[saphire2815]

This morning I pulled the fuzzy's out of their cage, and put butterscotch down with his bowl of soup and he immediately started lapping it up. My poor cat Colby sat next to him watching a salivating the whole time. I think he's going to be converted without me even trying

Because they all had kibble through the night I didn't think they all would be too hungry, so as soon as butterscotch was done, I put the bowl on the floor, just to see who would eat it. Bon Bon started going at it, Blaze walked up, sniffed the bowl, picked it up and took it away so he wouldn't have to share! So I went and warmed up a little more for everyone else. Everyone else will eat, but not a lot and will only lick it off my fingers. Am I spoiling them or what, that stuff is gross all over my fingers. Once the ferrets were done Colby the cat swooped in and cleaned the bowl.

I have been watching Butterscotch closely, he is really liking the raw, after he ate, he went to the bathroom, then ran around the house and was wrestling with Blaze. I was amazed and in the last two hours that the ferrets have been out, he's come out to play for short periods 2 times! Normally once he goes to sleep we don't see him again until we put them in the cage. Every time he comes out I give him a serving and he eats. I think he is going to be the easiest to change over, but Bon Bon and Blaze are a close second.

Thinking out loud, because I think Butterscotch has insulinoma and I have to keep him with kibble, is a two story ferret nation cage big enough to house 7 ferrets during the day while withholding kibble? Or should I house him with the two who are taking easiest to the raw.

[Heather]

You're off to a good start and you're already seeing results. Those results that you're seeing in Butterscotch are the same as I saw when I switched Babuska. When I got her at 9 yrs old, her owner appologized stating that she felt bad about dumping a ferret that was dying. All that Babushka would do is sleep. It was true that was all she was doing. Once on raw, she trundles around and pops in and out of sleepy spots. She's a grouchy little thing but she's enjoying life. She's 11 and is still going so what raw does for the marginal ferrets (the ones that are not healthy but not really sick either) is amazing.
Finger feeding don't I know it. Try a spoon and see if they will go for that. I usually try to get them eating out of a spoon as soon as they take it willingly from my fingertips. I can better gauge who's eating what amount that way.
As far as housing, I would be tempted to house Butterscotch with the 2 ferrets that eat the best...I think seven in one space would be a bit crowded They might get grouchy. Leave them with raw food, even Butterscotch's bunch. That way they will eat it until it's gone and then they will switch over to the kibbles. Most of my guys won't even eat kibbles now. I was babysitting a couple of guys and their owner didn't want them to eat raw (they did anyway because their playmates were, so monkey see monkey do). My guys played in the kibbles but they didn't really eat it. Odin and Loki do because they're my junkmonkeys and both had eaten kibbles for a long time. Loki actually had a diet of Count Chocula's before I got him , so you can't leave chocolate around. Napoleon, has never had kibbles so it's fun to dig in but eat it...not likely
So you've switched the cat too. Was that your intention? You did an awesome job and it's by far better for Colby than any kibbles or moist that you can feed. I will check in later to see how it's going and if you have any questions.
ciao

[saphire2815]

Colby is doing the switch all on his own. It wasn't my intention. So I stopped by a meat market and found they have all the items I would need except for chicken heart, they had necks, legs, gizzards, liver, goat, rabbit, cornish game hens, ox tail, everything was frozen though. Arg! There is one close to my work I am going to check out and see what they have there. I'm hesitant to buy anything. I'm not sure if they are ready for anything more than soupy because they just lick around the cooked chuncks that occur when I warm it up from the fridge. Bon Bon is the only one that grabs those pieces and eats them. Any suggestions on what would be a good start to buy, I have some chicken breast and more liver I can make another soup when this batch runs out.

Thanks all.

[Heather]

Chicken is usually a favourite for starting...it's mild flavoured and usually well received. I would continue just feeding the soupy for a little bit. Add a few raw chuncks in it to make it interesting for those fellows that are really into this. I envy you your options, there is a good variety and some really good stuff for your little ones. Rabbit is another big favourite, but usually a little lower in nutritional value. I'm guessing your soupy is cooked?? You could try putting raw chunks in there and start them moving towards a raw soupy instead.
Good for Colby, got to love the ones with initiative I will check in on you this evening when I get back from work
ciao

[saphire2815]

My soupy is raw/frozen, so during the quick defrost in the microwave bits get cooked, I don't think I needed to freeze any of this batch but wasn't sure how well received it was going to be. Bon Bon acts like the cooked pieces are treats, she gets one and runs off to eat it Butterscotch just at all of an entire ice cube size serving less the little bits of cooked pieces and everyone else ate about 1/2 a cube each. I'll be making another batch of soupy again tonight.

[Heather]

That's great. It's going over really well. I'm impressed Be careful when you defrost, once you start adding bone and egg shell (this should be very soon, 1/2 tsp of powdered egg shell for every cup of raw food, this isn't necessary if you have ground bone) you won't be able to semi cook the food as it will cook the bone. This will change the bones structure and make it brittle and dangerous for your furbabies to eat. What you will have to do is thaw your soupy the day before or night before. If your furbabies prefer it at room temp then you leave it out for a bit. Microwaving becomes dangerous for your furbabies after bone has been added. Just a word of warning . I will talk at you again tomorrow.
ciao

[saphire2815]

I didn't know the nuker was bad well it never spent more than 15 seconds at a time and I was really only warming it up to the not cold point. Also as I said I didn't know how successful it was going to be so I froze half thinking I wasn't going to need it in a day! I'll remember that, so I should have the meals planned a couple days in advance to make sure they are defrosted? Would warming it up in hot water work? Bring it to a boil, place the soupy in a zip loc and emerse for a second or two and then pull out. We will still get cooked bits, but it won't be supercold either.

Well I made another soup last night with chicken breast instead of ground chicken. The fuzzy's don't like it as well, not even Colby It came out a lot thicker and has more chunks in where the ground came out consistent and smooth. Going to work today and I don't feel comfortable yet withholding the kibble from any of them, but I did pull some back so they don't have enough for the entire day.

I'll let y'all know how things go when I get home tonight.

[Heather]

You've made an observation that a lot of people make. Texture is a big deal with these guys. I find that taking things in little bites seems to go over well, whereas big changes in new things seem to get them to dig in their heels and turn up their noses How big are the chunks? For most of them, no bigger than the tip of your fingernail. You can try adding more liquid to your mix to create more gravy but...you will probably find that they will just drink the liquid What you can do is add some ground to that mix, making the chunks less frequent and maybe they will accept that better. No, I wouldn't withold kibble either. I'm not a big one for starving my fuzzies to get them to eat. I'm a softy That's why my guys carry a little extra weight I will check in with you tonight and see how things are going.
ciao

[saphire2815]

Ok, I got home, and my estimate of kibble was off, I was hoping they would have finished it a couple hours before I got home, so they would be hungry when I got home. They had kibble left. I took the kibble away and waited a couple of hours before I tried this evening. I added just a little bit of water to my soup so it wouldn't be so thick. Most of the chunks are little pieces, there is just lots of them.

Bon Bon is really taking to it, she even grabs up the chunks and runs off to eat them like she just found the best treat ever! Even when another ferret comes up to see what she has, she runs off keep it from them. She doesn't want to share Then she comes back for more, I think she is going to be the easiest.

Butterscotch likes it a little more soupy but didn't seem as hungry tonight, but he keeps popping out, taking a few licks and then runs around for a few minutes, I even got him to war dance me, I haven't had very many of those from him since I got him a few months ago, it makes me happy.

Biscuit went searching for food in the cage, when he couldn't find anything I was able to coax him to me and without even trying he lapped up about a spoonful without me even having to dab any on his nose.....but he makes this face while eating that looks like gross gross gross trying to keep his nose from touching it. LOL

Blaze will eat a little bit here and there, but I have to dab his nose to even get him to start.

Thyme she eats willingly, just not a lot, but she is the smallest of the bunch and I think she's a light eater.

Bacon once I got him to start he even took in some chunks, but I couldn't get him to eat more than a 1/2 spoonful.

Briar and Bandit - Are resistant, I can get them to lick it off my fingers, I have to scruff them first just so I can dab the first lick or two. Bandit will start getting into it, she will eat about a spoonful and Briar the second I let go of his scruff he's outta there! Then he lays in the middle of the floor in the living room begging for "real" food! Looking at me with his big ol' eyes Out of all my ferrets Briar was the only one that was in a starvation situation before I got him and happily ate whatever I gave him when I got him, but now he's become a picky eater!

For the Cats, I left this morning's leftover's for them, and I'm not sure who did it, but they helped themselves to most of it. And tonight all three helped themselves to the bowl. Colby of course had the most, Rachel and Cleo just had a few licks and walked away. But the less Kibble I have to buy in the long run for both species the better.

[sherrylynne]

Hello there! I'm Sherrylynne, and I'll be your mentor for their switch
First, a little about me. I'm 51, and have my own housecleaning business here in Calgary Alberta. I have 4 cats, ranging in age from 4yrs, to 15(only one would eat raw, unfortunately :. I also have 8 ferrets. Boris and Vincent came first, two brothers, a sable and albino. Then Sinnead. I got her when she was 2. She's now 3, and adrenal. She's on lupron, and having her surgery in August.
After that came my first deaf ferret, Lucrezia. A marked DEW. Then two foster ferrets, whom we fell in love with and adopted- Zeus and Athena, both two years old.
After that, a little abused ferret we called Willow. She was the worst fear biter I've had, although now she's becoming a sweetie . Lastly, Emily. 1 month younger than Willow, and those two have bonded strongly. She's the only one Willow wasn't terrified of.
While transitioning the first four, Boris was my hold out. EVERYTHING I gave him was poison, in his mind . Worst little drama queen I've seen yet . Twisting to get away, gagging, retching- he did all of it! Then one day- he ate it! Every single piece on the plate ! Those four haven't looked back. Although Boris would still be a kibble head if I let him.
The next two for transitioning were the fosters. Until we adopted them, I could only supplement with raw. So in order not to cause unnecessary tummy upsets(mixing kibble and raw too closely can cause some problems- more about that later), I'd give them raw one day, and kibble on a different day. So, by the time we adopted, they had no problem with 100% raw diet.
With Willow, I brought her home, and she flatly refused to eat the totally ferret kibble, so I went back to the pet store and got her a small bag of the crap they were feeding them there, and brought it home. I tried to give her some, but she just upset the dish. So- I tried her with some chicken breast. She ate it up! Hasn't had kibble since . Emily came to us as a raw fed ferret, so no issues there.
That's me and mine in a nutshell

The reason I started looking a raw feeding was something my vet said to me. I was, at the time, giving them small pieces of fruit for treats. She told me that was VERY bad for them, and in fact, some studies have started to link early feeding of sugars with insulinoma later in life. So- I started thinking. Kibbles are full of carbs. It's all those grains/veg/fruits in them. Those are converted to sugars by the body. To me then, sugar= potential insulinoma.
So, I started checking out various diets. I had no idea what an obligate carnivore was at the time. I found out! Not much wonder there was soooo much poop in the box! I may as well have been tossing my money in there. They can't process anything that's not meat based! So I feed meat
Their fur is softer, their energy levels are amazing- no mad rushes then crashing. Even my three year old's teeth are amazing. No plaque whatsoever Healing is faster, and if they do get ill, they have more reserves to rely on than when they were just kibble fed!
And there is a LOT LESS POOP!!!! Yay!
I'm really looking forward to helping your crew get onto a much healthier diet, including Butterscotch!
One thing you could consider for him instead of having kibbles available 24/7 is freeze dried raw. Archetypal 1 Ferret by Wysong's is a good one.

[saphire2815]

Great to meet you Sherrylynne, I look forward to continuing this journey with you. I'll definitely look into the wysong, but for now I have ALOT of kibble to get through, I had just stocked up, and I try to buy at least a months supply at a time, which now is going to take more time 'cause I am supplementing with soup and I can already see they are eating less. I have not seen the Wysong at any of the pet food stores (Petco, Pet Supermarket and Pet Land) around here. Can I find it at a natural food store?

This morning I really could only get Bon Bon to eat anything raw. Everyone else including butterscotch really didn't want anything to do with it, and as soon as I put them in the cage to leave for work they all converged on the kibble. The great news, is I know I am getting something into them, they ALL seem to have more energy and I got another war dance out of butterscotch this morning! And he is really running around more and actually trying to steal the remote control again, he only did that his first week with me, then proceeded to sleep the rest of his time here. I just now have to convince him it's the raw food making him feel this way and not the kibble, 'cause he seemed to only want the kibble this morning.

Well hopefully I will have hungry ferrets when I get home from work, I put less in than I did yesterday, for the hardheaded group, so they run out. I'll let you know again tonight. I have to get back to work, lunch break is over.

[sherrylynne]

It may take a while longer, since Butterscotch is insulinomic, but we'll get them all there! I pick my Wysong's up from Casey's Hidden Pantry, an online store. She's a member here- jojodancer. She ships it out the same day she gets the order. Here's her link: www.caseyshiddenpantry.com/