Newton,Norman,Cody,Kenora, Barack, LuxoJr's Switch

[lnsybean44]

The boys thankfully arent pooping, they just kinda sit there and occasionally will confront her. I have been putting everyone in a plyapen with Kenora on her harness so I can stop her when she starts attacking. It is working fairly well compared to the other things I have tried. I will keep the "hamster" ball in mind for when I move them from the playpen to the actual ferret room where i will have a little less control.

[mustelidmusk]

The harness is a great idea. It does't sound like you have a flaming disaster on your hands by any means. It will probably just take Kenora a little time to settle down with the boys.

Those litlle girls can be tough little cookies. My smallest girl was a real handful as a kit - she just felt the need to dominate th universe - even people . I was getting a little paranoid that I would never get her under control. One day her persistent nipping annoyed me so much that I turned around and nipped her right on her little ear - not very hard - but she squeaked anyway!!! I think I surprised the heck out of her I felt so bad after doing that, but she was a perfect little girl after that aorund me. She still like to"stealth nip" my husband every once in a while . But she's now the most cuddly little ferret on the planet - the sweetst of all of my kids .

That giant hamster ball was great because it wasn't a punishment - it was a MAJOR distraction tha switched all the ferrets into a completely different mindset where all 4 were then interacting on a different level - exploration!!! All 4 were having a new learning experince together. The holding of one ferret while the others played was good as well because they could swap turns being held. This would distract from the "wars" in a positive way. I think that the focus on new experiences for them helped them learn to "work" togther side by side. Not really sure if that was what was really happening, but it did make things easier to deal with.

I hope Kenorea settles down quickly for you!
-jennifer

[lnsybean44]

Oh yeah, kenora tried to scruff me once, she got my neck and I turned around and bit her leg. Since then she hasnt tried it again. She does still lick which makes me nervous but with me she is good. So far with the harness she is doing alot better. She can be in the same space as them, even within six inches. But Cody is the one she has a problem with. He is our current dominant ferret and isnt taking kindly to her trying to take over that roll. the problem is that they are so evenly matched neither will back down. Im sure they will figure it out eventually. I have been putting them all together three times a day so hopefully they will settle down. If she settles in before July first, I will be bringing home my new boy. Otherwise I will be waiting on getting a new friend for her.

[mustelidmusk]

OK, so I'm not the only person who's had to chomp on their little girl to let her know I mean business . I always read these posts about how you should never do that - the only thing that works is patience and kindness. BUT - once I retaliated, my little girl has never chomped me again. There are times she'll start nipping lightly for attention an then bite harder if I ignore her after several nips. But then, I know it's coming, and she doesn't break the skin. My girl is nippy with strangers, and she's intolerant of any "new" ferts, although I suspect a male kit would be OK. Definitely - no adult ferts - especially females!!!

I recommend that you expose Kenora to a lot of different people when she's young if you want to show her. She'll do better in the ring if she's used to being held by other people - especially if they smell like other ferts . The judges use disinfectants between ferts, but I'm sure they still smell like "other ferts".

I know it's alarming when you have one of those radical little girls. They can be very challenging because they're so freaking SMART!!!! These are my first girls, and I would never be without a girl again - my girls are extremely attentive to me. The boys are more laid back whle the little girls have to know everything you're doing. It's too cute

Another thing you can do is teach her some tricks - it will occupy her attention. Sitting up is obviously easiest. Then you can teach her to jump over your arm, rollover, etc. Once she learns a trick, have other people make her perform the trick. This will reinforce the idea that she is suubordinate to people. (She won't be challenging everyone she meets.

It' actually good that Kenora has a "worthy opponent". This will save the others from being over-dominated on a constant basis. Most often things do settle down - but it can take quite a bit of time.

Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention on variety....the more variety, the less likely your kids will develop food allergies.
IF you can find the stella & chewies (either frozen or dried), they now have a "Duck,Duck, Goose" diet, which provides poultry without overdoing the chicken. Chicken has been the primary ingredient n most pet foods for so long that sensitivity to chicken is not uncommon.

-jennifer

[lnsybean44]

My queen bee actualy loves people, so long as they arent excited people. She gets nervous when people are too hyper/excited around her, esp if she doesnt know them. I do love how she follows me around and as soon as I call her she will come running, no matter what she may be exploring.

Hmm I will have to ask about the duck duck goose. I would like to get them a little bit more variety. The next order will definitely include more types of meat. I completely forgot when I made my first order that variety still applies even when I am feeding freeze dried. Plus I wouldnt want to eat the same thing every day so why would they. I was disappointed that AFS doesnt have more varieties since the kids seem to like those and they fill them up better. I will be sure to add more stella and chewy's into the next order for more variety. They currently eat the lamb but the more the merrier

[mustelidmusk]

I know, it's hard to break that mindset promoted by all the old-school pet food manufacturers. They want you to buy one product only. The reality is, there is no single perfect food.

I was pleased to find the Duck, Duck Goose....I think it's relatively new since I've never seen it before. The place I bought mine locally had only the frozen, but they may have simply sold out of the freeze-dried stuff. The AFS is good - it's denser than the other freeze-drieds, so it helps wipe down the teeth really well.

As far as supplements and treats go, here is what I do....
(I always try to get natural source supplements rather than "pills" with synthetic vitamins.)

Taurine - we do not know what whether or not ferrets actually need taurine. There is an assumption that ferrets need it because cats need it, and cats that get insufficient taurine have heart issues similar what is seen in ferrets. They also eat similar prey (mice, birds, etc.) Some people feel that ferts do NOT need taurine because, unlike cats, when a ferret gets the same heart issues as a cat, adding taurine to the diet will not help a ferrets condition. With a cat, some heart conditions improve and/or are corrected with the addition of taurine to the diet. Since taurine oes not accumulate in the system, it's very difficult to give too much taurine. So, I add 1 500mg capsule of taurine per day across 4 fets - the caps contain powder, and they can be easily opened . Does the help my ferts ? I have NO clue - they're healthy - so t's not hurting.

I taurine to the balanced diets beccause taurine deteriorates in frozen meats. Meats that go nto freeze-dried product have most likely been frozen. for HOW long??? who knows? I get the capsules from Wholefoods or a vitamin place. It can be tricky to find, but it's not expensive.

Hearts and dark meats (chicken thigh, lamb, etc )contain more taurine. some fish has taurine too. The capsules are not natural source, but, they better than possible heart disease. Do I know what I'm doing here? No - but nobody else does either....my pracice is based upon what little we do know coupled with emprical evidence - my own experience and that of others

More supplement info to come.

Since I see no questions/concerns about getting the fuzzie to eat, i assume all is going very well for now.

Have fun!
jennifer

[lnsybean44]

Yup, things are going well over here. Though I am wondering if you have ever tried the dehydrated chicked as a treat. My friend has a dehydrator and he said he will dehydrate any meat... within normal limits (not mice) for my fuzzies.

[mustelidmusk]

I feed dehydrated treats, and my brats love it. Here's a thread about dehydrators. (It's in the "Raw section" i a thread I started called something llike healthy, cheap treats.

holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=raw&action=display&thread=2930

The main thing with teats is that you need to keep them as treats - yes, they are healthy, but if you feed too many, they become a meal. This means we need to be aware of balance.

You can mix treats: meat, liver and bone (velevet antlers and some egg shell powder for bone).....I "casually" try to follw the RMB weekly schedule with treas: 4 days of 50%meat & 50% bone, 2 days of meat only, 1 day of organ (liver) treats.

Dehydrators can use some heat - mine does....there will be some nutrient/enzyme loss, but it won't be any worry enough treats unless you start doing freeze-dried as meals on a regular basis.

I also use some more supplements (like the antlers) that I need to tell you about. This week is hectic for me, and I will be amping starting tomorrow and won't be online until Monady.

We'll go through all this stuff so you can understand all the stuff I do, why I do it, and what the results have been so far (they're 4 and 3 - very healthy).
I'll try to get another post in before I leave.

-jennifer

[mustelidmusk]

OK, so we talked about taurine.
Another supplement I use is fish oil/salmon oil, or flax oil.

The daily use of the oils has several benefits:
* It provides the essentail fatty acids. EFA's
* The fish oils have anti-inflammatory properties
* it works well as a replacement for hairball remedies - if you give ferret a little oil daily, the don't seem to get hairballs (unless they already have one floating in the gut somewhere) Even a friend of mine who feeds kibble has never had hairballs with her ferts, and she has had them for over 20 years. She gives them oil daily.

I've found that the salmon oil seems to produce the best coat. I rotate between salmon oil (go through a large bottle), flax seed oil (small bottle), and (sardine oil)

Why do I rotate?
It keeps the palate flexible and willing to taste new things
It provides a measure of protection against developing allergies
It I'm sure each has slightly different strengths/weaknesses (variety, again)

Here are the things you need to be aware of....
* feeding too much oil may lead to toxicity of oil-soluble vitamains (such as vitamin A, etc. ) I'm not sure what that risk may be because some theorize that it's difficult to "O.D." on natural-source supplements.
* oils should be strored in the refrigerator, and they can become rancid if they get too old.
* Oils will result in a looser stool, and too much can give ferrets the "squirts"
* DO NOT use the cod liver oil since it does NOT have a good balance of EFA's for ferts.

Dosing:
Each of my ferrets gets about a dime-sized serving of oil daily. ("Dime -sized" serving means that you put enough oil on aplate so so thet the REFRIGERATED oil forms a small, dime-sized potion of oil.

You may need to introduce the oils slowly ( a drop or two from the finger (put it on their noses so they lick it off) for digestibility and/or acceptance of the oils, although many ferts love all oils by default.

My next post may not be til after the holiday - and it will be more exciting than this one since I think I already mentioned most of this salmon oil stuff before. But it's a great supplement.

Have fun and have a very safe holiday weekend!!!
-jennifer

[lnsybean44]

I have a quick question... well kinda quick. I was reading in another post that people who feed raw usually give two to three adult mice per meal. When I feed Kenora her mice for dinner she barely finishes one. But she doesnt seem hungry after since when I put her freeze dried back in the cage she will ignore it. Is this because it is summer and she isnt eating as much or is it just natural ferret variation?

[lnsybean44]

I have had some trouble finding taurine, where should I be looking? I went to our local pharmacy and they didnt carry it. Would I have better luck at a health foods store or should I try another pharmacy?

[Heather]

Just popping in as your mentor hasn't been available for a couple of days. If she's not hungry...she's not hungry. Each ferret will consume what she needs. I find that my girls eat less (for the most part) than my boys. Attila (RIP) thought nothing of sitting down and chowing through 3 whole mice, Lady "B" will eat 2, Loki will eat 2 maybe, Napoleon (despite his size) will eat 1 and maybe a half, usually the head. Odin will eat 3 despite the fact that he's smaller than Napoleon. Natasha, will eat 1 and a half. My guys are entirely raw fed so they don't get freeze dried or any other supplements. As you can see they're all over the place as far as amounts that they eat. There will be days where all they will eat is heads (so very little) while other days they're up and around raiding each other's stashes and driving me crazy trying to keep them fed
As far a supplemental taurine, try your health food store. My pharmacy carries it in the herb and supplement section but it's has a large alternative health section. I can definitely get it at my bulk food store and any health and herb supplier.
I hope that helped
ciao

[mustelidmusk]

Hi!!!

Your girl has access to the freeze-dried food, so I'm sure she's munching between meals. A lot of people who feed raw provide ony two meals per day with no snacks between meals. If you'd like to see Kenora fish her mice, cut back on the mount of Freeze-dried food you're providing such that all the freeze-dried is gone before you feed the mouse meal. As long as your ferrets are maintaining decent weight and are not losing, they're getting everything they need. Bob Church stated that American's tend to keep their ferrets overweight based upon what he observed on his trip to New Zealand. For shows, the judges will hold the ferrets under the forearms/chst allowing their back 2/3's to hang freely. They'll then stroke the ferrets's sides to look for a "love handles" that bulge out from the ferrets' sides just above the hip region. good thing nobody's tried that with me

As for the taurine...I get mine at WHole Foods - you guys might not have these stores where you lve - they're health food stores that have organic stuff, high quality meats and fish, goat's milk, etc. I think you'lll have better luck in a store that has all he supplements, herbal remedies, etc. Taurine is not particularly easy to find. You may be able to find it in a "yuppie" pet food store that has raw diet and high-end kibble, supplements, etc. This is a good source for the fish oils (salmon, sardine, etc. ) as well. Look in the cat ection - better yet, just ask!!!
You can also order this on the web....perhaps from a natural pet store where you might be ordering something else as well.

One more thing about the taurine ...... L. Taurine is the same thing as taurine. I get that question a lot - in fact, I wondered about that myself when I first started learning about it!!!

-jennifer

[mustelidmusk]

Next supplement: trace minerals

A lot of whether or not you feed trace mineral will depend upon how you feel about the quality of the ffods we eat today. Some believe that our soils have been depleted of trace minerals, and this lack of trace mierals is then propgated throughout the food chain.

As with any nutritional source, many beleive that natural sources are superior to synthetic and or "added nutrients". the theory is that the natural, most absorbable forms of nutritionare provided in nature since many nutrients are best absorbed in combination. (as with calcium and vitamin D).

The following can be used as trace mineral supplements:

Velvet antler - I "discovered" these antler treats at a dog show in Denver . Velevet antlers are the soft, fuzzy antlers that that have not yet hardened into dense "bone". I know of only one source that provides thin antler slices for treats. You can buy powder, but the slices help to clean the teeth! The slices are pourous and readily absorb oils and other flavors (fish oil, etc.). Thy're also easy to clip into tiny bits to add into freeze-dried and/or soups/ground diets.

The cool part about the antlers is that they are harvested without harm to the elk, which shed their antlers yearly anyway. they remove the antlers when in the velvet stage to protet against injury when the animals fight.

velvet antler has been used in ancient chinese medicine, so it's not new. There is som econtroversy over the use of antler since venison and elk potentially can suffer from wasting diease. My take on thi is that that there's as much chance of getting mad cow from out beef supply as from the venison/elk sources. The elk/venison ranchers DEPEND upon these animals, o they're going to take as many precautions as the cattle ranchers. Also, the place that provides the antler slices is located in Penrose, Colorado. It's in the southerly part of the state where the wasting disease has not been found.

Here is the link to the place where I get my antler treats:
www.bonusvelvetantler.com/
You can read more about antlers at their site. I get the treats for small dogs. My brats get a quarter of an anter treat per week, so the treats last a while. (I was surprised to see a package of these antler treats in one of the raffles at the Buckeye Bash last year...I had "introduced" these treats to ferret owners on one of the other raw feedng forums. Apparently, the antlers are now in use by some other ferret owners as well.

I also feed some more trace mineral suplements to vary the sources. more on this later.

-jennifer

[lnsybean44]

I might be getting a second ferret and I am thinking about switching to franken prey since it seems I can feed them for cheaper that way. Feeding one freeze dried is affordable but if I get the second one I would like to switch.I will probably do a mixture of freezedried and frankenprey.

Where to I begin? What do I look for? How often should I feed? Right now I am doing two meals a day and they seem to be doing just fine with that. I know I can get chicken and beef at my grocery store. Kenora hasnt been so keen on her mice lately but the new boy will be. Where can I find the best deals?