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Post by lnsybean44 on Jul 10, 2009 20:21:21 GMT -5
I have access to goat (with the bone), quartered chickens (no organs, with bone), pork ribs, beef, ground beef (muscle only) and ground rabbit (muscle only, preferably for an occasional treat). In addition I have powdered taurine and powdered bone supplements, I can get other supplements from the store these are from if there is something you recommend to add. I am still trying to find somewhere to get heart and organs. I was told I can get chicken livers and beef heart at stop and shop but I havent had a chance to look yet. I think I am also going to get small sized rats for the boy (kenora wont touch them) since I know he will be eating alot since he is young.
If you havent guessed I am about 99% decided on getting him. He even has a name already. Well the majority of a name, im still working on his show name.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 11, 2009 12:09:16 GMT -5
Oh how CUTE!!!!! I'm betting Kenora will be fine with him - a young hob will be feisty enough for her to pick on  Remember that the bones of larger animals will be very hard and dense, so they should not be fed whole. About the largest bone I would feed would be smaller bones from smaller turkeys and not-huge rabbits. There are two types of bones: weight-bearing, and non-weight bearing. Weight bearing bones are the long bones that carry a lot of weight - for example, leg bones are really HARD - especially the long shafts. these bones get a lot of pressure put on the long shft from the top. many animals will eat only the softer ends from these bones leavt the hard shaft untouched. Non-weight bearing bones are softer and less likely to produce a sharp edge when broken. These bones are typicallt the dork-colored bone. This is easy to see with chickens - the ends of the larger bones, rib bones, back, and necks are darker. The white bone tissue is typically the long shaft of the legs, thigh, etc. The dark bone tissue is softer/more pourous/more nutritious....and it also has the most nutrients and cartilage, etc. WIng bones, and rib bones are longer but darker and not as hard as leg and thigh bones. the ribs are pretty dark (softer), but thery're kind of long as well. These smaller long bones are required for marrow, which has all kinds of nutrients/fats as well. The larger animal bots can be carcked open to expose the softer interior amd marrow. It's great if you can crack the open lentghwise another use for the longer boths is making broth...you can even bone bones until they becone o soft that you can smash them without much forth (smaller bones that have been boiled for a very long period of time can be smashed between your finger tips. The key here is to keep the bones covered with water. Any exposure yo DRY heat will make bones harder and splinter-prone!!! You can also boil bones with water to make stock for people food or ferret food. If you boil bones/cartilage long eough and reduce the liquid, you'll find that the liquid turns to gelatin when kept in the fridge. The gelatin is great for soups, treats, etc. I t contains minerals, glucosamine, collagen, etc. So you can make sock, pour it into ice cube trays and put the stock ice cubes in ferret or people foods. Store the ice cubes in zip-lock freezer bags. It's great that you found a source for most of the things you're looking for. Ithe organ meats can be a pain to find, but if you have any ethnic food stores nearby (asian, mexican, even old world european, etc.) you may find some organ/and/or variety meats.) Some people find that butchers are willing to sell the 'gross stuff" to pet owners for very cheap prices. A note about bone meal. Always buy high-quality, human-grade bone meal, especially if the source if from beef/US beef. Beef, accululates quite a bit of lead the bones, especially in the US. This is attributed to the burning of lead fuels which end up in our soils. egg shells, finely ground , can be used as a calcium source as well. Let's say you're feeding a turkey wing this week, and less bone is eaten than normal because the wing is a little on the big side. You can add some powdered egg shell and/or antler to in a soup help make up for less bone n the diet that week. -jennifer |
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Post by lnsybean44 on Jul 11, 2009 13:49:16 GMT -5
So boiling large bones to mush is okay so long as they stay completely under? They wont splinter that way? Would adding that be similar to them eating the bone?
If you account for 14 meals per week (two per day), if I read correctly 8 would have to be bone in, four with muscle meat and two with organs?
Would a suitable bone in food be whole chickens (the kind with the bag of organs inside), cornish hens, pork ribs, chicken wings, baby chicks, small adult rats or goat with the non weigh bearing bone in. What else could I use that they might eat the bones from?
For the muscle meat day I could do just about anything I can buy at a grocery store right? Would ground beef or turkey be acceptable? I can also get ground rabbit muscle meat as a special treat.
And as far as organs, what should I look for besides livers? How often should I give heart since I know that isnt considered an "organ day" food since it is muscle. Should it be given in a smal piece each day or as an inbetween meals treat a few times a week?
How often should I give them egg? How often should I sprinkle powdered egg shells on their food?
Besides that is there anything I am missing?
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 13, 2009 1:19:43 GMT -5
The goat bone, pork bones, lamb bones, beef bones, etc. will most likely be too large to feed unless they are boiled until they become much softer -or they are listed below. You may then need to break them lengthwise and into small pieces - or mash/grind them so the ferrets can deal with eating them. Boiling them loses some nutriets , of course. Bone from the following are typically fed.... Raw turkey necks (you might have to cut into little circles (at the vertabre) Raw pork necks Raw chicken wings Raw chicken legs Raw chicken necks (snack only) Raw chicken thighs Cornish game hen (I feed my two ferrets half a game hen. So you might feed your crew 1 hen. To make it easier to eat, cut it in half lengthwise, right down the back NEXT to the spine) Rabbit (legs, thighs, pretty much any part) Turkey tails (snack only unless its a really meaty tail) Duck, quail, or pheasent (legs, wings, thighs, etc) The middle segment of a turkey wing (the tip can be used as a "chew toy" its pure cartalidge. The end part can not be eaten by ferrets, the bone is too dense. They might strip the meat off it though. You can feed that part of the wing on "boneless meat day". I would leave the meat on the bone so they get the benefits of ripping and tearing the meat off the bone....even if they cant eat the bone) In general the exception to this rule is NECKS and TAILS (since these bones usually arent that big or dense). bone "supplements": The following can be used to help provide additional "bone" in the diet if a meal seems "light" on bone: Egg shell (finely ground) velvet antler boiled bone can be boiled until it can be cumbled and then ground/mashed/broken into manageable pieces. human grade bone meal. yes, if you break the week down into indivual meal with 2 meals per day, you will be feeding 14 meals per week as follows: 8 meals (half bone, half meat) 4 meats (meat only) 2 meals (organ meats) Eggs - ( yolk-only or whole) I would feed no more than 1-2 eggs per ferret per week (I don't even feed that much! Organ meats will be addressed tomorrow....-- gotta get some sleep so I can wake up tomorrow -jennifer |
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Post by lnsybean44 on Jul 13, 2009 14:05:46 GMT -5
Alright I will keep that all in mind when I go shopping this week. I actually discovered that a co-worker of my mother's also owns an ethnic foods market that sells live rabbits and chickens. He said he would slaughter and quarter them for me. I was planning on freezing these pieces for a week or two before feeding them to kill an potential parasites. I am also possibly getting chicken organs from him since he said he just throws them out, should these be frozen too?
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Post by lnsybean44 on Jul 13, 2009 20:36:40 GMT -5
Tonight was our first night of raw feeding. I bought a preliminary menu of pork vertebre (good amount of meat) , turkey neck (lots of meat), beef bone marrow, quartered chickens, ground turkey and cornish game hens.
I formed the ground turkey into portioned meatballs for muscle days. I cut the meat off the legs of the quartered chicken (saved the leg bones) and ran it through the food processor and made chicken meatballs. I cut the rib cage up into pieces which she loved. I am still looking for well priced beef and I wont have rabbit for another week or so but pork will be my third meat for the week.
The rib cage has some organs still attached and I bought liver to supplement but I still cant find heart.
My mother and I are investing in the meat grinder attachment for our stand mixer. When I grind my meat (I plan on making portioned meatballs of turkey, chicken, beef, maybe pork and rabbit) I would like to grind the bones as well. Will this create splinters or is it okay to do it this way. I dont mind running the meat through the grinder a few times but how will I know if the bone if crushed enough or not crushed enough?
They will also get necks and such to clean their teeth and for enrichment but I am trying make easily portioned meals that Kenora cant carry off and that will be easy for my mom to feed. Some of their meals will still be whole, such as the ribcage, but Alot will be meat balls. Unless there will be a problem with that in which case hopefully we can figure something out.
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Post by Heather on Jul 17, 2009 11:37:49 GMT -5
How did it go? I'm curious, did you get the meat grinder for your kitchen unit? My kitchen unit also has this as an option, so I'm intrigued as to how well it works. Don't worry about bone splinters in the raw ground meat. Your furbabies should be able to handle it, it's when it's cooked that you will run into problems. Some chunks they will just spit out, others they will swallow whole (so don't be alarmed) and then you will also find them chewing them too. The only negative thing I've encountered with feeding raw is that sometimes they get chunks of bone stuck between their teeth. This will cause them to gag and paw at their mouth. You will have to use your fingernail to pop the bone chunk out. As they become more proficient they will get better at popping those little bones out on their own  As long as you continue to feed whole pieces as well as ground you should reap the benefits of the teeth cleaning and the strengthening of the upper torso and neck that you get from feeding whole meats. So your idea of meat balls is entirely feasible. It's no different than feeding patties...just your convenient way of doing it Actually there is a mfg who does their raw up in meatballs for the cat foods...this allows for smaller portions and easier portion control I don't know if you will ever stop the perpetual stasher from stashing. I had a fellow, my Attila, who stashed ground mix...why I have no idea. He usually ate his stashes but like a squirrel he sometimes forgot where he stashed it and then momma had to clean up his smelly mess   Good luck, please keep us posted ciao |
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Post by lnsybean44 on Jul 17, 2009 14:44:49 GMT -5
Thank you for popping in, we actually didnt get the attachment because the company said that it cant handle bones (although im sure that is to cover their butts more than anything else im sure). But my grandfather has a heavy duty industrial type grinder that I will be getting. Its just a matter of getting it over to my house (we have some problems with my grandma). Hopefully I will be able to get it this week and I will let you know how it goes.
Kenora has been very good about not stashing her meat balls, she will stash anything with a bone in it though. So I am hoping that this will stop the raw meat from being found in fun places like under my heater and behind my dresser. When she gets whole pieces I will just have to keep and eye on her but this way i can give her food in the morning before work and not have to worry about what sort of mess I will find when I get home.
I do have another question. I was reading somewhere that when feeding franken prey, you should add a bit of pumpkin to essentially replace the fur, which would normally slow down digestion a bit and act as a "roto router", if I understood corectly. If so, how much should I add to my meat balls? I was going to hand mix it in to avoid it getting all chopped up and being useless.
My proportion mixtures were going to be the same as my feeding proportions. Four bone in meats: two muscle meat: 1 organs for the mixes that I am not using whole animals for, such as the beef and pork balls. For the chicken and turkey balls I was going to just get a whole chicken/turkey to grind, plus the organs that come with it and more if I need to supplement. (I dont plan on grinding my rabbits or mice, those will be used for the "whole foods" day for teeth and strength etc, as will necks.
So my question is how much pumpkin should I add? Would it be better to add the rabbit skin/fur, if I can get my hand on it, from the guy who I get my whole rabbits from (human quality live rabbit/chicken ehtnic store)? He said he would be willing to save me what ever pelts I need since he skins the rabbits before delivery. I am also getting my organs from him (chicken and rabbit)
Lastly, I got a really good deal on cut sections of cow long bones. They have awesome marrow and Kenora loves it. How often would it be okay for her to get a marrow section? There is about a teaspoon or more of marrow depending on the piece.
EDIT: I can indeed get the rabbit pelts if they are okay to add instead of the pumpkin. What do you think? what would be the best way to add it if I do? Just grind them with the meat?
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Post by Heather on Jul 18, 2009 4:52:42 GMT -5
Fantastic that you can get the pelts...I don't know how well they will grind though  . What I would do if you can get the pelt to grind is...how much weight is on the average rabbit....grind up the fur of 1 rabbit and add that to your mix. Urban Carnivore used to measure their animal protein mixes that way (you get everything in their commercial mix) To figure out pumpkin, I usually add 1/2 c to 3/4 c for 8 to 10 lbs of meat. That's what I've been working with anyway. You can also substitute squash when that is fresh and available....I bake it (not boil it as all the good goes into the water) I want them to get whatever nutrients that they can process made available to them. If it's raw they can't get any nutritional value out of it. They may not be able to make any use of it (other than to use it like the fur) but if there's a thread of hope of them getting any value I make it available. Got to go to work. I will check in with you later. ciao |
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Post by lnsybean44 on Jul 18, 2009 6:23:19 GMT -5
If I understand correctly they are fairly young rabbits. I am still waiting to hear back about weight and price, I just called yesterday. Hopefully I will hear something soon.
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Post by Heather on Jul 18, 2009 15:25:57 GMT -5
I still think it's absolutely awesome that you're going to be able to add rabbit pelt to this. I will be interested to see how this goes as it's not something that I've done before and I'm interested to see if it's indeed applicable
ciao
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Post by lnsybean44 on Jul 19, 2009 10:53:20 GMT -5
I will keep you posted. Hopefully I will be getting hte rabbit and skins within the next week or so and the grinder soon after. Apparently my grandmother wold my grandpa's meat grinder without telling anyone so it is currently MIA
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Post by lnsybean44 on Jul 19, 2009 20:34:01 GMT -5
No one could find the meat grinder so I am going to buy one. I was looking on ebay at the kitchenaid attachment and alot of the "used" ones that people were selling are cracked where the attachment goes into the stand mixer. For that reason I am going to put in a bid on a grinder that specifically mentions that it does bone. I emailed the seller with a few questions and if all goes well I will have my new grinder in time for my new little boy to show up.
Is mustelidmusk feeling alright? She has been MIA for a while and I just wanted to make sure everything was okay.
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Post by Heather on Jul 20, 2009 0:14:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure, I've noticed that she's been absent so I'm going to do some searching myself.
Good luck with the grinder let me know how it goes.
ciao
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Post by mustelidmusk on Jul 22, 2009 0:52:09 GMT -5
Hi, Yes, I've been MIA - again!!! It's work - AGAIN!!!  We're slammed at work trying to get another software release out the door. It's nuts - Iv'e been too pooped to even log in. It just got home at 11:30, and I've been working extreme hours again. I'm hoping I'll have some spare time to pot this weekend. In the meantime, please remember I haven't forgotten you  As far as grinders go, there re everal out there that work well on bone even if the'yre not guraranteed to handle bone. Sam Baere grinders are rated as bone-capable. ou will definitely want a unit that has "reverse" capability - I hear that without reverse, you spend more time unclogging the machine than using it. I did quie a bit odf looking into grinders, but it was so difficult to get all the measts/organs/etc.....I felt I'd never get around to getting my act together....epecially when workgets like it is right now. I think I may have poted some info on this site about grinders....do a search on this site for grinders and you'll probably be able to find some info. I'll post more later - I need to get some sleep. -jennifer |
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