Newton,Norman,Cody,Kenora, Barack, LuxoJr's Switch

[cristina]

I mean you could try and give her more if you want and see what she does (if she pigs out or not), personally I have always been an advocate of giving them as much as they want without piging out or getting sick, because I have noticed (with my guys) that they eat different amounts during different seasons and it fluctuates ....like right now they eat half of what they eat in the winter and such. But she seems to be an ideal weight and sounds to be on a good routine so, its all up to you though, since only you can truely see the effects and monitor their behaviors....but I mean if you feel comfortable with her weight and diet as of now then thats good to keep on your routine

[lnsybean44]

I offered her more at her meal time and she hid it so I think I will stick with the portions I am giving her and continue to keep an eye on her weight and body condition.

[mustelidmusk]

Hi!

I'm back from my trip - WOW!!!! I should go away more often sounds like things are going pretty well!!!

No wonder Kenora is such a beauty!!! Luther IS truly fabulous I think I might have seen Kenora last year at the Buckeye Bash....Kerry had one of her jills with kits there - sooooo CUTE. We were all hanging out in the Kerry's hotel room the babies were all happily nursing. I think the kits were about the right size to be Kenora's age now (10-11 months???)

So, it sounds like everyone is eating some of the freeze-dried when it's mixed with the kibble (Kenora is avoiding kibble ) If your kids don't seem to be avoiding the freeze-dried when it's mixed with the kibble, you can reduce the amount of kibble and offer the freeze-dried in kibble-sized pieces or larger chunks. Once all of your kids start prefering the freeze-dried to the kibble, you can separate the freeze-drie from the kibble. This way, all the freze-dried is eaten (no waste), and the kibble can be the "emergency snack" if they're really hungry and need something to hold them over tomeal time.

If all ferts are eating soup, you can put small pieces of meat in the soup. Over time, you can increase the size of the mea chunk and reduce the water content. This will help teach your kids to deal with chunks of meat. some bits of liver strirred into the soup will help you introduce organ meats.

You're doing FANTASTIC with your kids . Keep up the good work!!!

-jennifer

[lnsybean44]

Everyone but Norman are eating freeze dried chunks (barack has joined Kenora in his boycott of kibble). Norman on the other hand still prefers the kibble so I have kept it mixed but I will try as you have suggested and put chunks in one bowl and offer kibble in the other since we still have a ton of kibble left.

[lnsybean44]

Woot! I just bought a feeding den for each group. Its a nice big rubbermaid container that I am going to cut a hole in and put their food in to hopefully reduce waste. Is fits perfectly on the shelf of the FN

[lnsybean44]

Everything is still going fairly well. Kenora and Barack are still 100% raw but Cody and Norman are much happier at half and half. For the moment I am content that half and half is better than all kibble and eventually they will get used to it.

We had a minor incident over the weekend with Kenora not eating but it is from the antibiotics from her spay. She is off those now and she is coming into work with me tomorrow to get fluids from the vet I work with. I am hoping she will bounce back and it was just and upset stomach and not something worse.

[mustelidmusk]

H!
Many apologies for being MIA - dead computer , but I'm back on line now.

It sounds like things are going well for you and your fuzzbutts.

How is Kenora doing since her spay??? I assume she's back to her normal self??? And Barack, still avoiding kibble? Have you starte feeding chunks of raw chicken or other meats? Any organ meats???

As for Cody and Norman....slowly percentage of increase the raw over time. With this approach, you ferts shouldn't notice much of difference, if any at all. And yes, 1/2 kibble is MUCH better for your kids than all kibble!

Please let me know where you're at with feeding and where you want to go (raw meaty bones vs. commercial raw??? etc.) Mny times people start switching their ferrets with a specific goal in mind but change their goals once they get into the switching process.

I should be more reliable with the fixed up computer and my vacation out of the way. Again, I'm really sorry for the unexplained absence - computers are great until thestop working!!!

-jennifer

[lnsybean44]

Kenora gave me a scare with about five days of not eating or drinking but she is fine now and eating like she has never seen food before. I was hand feeding her babyfood and mice everyday and syringe feeding her water. I also had to bring her in to get liquids in the middle of it.

Barack is still loving his raw and I think I might offer him a pinky and see what he does. I give the other two the option of kibble and raw and they both choose raw for the most part but still eat the kibble. I am okay with where they are for now. The are active and maintaining their weight nicely. I am content that they are eating some raw and eventually, once the kibble runs out, they will be on all raw. (We still have a good amount of kibble left though).

The boys wont be getting any fresh raw unfortunately since my mom cant stomach the thought of feeding it once I am gone (plus sanitation issues) so we are sticking with the freezedried for them. Kenora on the other hand is mine so she gets mostly mice but the occasional chicken wing at night. Her main diet though will also remain freeze dried since it is easy for me to get and I can leave it with her while I am gone during the day. She does love her mousies though... except when she stops eating.

I will be getting a new privately bred boy sometime before the end of the year and he too will be switched to freeze dried and unless I am mistaken he should already be eating mice/chicken etc.

[mustelidmusk]

I read your post in the meds section on Kenora's ordeal - poor little girl! I'm sure she wasn't feeling well - she's very lucky to have such a GREAT ferret mom taking care of her! I'm sure you'll be keeping a close eye on her for a while just to make sure there's no minor infection that could linger.

Sounds like you're really doing well with your kids. Do try a pinkie for Barack - he may go crazy for it!

Kenora should be getting fed at least 3 different species types on a regular basis. The idea here is to rotate/mix in foods from a lot of different sources to ensure the diet is complete.

Mice can be a primary food. However, you need to feed from at least 3 meat sources per week. EVen more is better

** Mice - Be sure to alternate the ages of the prey (pinkies, fuzzies, hoppers, adults. Adults should be fed most of the time since the younger prey animals do not contain enough calcium. - In fact, many use pinkies as treats only)

** AFS freeze-dried raw is mostly beef with some chicken

** Chiken wings are good for poultry, although they are high in bone and lower in meat. I will discuss a RMB balance below, so you'll get a feeling for how to balance this out.

** You'll probably want to select another type of food source here such as lamb, venison, quail, duck, turkey, etc.

** treats and occasional foods can include egg, wax worrms and other insects, pinkies, etc.

Raw Meaty bones Diet -
-----------------------------
Note: a raw meaty bone is 50% bone and 50% meat. a wing is High in bone so some additional meat can be added along with a bit of liver.

Here is a general feeding guideline to establish a decent balance:
4 parts raw meaty bones, but these can be fed daily if they wish
2 parts muscle meat (flesh, heart and gizzard are muscle)
1 part organ meat (liver, kidney, pancreas, thymus, etc.)

Organs that secrete enzymes and/or hormones are organ meats. Organs that do not sectrete are muscle meats.

Increasing variety:
*Cuts/parts- feed more then JUST chicken wings (for example) get them to feed thighs, and legs as well. For boneless meat, have them feed different cuts: pork shoulder vs pork loin (for example)

*Ages- feed a variety of "ages" of meats. So for example beef/veal, mutton/lamb, chicken/cornish game hen, Pork/piglet, Turkey/Poult

Whole Prey Diet:
--------------------
*At least 3 types of feeder animals
*A variety of ages of feeder animals (about 70% adult, the rest can be babies)

RMB/Whole Prey Diet:
----------------------------
*To be sure the RMB is balanced by following the guidelines listed above. Also follow the whole prey guidelines (different ages and 70% adult prey)

The above information constitutes guidelines. The easiest thing to do is create a feeding schedule that reflects the following 3 :
*Feeding a variety of meats (atleast 3)
*Feeding enough bone
*Feeding the correct amount of organ meats (not under or overfeeding organ)

the whole prey is balanced, so is the freeze-dried raw. So all you need to do is balance out the RMBs.

Some people either spread the balance out over the course of 1 week (4 days of RMB, 2 days of boneless meat chunks, 1 day of organ meat). Others choose to balance the RMB, Meat chunks, and organs across a day.

For example, you may want to feed a mouse in the morning and perhaps an evening meal that follows the 4 day, 2 day, 1 day model. Or, if you feed wet raw once a day, you could feed a mouse every other day alternated with a daily balanced RMB meal (such as 1 segment of a chicken wing with a chunk of lamb and part of a chicken liver where the balance for that day roughly follows the RMB guidelines).

Again, this is not an exact science - if you know you were light on bone for one meal, you can add a little more at the next RMB meal. The key is to keep things balanced across the week.

Please let me know if you have any questions on this.

Keep working with your other kids as you see fit...I know the foods are not cheap, and you need to use up that kibble. Start introducing the organ meats and a bit of bone as well.

Are you getting your new fert from Kerry as well??? Her brats are WONDERFUL

Have fun!
-jennifer

[lnsybean44]

So is freezedried raw not a complete diet? I have been mixing in stella chewy's lamb in addition to the AFS. Basically what I planned on doing for kenora was feeding primarily freezedried and supplementing with a mouse treat.I do plan on mixing up the ages of the mice but right now the only whole prey I have access to are the mice. (and freezedried from Casey's hidden pantry.

Kenora is doing much better from her ordeal and is eating normally now and showing no signs of infection. She is still trying to be the queen bee and all of the boys are afraid of her. We are working on that though. I am trying to teach her that mom says NO.

[mustelidmusk]

Yes, the freeze-dried foods we've discussed are complete diets. Even wth freeze-dried, you an mix meat sources. Even with kibble, it's good to mix food sources. The reason for this is that we don't know everything about optimal nutitional requirements (not even for people!!) The idea is that eating from a wide variety of foods provides a little more assurance that there won't be something missing from the diet.

The Stella and chewies provide lamb and venison patties as well as chicken. For beef, you can buy the AFS. That gives you 3 meat sources aleady, all of which are provided balanced diets. I like mix the food providers as well since the recipes from different companies will have different strengths and weaknesses. No food is perfect.

That being said, I know of a few ferret-mill ferrets tthat live to be 9-10 - raised entirely on a single, not-so-great brand of kibble!

It's my personal opinion that ferrets can do extremely well on the freeze-dried diets...I actually favor them over the frozen foods simlpy because they hold nutritional value better....no freezer burn, risk of thaw/freeze cycles, etc. Even whole prey has that smae frozn food risk. I wanted to feed all freeze-dried raw, but the brats were eating like HORSES when they were groing. It was too expensive - so I added the frozen stuff.

A lot of people see the freeze-dried more as a kibble, and they feel the raw meaty bones approach i is better that frozen commercial raw. However, more veterinarians that support raw feeding recomend against RMB diets since there's a greater risk that the diet may be or become poorly balanced over time. Whole prey is best if it's done well. but a poor whole prey diet (all pinkies for example) is worse than a single-source kibble diet.

One of the things I try to do when I help people with diet is not just get them switched to raw, but also point out all options, provide examples of what you might want to try, etc. The cost/convenience equation is unique for everyone. But if you're not shown a bunch of possibilities, you won't have the option to develop the best plan for your needs. I'm a strong beleiver that a great diet is worthless if it doesn't work for the owner. And the more knowledge and understanding of diets you gain, the better the decisions you can make.

I want you to understand options and how to combine different things if you choose to change something in the future. there will always be forums that can help, but it's nice to have a solid understanding of the options that are available.

I'm glad Kenora is back to normal - it's no funt o go through the spay in the first place, and the pyometra is just another thing to have to worry about.
Well, as far as your little Queen Bee goes....I have one too. It's just the nature of some ofof those bossy little girls. kenora will mellow out with the boys when she's a little oler, but she'll always rule the roost - the girls are always in charge it seems. My smallest girl (the dark sable) is my little queen. He larger albino sister is THE Princess!!! She can dih it out but can't take it. The champange boy is the lumbering bear type - extremely cuddly. And the largest is my roan - he's the baby with ADD - but a big chicken!!!!

Please let me know if you have any questions on all this - it is a lot of info. So ask away... I'm sure I'm not expaining everything perfectly.

-jennifer

[lnsybean44]

That makes alot of sense. I will be sure to add some more variety to our next freeze dried order. I will also order another age of mice for kenora;s nightly treat.

I also forgot to mention, the boy that I am getting is actually from Julie at GFX. Provided kenora calms down a bit with the boys, he will be coming home July fourth weekend.

[mustelidmusk]

Julie's kids are so beautiful!!!! do you have a kit reserved from a specific breeding pair??? If so, which one?

What does Kenora do to terrorize the boys??? You may want to talk toJulie about Kenora's behavior....My Tomichi (Queen Bee) was directly "from hell" with her siblings, but she mothered/trained my youngest boy when we added him about 1 later. Also, dependng on the breeding pair, the kit may be a big boy. Julie's kits are pretty big. My "baby boy" was and is a monster. Good thing my assertive little Tomichi was there to keep him from tormenting the other two. So, I think talking to Julie is a great idea...breeders commonly get questions about such concerns - and they often have great advice on integrating new kits into new families. I gotta run right now, but I'lll be online tomorrow.
jennifer

[lnsybean44]

I am actually getting one of her older babies. Well, provided Kenora can play a little nicer. His name is Ipsum and he is from Squirrel. Kenora is just being a little snot with the boys. She is fine sniffing them but as soon as she sees someone's face, either because she got too close or because they did, she will grab them and scream. They are a bit intimidated by her and they dont fight back but she wont ust scruff and drag and be done with it. They take "turn the other cheek" to a whole new level. She has gotten better about not poofing though. At frist she would poof as soon as she made her first charge. But now she will wait about 20 minutes before "letting go".

[mustelidmusk]

have the boys pooped when they get attacked??? If so, they're pretty stressed out be her behavior, and you may want to keep them separarte for a while.

It's really hard to tell what's happening with ferret introduction issues. a new fert may be a good distration for Kenora. It's possible that everything smells like the boys, so she ay feel like she does not belong.

Do you a couple of tubes the boys can hide in to fdefend themselves and/or at least they can "escape"?

Here are some thngs you may want to try:
1. Spray bittter apple on your finger and wipe a little on the boys's cheek where she likes to bite.

2. Alternate holding the boys and Kenora during play without letting Kenora loose with the boys. Play with the boys while holding Kenora. and then hold the boys while Kenora is running free and playing. Alternate this during playtime such that nobody gets too frustrated.

3. Get one of those giant hamster balls. As soon as Kenora is bad. Put her in the hamster ball. I came up with this one for Shaman. It really helped A LOT since it was so different that all 4 of the ferts were very intrigued by this. Once Shaman would settle down, I'd let him out. Another ferrets would jump right in the ball. You don't need to leave them in the ball for very long at all since it's such a distraction that they all forgot about the issue at hand. The sill like to get in the ball and sleep in it...they'll even drag a small blanket and/or other toys into the ball

Evenif I enclose a ferret in the hamster ball today, they seem to like it for short periods of time. They can let themselves out of the ball now

Also, provide tubes, boxes with ferret-sized holes so the boys can escape to and defend themslves

I suspect Kenora will adjust. A new fert may not be as much of an issue for her since the environment won't smell like the new ferret.

That's All I can thnk of right now....I'll ask my super-experienced ferret friends if they have any ideas/suggestions as well.

-jennifer