Seventh heaven goes raw

[ferretpalooza]

OK, I have a couple of questions. Ive been reading Jaycee's thread and she was talking about wingettes vs chicken wings. Whats the difference? You think I ought to put a couple of wingettes in the cage during the day???
Also, maybe I messed up. I added two slices of beef liver and one large chicken liver to the soup. This makes 9 ice cube trays plus one pint leftover since it was a large batch. I also added 4 eggs and 1/2 bag of pingfords to two large pack of chicken thighs. Did I add too much organ to be feeding this to them twice a day?

We had brisket tonight so I sliced a big chunk off before I cooked it. I have a couple of major beef eaters. Man, they tore through the brisket..ha ha I am having to scruff Boudreaux, he has been a butt. He fights and swings in the air kicking and trying to get away from the meat. He does better with chicken. He is just stashing the bones and not eating them but at least he shows an interest. The rest wont touch them.

[Forum Administrator]

OK, I have a couple of questions. Ive been reading Jaycee's thread and she was talking about wingettes vs chicken wings. Whats the difference?

A wingette is the last segment of a chicken wing I used to advise people to try wingettes to wean their ferrets onto bone, but I now feel that its cheaper (and easier) to just take a chicken wing, hack it into 3 pieces (at the joints) and then offer that.

You think I ought to put a couple of wingettes in the cage during the day???

It wouldnt hurt. But like I said take a whole wing and cut it into 3 parts. You can also cut gashes in the meat to help them learn how to "grab on".

Also, maybe I messed up. I added two slices of beef liver and one large chicken liver to the soup. This makes 9 ice cube trays plus one pint leftover since it was a large batch. I also added 4 eggs and 1/2 bag of pingfords to two large pack of chicken thighs. Did I add too much organ to be feeding this to them twice a day?

Sounds like you might have done a bit too much egg and a bit too much organ. Here's what I would do. Before serving it can you toss some raw meat in the food processor or blender and mix it with your current soup? This way you "dilute" the organ heavy mixture.

We had brisket tonight so I sliced a big chunk off before I cooked it. I have a couple of major beef eaters. Man, they tore through the brisket..ha ha

Beef (and pork) are big favorites in my house too

He is just stashing the bones and not eating them but at least he shows an interest. The rest wont touch them.

I'm glad he is showing interest! Have you tried breaking the bone in half so that the marrow is exposed? Don't worry, the others will get the hang of it soon.

[ferretpalooza]

The bone Im giving Boudreaux is broken in half. The first time he licked as much of the marrow as he could and was shaking it around by a piece of fat. Now he is just stashing them. I end up throwing them away a couple of days later when they are dried and nasty or the dogs will eat them if they find them. I put 1/2 bone in the pen in front of a feeding box but no takers. It may be too early to put more in the cage. Didn know if I offer a plate of a few different pieces if it may encourage them or just wait till I have them eating the soup mix a little better.

I have some cubes of raw blended up chicken in the freezer. I usually give them seven cubes of regular soup and a crapload of cut up fresh chicken and hamburger meat. If they dont eat some of the meat on their own, I either hold or scruff them till they have at least 10 pieces of meat in the belly. The pieces are about the size of a little fingernail. How many cubes of the raw chicken should I add. I can make another batch of soup tonight without organ and add half and half. How many cubes of the organ mixture vs the plain meat or raw meat should I add. The poos are about 3/4 watery with some looking pretty green but I expect that since their guts are somewhat comprimised. Boudreaux was eating the breast meat but since I switched to thigh, he hates the texture so I have to scruff him and he fights like mad. We're doing this my way though so he doesnt get down till he eats at least 10 pieces. He is probably the one that is putting out the green since it is stressing him some, but if I dont do this, he will never switch. They still get kibble at night but not much of it gets eaten.

[Heather]

You're talking about adding or splitting your organ mix (the liver and such ) with a fresh batch so that they're not eating as concentrated organ mix, right? If that's the case I think it's probably a good idea. I'm afraid your one little fellow, Boudreaux is probably going to give you a bit of trouble....do you still have some breast meat that you can switch that off with... You know a bite of the breast meat then a bite of the dark meat. He may be battling you a bit on principle. The green poops usually signify a bit of stress (food actually passing through faster than is digested) I find that this does indeed occur when switching becomes a little stressful. I've never counted pieces. I usually feel bellies If they feel nice and round then they've had enough. The problem with counting is that if they've eaten some that we don't know about we could give them a tummy ache by over feeding. Just a thought. Otherwise, I certainly understand your stance and you're doing well.
One thing I've done when force feeding or scruff feeding is place the ferret in the position that you would do when medicating. Do you know what I mean? You scruff with one hand and lay the ferret along the arm and tuck his legs and belly under your armpit, you then feed with whatever is your power hand (for me I'm right handed) So I scruff the ferret with my left and lay him along my left arm and tuck him under my armpit to snug him up. That way the fuzzy isn't doing that bum swing thing they do when they're upset about get something they really don't like to eat ( usually meds but when your switching it could be a different flavour or texture)
Good luck, if you have any questions I will be checking back later this evening.
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

I got off late today. I mixed 3 organ cubes with 4 raw cubes (the new pack of chicken is cooking). I also stopped and got some beef steak and cut that up. They basically didnt eat much today. The problem is a few of them are in this big stand off with the raw but if I give them the kibble, they dont want it. Chuckie is even refusing to eat the 8 in 1 soft which has been his favorite treat for over a year. He is feeling pretty light but not real bony. I mixed the chicken stuff today with the raw and organ cubes and steak tonight. They all came in and turned their noses. Man, they are tired of being scruffed but since they dont want much kibble anymore, I have to force something so I may as well force the raw. I added and bunch of cream to it and mixed it up but I think at this point they are just pissed at me. I sat on the floor and they all would circle me like sharks. I grabbed them up and finger fed them till they recognized the cream flavor. Everyone but Boudreaux ate either steak or chicken. I sat Boudreaux in my lap and got him lapping the soup off the spoon. He refused to eat the meat. I had a couple of larger pieces so I got him lapping the soup off the pieces. He was just sitting in my lap so this was a lot less stressful. He would just nibble it with his front teeth and I started pulling it away and playing with him. He did grab 3 or 4 pieces and ran off with them......I guess it needs to be his idea. Im not sure if he ate them or not. I did put some kibble back in the cage in case someone is that hungry. They also have the rest of the cream/soup mix. Boy, this is a little scary to have them so in between and fighting against all the food. All I can do is keep going. Ill be making some more plain chicken cubes so I can cut the organ cubes. Do you think 3 organ cubes with 2 raw and 2 plain chicken will be ok? They get the soup twice a day. I can cut the organ cubes totally out of one feeding if you think I need to reduce it that much. If I have to keep adding a little cream to get them to continue to eat I will.

[Heather]

Ok...stuck between a rock and a hard place or should I say between soup and kibbles.
Let's take a step back and look at what was the combination that you got the biggest success with? You were using ground beef and chicken, correct me if I'm wrong. Let's go back to that mixture. Let's see if we can get them eating that again. I think you need a consistency the same as ground meat with your choice of liquid...which I believe is your soup and cream? did you ever try raw egg mixture with your ground meat?
Try to mix 2 organ cubes, 2 raw, 2 chicken...see if there poops start to solid up with that and see if they're more inclined to eat that? I'm in agreement with you, Boudreaux's problem is with texture not flavour. Him licking up the soupy like that implies that. Which meat is he eating...beef or chicken? Do you have access to ground meat that you can mix in the soup...make it so that it's more like a thin paste and see if he will eat it that way..no chunks, just a smooth paste...leaning toward liquid. Let's try and make it his idea that he's going to eat this. As I said previous, you may have to scruff to get him to taste it but hopefully he will start to lap it up as he recognises the taste and becomes more accustomed to it.
I will check in with you tomorrow morning to see how you and your furkids are doing.
Good luck
ciao
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

Wow, Im really gonna have to take a few steps back. This morning noone will go near the soup except Sully, but she has been gaining a tremendous amount of weight since spring shed. There may be something more going on here. She has an appt at the vet this morning. She lapped at it some and took all the raw pieces and put them on the ground next to her bowl. In the past 3 days, about the only thing they have eaten is what I force on them. I think the raw soup is turning them off too. I made another bowl with just soup to see if I could just get them to eat and noone but Sully will touch it. I did try the ground meat and egg. Chuckie likes it the most. I didnt want to do that now since I put egg in the soup. Here is what has been going on ferret by ferret.

Boudreaux-started out slow but was eating chunks of chicken breast at the bowl. Hates liver/liver soup and quit eating the chicken when I switched to thighs. He does like some steak but I have had to fight with him so much to eat, when he sees the soup bowl coming he runs to hide under the chair. This is not good since he was my abuse rescue and he used to run from us like this at first. It took months to gain his trust and be able to walk in the room without him running and hiding. I dont want him to start associating this with abuse again. He currently will not eat anything this morning. I think he is eating some kibble in the cage when it is there.

Miss Sully-She was eating the chicken breast very well. Like I said, she has packed on the pounds since March and she is way too fat. She will eat just about anything. Always the first and last at the soup bowl. Havent seen her eating kibble. She was the only one eating this morning but she was laying all the meat on the floor by the bowl. Did eat a few pieces of the beef liver plain in the egg mix.

Killa Man-Has always been a flighty soup eater but would stay for half a sitting. He is one who has to be scruffed to eat meat. He prefers the steak but will suck down small pieces of chicken if he doesnt have to chew them. Is looking rather thin lately. Has stopped eating unless scruffed. Is looking a little thin.

Max-Has always been a great soupie boy. Started eating the chicken breast really well. He is a foamy fry baby and nbone guy but doesnt finish his foamy fries anymore. He will lap up soup and still eat some chicken without scruffing, however, he is starting not to stay at the bowl long. Max did eat a few pieces of the beef liver plain in the egg mix. I have seen the biggest major difference in Max though, he has filled out and has much more energy.

Chuckie-Fights it all. He prefers ground meat. He eats the egg mix with ground meat if I sit and feed, have to scruff to get him started. I have to scruff him to get him to eat any meat. He is my boy who will sit on the cat box and wait for the ultimate 8 in 1 soft treats. He wont even eat them now. Looks like he is losing weight. I will weigh them all when I get back from the vet.

Bubba-Im not sure what Bubba is eating. He is a chunky stocky 5 month old. He had just started eating soup and now he doesnt want that or meat. He was eating the chicken breast at first but now it is a fight to get him to eat anything. He doesnt look like he is losing weight, but I dont see him eating. I believe he is eating the kibble at night. Loves nbones.

Buster-My major holdout man. He loves his kibble, but now when I put the bowl back in the cage he sniffs it and walks away. I have to scruff him to get him to eat any soup or meat. He prefers steak. The only treats he eats is foamy fries and nbones. He will still eat them

I think the biggest snags were the thighs and the liver soup. Maybe I will just start feeding that to the dogs. They all hate the texture of chicken thigh. I will pick up some more breast fillets. I though maybe just make a rich, thick batch of soup the way they are used to and just give them soup today to get something in the tummies. Im going to leave a bowl of kibble in the cage. It looks like someone is eating the litter (soft recycle paper pellets) in the pan next to the kibble bowl when I take out the kibble. I read where someone else ran into this and replaced it with paper. I dont want to change the litter pans because the cage is huge and they are 100% trained in there. I dont want to start a poo-out in there. .Chuckie is the only one who likes the ground meat. The other are stuck on steak and chicken breast. So I am off to the vet and will check in later. I have another pack of chicken thighs thawing.....ha ha, they were on sale last month and I bought 5 jumbo pack, good thing eh? I will make soup the way they like it this afternoon and wait to see what you say. Something has to give here though, I cant have them all go in starvation mode.
.

[Heather]

I don't like the fact that your guys have stopped eating. What have you changed? We've been rather all over the board...whatever happened this last time things have gone wrong.
I agree make the soup the way they used to like it. Let's see where we are from there. I'm concerned that you have a couple that are loosing weight that you can see. You have a couple who are eating that's good, now lets see if we can get the majority back on board. I'm concerned with Boudreaux's hiding. It shows that he's finding this very stressful and I don't want you to have to deal with an ulcer because your furbaby is so stressed about switching. Let's leave off the liver soup and see if you can get more takers without. Do you offer freeze dried liver strips? You know I had a dog (this may sound unrelated but it does work it's way around ) who would not eat liver at any cost...no way no how. So I just never fed it. He loved heart, didn't mind kidneys....hated liver... so I stopped feeding it. I don't think he suffered any. I started feeding him raw at about 5...he lived to be almost 13 (giant breed, gr pyrenees...average lifespan about 8 to 10) So if your furbabies don't want liver, I don't think it's a crucial as say bone/egg shell....know what I mean?
How were you're guys with the ground meat mix? Some were, some weren't???
I will check in a little later and see what your results from the vet were and see if we can come up with a game plan.
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

Sully checked out fine. She is just getting fat. Spleen and all other physical exam came out normal. They all just went to the doctor in the past two weeks and everyone checked out healthy. Im going to feed the liver cubes to the dogs and make a regular batch. For the time being, Im not adding egg or anything. I have a couple of boneless breasts thawing but Im going to see if I can get them all to eat plain soup tonight. Chuckie is the only one who will really eat ground meat. They rest are split between chicken breast or steak bits. Buster was in the travel cage for 5 hours today and at one time just slept with his face over the kibble bowl but never ate any. Sully, Buster and Max went today...actually none of them ate kibble. Im just going to try to get them to eat some soup tonight.

**Update**
They all ate some of the regular soup. They did not finish the bowl like they usually do, but they all have some soupies in the tummy. They are eating treats and 8 in 1 soft right now. Yeah, Im the bad mommy giving crap food today!!!!! I will leave the kibble in the cage for now. Tues, Wed and Thurs are my full days and my son has an early doc appt. Ill put some warm soupies in tomorrow morning so they have a choice other than kibble and will put a small amount of sliced beef and chicken breast in a bowl with some leftover chicken broth. Ill try some chicken breast in the soup tomorrow night. Im just glad to see them eating.

[Heather]

Great I'm happy to hear this. I also think that if you're going to be very busy over the next couple of days this might be the way to go. Let's get them stable, back to eating their soup and then when you've got a little more time on your hands we'll take a look at what we can change and what we cannot. Unfortunately, trial and error is a lot of how to switch your furbabies. I know it's frustrating but this is how it works. It's really why most people who have ferrets will tell you it's impossible to switch them to a different food. It's hard, time consumming and can be terribly frustrating. You're doing very well and you're furbabies are doing good too
I will check in with you tomorrow and see how you and your business are doing. I'm glad to hear that Sully is just getting fat A clean bill of health is always good news.
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

Well, Ive just accepted the fact that this is going to take a while. I dont want to split them up because they are all very bonded and it would affect out of cage time. As it is, they have a very roomy setup for cage time and get out anywhere from 4-7 hours daily. I think if we mess with that, any major change I want to make will actually be more difficult. They all ate soupies again this morning, even Buster. Boudreaux is very leary but Im not forcing anything on him and pick him up and love on him every time he is near which is how we got him over the fear in the first place. I put a bowl of soup in the cage for the day but did put a few chicken breast cubes in the middle. They can eat soup around the side or they can reach in the middle if they want a piece of clean breast. Many of them are not taking right back to kibble so today, the choice is back in. We'll see what they do tonight. I can understand the frustration. If they all simply dived back into the kibble bowl, I might be temped to give it up but I see that some really like something better. Ill just settle for chicken cubes for a while and see if we cant get them all eating them.

[Heather]

I certainly wouldn't be splitting them up so that feeding would be easier. No, the set up and the fact that they all play well together is great. No, that's wouldn't be one of my ideas as a solution.
I think you're idea is great. One protein source, that way there is time to get used to it. Did Boudreaux eat any of the soupy or did you just let him move around and get snuggles? Let's put this on a holding pattern and see if we can get everybody on board at about the same place. Keep an eye on who's eating just the soup, who's eating meat, and who's eating both. One of the things that I found once they get into the raw (your guys are very close) they stop eating the kibble except as a treat type thing. I've only had one ferret who would eat kibble after the conversion and that was Mad Max and I'm sure that was because to clicker train him not to bite, I was using kibble as treat. Napoleon doesn't even recognise it as a food option. It is great to dig in and throw around the floor. It looks like things are back under control. You're right, this is going to take time but I think in the long run you will probably find it is better for them
I will check in with you and your furbabies later tonight when I get in from work.
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

I observed Max and Sully eating the soup in the pen last night and they were both eating chunks of the breast. Buster has dived full force in the kibble again. I assume the others have too as yesterday the soup that was in there with the chunks in the middle...the soup was all gone but the chunks were barely touched. It appears overnight, the soup wasnt touched and the only chunks eaten were the ones I saw Sully and Max eating. Im off today cause Im sick with a cold so Im going to run errands this morning and leave that in there a little more to see if anyone wakes up and takes to it. Other wise Ill make a fresh batch and see if I can sit on the floor and encourage a few more takers.
I do have a concern. I was reading the thread on taurine deficiency. I dont want to bypass this subject and find out when someone gets sick. It said freezing deteriorates taurine. In my opioion, if Max and Sully are now subsisting on soup and white chicken, they may not be getting any taurine. They only source in the soup would be the pingfords porridge, however that is highly cooked and frozen, so is it really a source of taurine. Calcium could also be an issue. Pingfords has beef liver and bones in it but how much of that is comprimized due to cooking and freezing? Should I go to the health food store and get a taurine supplement? I know a lot of people here dont advocate supplements, but it looks like this switch could really take a while since mine are willing to starve over diet changes. At least the kibble they are eating is 90% Evo so it is one of the better ones out there, but I dont thing Max or Sully are eating kibble at all. I guess the same question on the calcium. Is the bone comprimised due to cooking? Should I also look into some bone meal? I could use supplements until they start eating bone or raw meats with taurine as I dont want them to develope heart problems due to deficiencies if it takes months for them to switch.
**this morning** Everyone ate soup, I had to finger feed Buster but he started eating it, however, he would lick around the chicken pieces. Bubba didnt eat soup with them at first but when I put them up after playtime, I put a fresh bowl in and he was eating soup and chicken chunks. Sully and Max continue to eat the chicken with the soup, in fact Max sat there for 20 minutes eating chicken chunks. Boudreaux and Chucky both ran off with a couple of pieces so the interest is still there. Killa just licked up soup. We are about at the same holding pattern we were before.

[Heather]

Ok, you've got some enthusiastic takers (really good ). Some who are eating the soup and toying with the meat (that's really good too ) and some that are eating the soup (still good ) You are getting there. As you have a cold....do nothing to the meals except offer what you have. You don't need any extra stress.
You can offer taurine in their mix, if you have concerns. I have used it in the past (more because I couldn't get heart meat more than anything) It certainly won't hurt them (it comes in capsuls and is tasteless). Bone meal .... I just don't use. It's cooked...I just don't go there. What I do offer is finely ground egg shell. Just clean the egg shell and let dry (raw egg) then process either in a grinder (a lot of people use their coffee grinders) or a mortar and pestle (that's what I use as it's not frequent enough to warrant me going out and buying a coffee grinder You use 1 tsp of egg shell to 1 lbs of meat. So if you use 1/2 lb then you use 1/2 tsp...and so on. If you use these 2 supplements that should cover any outstanding mineral problems until you get them eating raw properly. Look I've heard of people feeding baby food (processed crap) for over 6 months and not done any damage to their sick ferrets. So unless we're still feeding this way 6 months from now (I can't really see that happening really ) I don't think you really need to worry. My Loki was fed coco puffs by his previous owner...so what you're doing is anything bad
Take it easy, get better and I will check on you later
ciao

[ferretpalooza]

Last night I had all ferrets back around the soup bowl and they ate everything. I only have a few kibble eaters. Im just keeping soup and chicken in there. Not sure what the weekend holds. I have motel reservations in Atlanta starting saturday since we are in the cone of the hurricane so Ill just be staying in this pattern till all these weather systems pass as if things dont change its going to be very crazy. Im right across the lake from New Orleans and we went through this before. Im not taking any chances. I may not be on a lot but I can handle the soup/chicken deal irregardless.