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Post by Heather on Sept 17, 2010 13:00:32 GMT -5
I'm leaning toward IBD...possible ulcer too could be an issue (these can actually and unfortunately go together....stress is stress physical or mental) Both will give the symptoms that you're seeing with Koda. Considering the surgery and some of the stress that you have found yourself under (they feel it too ) I would lean in that direction. I don't know much about the ADV test. I do know that it is prone to false readings, I also know it only reads positive if the virus is active (why you're only clear for 6 months after testing). I talked with Randy about it one time and they do the saliva test at the shelter. One of the tests is quite reasonable in price (saliva) the other a blood test is quite costly. In cases like this...where the tests can and are notorious as either giving false readings or coming back as inconclusive my vet has a tendency to take a look at the symptoms and treat in the best case scenario. For example in this case. We would treat for helicobacter for a month. If things improve within a week or two (and they will if this is the case) then we continue on this route. This particular infection often needs a second months treatment but we usually stop meds after the first month for a week or two to see if the symptoms return. If they do continue after the 2 month treatment, then depending if the symptoms have changed or not (we might start looking at IBD and maybe a biosy would be done to determine IBD). If it were ADV, this treatment will not harm, nor will it make any difference in the long term prognosis. Treatment for ADV is actually a series of treatments set against symptoms as there is no real treatment and the prognosis is dire. Even if this indeed the case, Danee actually had a couple of her ADV ferrets live long lives (6 or 7 years). One or two of them never even developed the disease thought they carried the antibodies and one became a carrier if my memory serves. It all depends entirely on what symptoms your ferret has. I look at it as something similar to AIDS...you fight the symptoms, not the disease. ciao
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Post by katt on Sept 17, 2010 19:19:20 GMT -5
mjohn - try that, and also try removing chicken if that doesn't work. They can have chicken allergies that cause the same symptoms. I've already ruled that out for Koda unfortunately. lol
Heather and Sherry - thanks for the good info! I want to see what the vet thinks before testing for ADV. I really don't think that is it, but I have not ruled it out either.
If it is ulcers, wouldn't that mean that it is heliobacter since they are the cause of ulcers in ferrets? Or do they also get stress induced peptic ulcers like humans do?
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Post by Heather on Sept 17, 2010 20:50:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure of the percentage but it's really high that it's probablyt helicobacter virus. My vet usually treats that first. I honestly don't know if they can get peptic ulcers or not, though I don't see why not. It's just a part of the body. My son had peptic ulcers and it was caused by the same virus. Most or many ulcers are caused by the same helicobacter virus, human or ferret. Loki actually got mouth ulcers (it was unfortunately part of his renal failure, possibly even his adrenal). It made eating very painful, but he didn't have dark stools. He just stopped eating and would grind his teeth. Antibiotics helped but unfortunately couldn't fight the shutting down of his organs ciao
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Post by mustelidmusk on Sept 17, 2010 21:09:36 GMT -5
Katt, I honestly would not bother testing for ADV unless you've exhausted all other possibilities. I also would not bother doing a biopsy for IBD. The reason for this is that you'll end up going through the same steps to figure out how to help Koda's tummy regardless of what the tests say. As far as ADV goes, Koda is not even showing typical symptoms. He has lost weight because he's pooping his little brains out! So, put that destructive thought about ADV out of your mind. You have NO reason to believe Koda has ADV. Now the IBD is something that fits Koda's profile pretty well. Here is why I feel this way: 1. It's a documented fact male ferts are more prone to IBD/GI issues than females. 2. IBD commonly strikes young males around 1-2 years of age 3. Koda has classic IBD symptoms for a ferret. relatively persistent 4. Koda is a stress prince, and he's VERY emotionally sensitive 5. I've noticed that IBD ferrets are more prone to pica (eating things they should not be eating - like bedding/fabric, erasers, etc.) It seems to be a stress-related behavior goes along with the stress prince personality. 6. Koda has a wonderful mommy who is also going through a lot of stressful stuff (pre-med. is rough). She is no doubt a type-A personality and a control freak/worry-wort to at least some degree. Koda senses this, and this affect his stress levels as well. This is not BS - ever run out of deodorant and have a stressful day??? OK, I'm posting this now before I lose it....more info later. -jennifer I
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Post by mustelidmusk on Sept 18, 2010 0:15:57 GMT -5
So, let's talk about IBD..... I'm a little skeptical of rushing in for biopsies for a handful of reasons. I'm more inclined to try a few therapies before invading my babies' bodies. This pretty much explains why... 1. You have to take tissue from many places in an already inflamed system and hope you get a representation of everything that's going on. 2. Lab interpretations for ferrets typically is not all that great. H. Mustelae, giardia, coccidia and other "cooties" are normal findings in ferrets. Intrepretation of lab results tends to depend on the knowledge of the pathologist analyzing the samples. This is an EXTREMELY INTERESTING and INFORMATIVE read: www.afip.org/consultation/vetpath/ferrets/PDF/Ferret_GI_path_reports.pdf3. you still have to figure out what works best for YOUR ferret since most IBD typically involves more than one issue (bacterial, viral, and/or parasitic infection, and/or immune response/allergy, and/or possible functional issue cause by faulty brain/gut communication) Here are a few things to keep in mind.... frank blood in not digested and comeds from the colon (intestinal issues). digested blood come from the stomach or possily high up in the doudenum (high igher area of the small intestines, etc) not all IBD/ulcers result in blood in early stages. Blood work (CBC) can suggest infection, allergy,weird immune response, etc. An experienced ferret vet will typically want to try a few things and monitor progress before doing invasive things. A least this is how my vet deals with ferrets. I never did do a biopsy on my boy that had IBD. The key is to get the inflammation down and learn to manage any flareups. Regarding imuan... imuran is used if pred. does not work. The pred is definitely a milder treatment than the imuran. The greatet risk with pred is fatty liver disease. But the imran affects he bone marrow and production of blood cell, which is worse. Remember, the immune suppression rug will be given for a short period of time. Once the bowel starts to function more normally, the pred can usually be stopped Hopefully the IBD will remain under control for a long time before a flare-up kicks in. In the meantime, you can hopefully tweak the diet. IBD fert do better on higher fiber diets. some do better on canned food and/or freeze-dried or kibble that raw. There was an IBD ferret named Apple on this site. I was Apple's mentor for a long time. We got Apple doing pretty well with a mix of different foods. There is one more thing to keep in mind.... there is a GI disease in ferrets called eosinophilic gastroenteritis. quite a few experts feel that EG is caused by food allergy. I know that you withheld beef for a few weeks an saw no difference. You will need to withhold the offending food and quiesce the gut or at least 4 weeks to determine whether or not a difference is made. Many allergy trial actually reduce the feedings to a single protein source (for 4 or more weeks). An second protein source is then added fslowly and the two are fed for four or more weeks, etc. The most likely offender for ferrets would be hickenore grains that are commonly found in kibble. Most kibbles are chicken based. over- exposure to poutry and grains through generations of kibble feeding has resulted in a tendency toward allergy to the common ingredients. Some ferts cannot handle any poultry. I need to look up a good IBD article I have hidden in my files. (Next post.) -jennifer
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Post by mustelidmusk on Sept 18, 2010 0:34:44 GMT -5
OK - here is the link...another good read... www.2ndchance.info/inflammatoryboweldisferret.htmYou've probably noticed that the Helicobacter falls into the IBD discussions - again, IBD is usually a combo of things which is why it usually gets treated with a combo of things like antibiotics and pred. many will argue that you need to know exactly what is wrong before you treat because suppressing the immune system might make the H. pylori worse. That's very true assuming only ONE thing is off balance. Treating IBD is frustrating at first. But once you get it under control, you may not have to deal with it for quite some time, and when you do have to deal with it, you'll have a better idea of what works for YOUR ferret. They're all different with their IBD. Part of the management and prevention of more flare-ups involves adjusting fiber cotent, using probios and enzymes to offload stress on the gut and inrcrease nutritional absorption. Dipan-9 (Thorne Research) works well on IBD ferts and has NO lactose even though it's 100% pancreatic enzyme. I used a brand of probios on my schitzo that worked well too...can't recall the name - I think they may have required a prescription (RX-biotics? the product was developed by one of the integrative vets I go to) There is another enzyme product that may be cheaper, but it's not as effective, I need to look that one up to see what's in it....t may need to be fed differently depending on what's in it. That one is vetzimes II - it's for cats) I will get details for you. -jennifer
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Post by katt on Sept 18, 2010 1:06:16 GMT -5
Jennifer - Great info - thank you! The thing about the Pica is very interesting, I will be sure to mention it to the vet. I thought the same thing for allergies, and thus have not given Koda anything but turkey meat (until today...) since um a few weeks ago. I'd have to look at when I made my first poop posts (maybe my multiple threads should be combined? lol) for a date, but Shane says he thinks it was 2 weeks ago, I thought it was longer... I picked turkey because it was not in the mix of foods that Koda was getting in his last batch of my preprepared freezer stock so I thought it would be a good neutral ground. But it is still a poultry... What other meat could I use that would be a good tester meat? I am afraid of having a low variety for too long. I do have some freeze dried, but I wanted to keep that for treats as it is expensive to feed regularly. I'd have to order more to do that. My vet is fantastic. She will work to avoid invasive procedures, antibiotics, etc and try to save me money without avoiding things she thinks we need to do. She always explains why she thinks I should or should not have something done and then leaves the decision up to me with no pressure. The only "pressure" I have really felt is to supplement Koda's diet with kibble and/or a vitamin supplement. She isn't against raw, but not really for it either. As for probiotics, I imagine yogurt will work for now, but what about in the long run? Also, for fiber, will adding in the fiber increase his risk of insulinoma? I also read that lymphoma rates are much higher in IBD ferrets... I am really trying to absorb all of this. Blood work can be expensive... Do you think I should start with antibiotics for the heliobacter then, and if that does not work try pred for a shirt period? What would be your personal choice for a course of action and assume each does not work - what would be your next step. That will help me have a better idea of different plans to talk to my vet about. I am definitely still bringing him in on Wed, I can look for some duck meat to refatten him... I am not sure about the Vaseline thing because Heather said here: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=gen&thread=5813&page=1 that it can stop absorption which I do NOT want. He needs to absorb more. Is there a multivitamin that I can give him? Like a kids (non-sugared) multiitamin cut into 1/8ths or something? want to see if she can prescribe some when we go in. I have noticed also - and I mentioned it to Shane and he agrees so I don't think I am imagining it haha - that at times Koda seems to look...pale. I can't think of a better word. His facial skin (ears, around his eyes, lips, etc), ears, and paw pads seem less vibrant pink and much paler than usual. Is this normal for IBD flare ups, and is it something I should worry about? Them ore I look at him now the more I realize he has definitely lost weight. I think I didn't notice it because it was gradual. Now that I actually paid attention to it though and compared it to before I am afraid he may have lost more weight than I realized and might still be losing weight. I think a diet of only turkey for the last few weeks has only made that worse since it is low fat... Could the thing with his nails splitting (not up the nail, but like little splinters when he scratches on his kennel or when I clip his nails) be related to all of this? I still can't convince him toe eat the velvet antler...he will eat everything else though... I know I have more questions but I can't think of them right now. I want to gather as much as I possibly can before going in on Wed...
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Post by mustelidmusk on Sept 18, 2010 12:44:23 GMT -5
Regarding the pica, I believe it may be a stress-related behavior. Anyway......if the mucous membranes (in particular) are pale, this may be a sign of anemia. Usually, the gums look pale. pressing on the gum tissue will make the gum look paler... As capillaries in the gum tissue refill with blood, the gums become pink again. A slow "refill" rate suggests anemia. Other symptoms of anemia include: 1. lethargy/excessive sleeping 2. increased heart rate (especially during play) 3. increased breathing rate (especially during play) the reasonfor this is that thee are fewer red blood cells to carry oxygen and nutrients to the cells in the body. There are two types of anemia, primary and secondary. (There must be some weird medical terms for this, but my memory sucks....always has, always will . ) Secondary/regenerative anemia results from blood loss. this is very possible with IBD/helicobacter/campylobacter/salmonella/etc. -> GI issues, especially if this as been persistent over time. Ferrets do NOT have a lot of blood. Primary/aplastic anemia results from insufficient generation of blood cell in the bone marrow. This can be caused by an autoimmune disorder (hemolytic anemia). Long -standing cases of adrenal can also result in aplastic anemia. Based on Koda's age and health history, I would suspect Koda may have blood loss. This is much easier to fix than aplastic anemia. To help with this, liver is a good source of iron. However, this is may compound the "gut thing". As such, I agree that a vitamin for koda would be a good thing. Things that help IBD: !. eat smaller meals more frequently. If you can feed 3 small meals per day rather than 2, this would be a good thing. I know that most of us do NOT have a "lunch hour" available. So, here's a good example on how you can manage this.... It seems that ferrets seem to eat their biggest meal in the morning. When you feed Koda's evening meal, prepare his morning meal as well. (A time saver since you will be feeding supplements) Mix up the morning meal, supplements and all. divide it in half and put this on two serving plates. drizzle/mix in a little water and/or olive oil (not too much of either). slide each bowl into a reuseable ziplock bag and refrigerate overnight. (Those bags get expensive, so I reuse/them and even wash/reuse them. The bit of water oil keeps the meat from drying out. First thing in the morning, give one bowl of food to Koda. Do your "get ready for school/work" thing. When you're ready to leave for the day, put any leftover food from the first bowl on top of the food in the second bowl. Give Koda the second bowl of food. Ideally, there should not be food left in the first bowl. The iea is to slow down the rate at which Koda is ingesting his food. This approach usually works better at night if 1. you have control over your evenings. 2. your ferret is hungry enough to eat twice in the evening. The assumption is that there's a greater period of spare time in the evening than in the morning. (that's NOT true in my case . ) Ask your vet what she recommends for diagnostics. She may want to do another fecal. For fecals, if you collect the sample yourelf, here's the best way to handle this... Try to get first appointment with your vet. If you can't do this, don't fret...Koda will probably be sleeping when you go home to get him for his appt. he'll probably wake up and poop. If you can, provide a clean potty box with no litter- one that's kind of "sterile". when you wake koda up, hold him for a while give him kisses. Put him in the potty box. If he doesn't poop, let him walk around a bit --- grab him if he acts like he's ready to "back up" and put him back in the potty box. If you get a sample, put it in a ziplock bag. Put the ziplock bag into a paper lunch bag or some other container for "safety purposes - here's why you want to double-bag..... put the sample in the refrigerator - LOL!!!! This will provide the freshest sample other than immediate delivery at the vet's. If he does not poop, no worries. Most IBD ferrets will instantly poop when violated with a thermometer. Pancreatic enzymes: ------------------------ Dipan-9 (Thorne Research) 1/8 TSP in each meal This is a pancreatic enzyme that is concentrated and lactose-free. vet-zimes (Ness)V2 (for cats) 1/4 tsp in each meal this is a fungal enzyme. these work better than plant source enzymes Prozyme Plus (PRN Pharmaca) 1/4 tsp per meal. Plant-based enzymes. (Prozyme plus is lactose free - original prozyme has lactose, and the cat version has brewers yeast, which is BAD for ferts) Enzymes work best when mixed into food, which then sits at room temperature for 20 minutes prior to serving. Prozyme products can sometimes be purchased at holistic pet stores. If you cannot find/afford the above, you can find a bromelain-based enzyme product at a local store (even a drug store or grocery store will probably have some thing. Bromelain (from pineapple family) works better than papain (papaya). 1/4 tsp per meal. Shoot - I gotta run. I need to continue later. Brobios will be next. -jennifer
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Post by katt on Sept 18, 2010 13:10:58 GMT -5
Would feeding a higher amount of whole prey help or hurt IBD? It would have more fiber and be more balanced... I will definitely try to get a poop sample before we go to the vets Wed!
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Post by katt on Sept 19, 2010 1:27:24 GMT -5
Ok so here is a video of Koda and I playing. I tried to get some good shots in light and not in light showing how skinny he is. You can see it the best by his hips. I also got his nose and face at the end. He looks less pale today, but it seems to alternate. Still not as pink as is "normal" for him. What do you guys think?
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Post by mustelidmusk on Sept 19, 2010 1:41:38 GMT -5
I'm guessing that you're having trouble getting the link to the video...or if your like me, you forgot to put the link in your post. Or, I'm a dork and I'm missing the obvious, which is typical for me... D'oh!!! -jennifer
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Post by katt on Sept 19, 2010 3:01:33 GMT -5
Nope. I'm the dork! lol I forgot he link I think he is nauseous because he keeps gagging. Almost like a little dry heave. poor fuzzybuddy...
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Post by mustelidmusk on Sept 19, 2010 12:51:48 GMT -5
Dang!!! (actually, it was a long string of some of the more colorful expletives I'm aware of ) I just lost a LONG post for you I'll have to re-post details later. Koda does not look bad at all, althogh all ferts are different and I do not know what normal is for Koda. I have some more stuff to post for you, but I need to get to work now more later. -jennifer
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Post by Heather on Sept 19, 2010 14:45:22 GMT -5
Jennifer when you look at the video, check the very back of Koda's throat...it's right near the end. He yawns, right at the very back, it's very very red, at the very back appears to be the beginning of an ulcer. The only reason why I thought to look was that Loki Bears had one right there (he may have had others, but that was the one that created the problem). If the vet hadn't been holding him, you couldn't see it. The only reason that she saw it was she was looking for it and I was holding him. You know, he's not thin. Most of my ferrets carry about that much trim, abit more during the winter but you don't want a fat ferret. The common complaint is that we over here keep our ferrets too fat, it's hard on them. We also have a tendency to judge our ferrets by our kibble fed brethren. Despite his ongoing illness, he appears in good weight, his eyes are bright, his colour isn't bad (a bit hard to tell by the video). He's curious, in to trouble. I'm betting helicobacter....that's what I would be guessing at. The ulcer at the back of the throat would cause him to paw at his mouth and gag. Jennifer??? Opinion?? This has been your case.
ciao
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Post by katt on Sept 19, 2010 14:56:32 GMT -5
Heather, that is interesting that you said that because there was a reason I kept trying to shoot the inside of his mouth yawning. I didn't see the one you are talking about - I will have to look - but if you look RIGHT behind his top front teeth, there is a little pink bump. I couldn't get a good look at it but you can kind of see it in the video if you look really closely. It is hard to convince him to hold his mouth open - and still - long enough to look at much of anything lol I was ridiculously tired last night so I forgot to mention that.
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