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Post by spiritualtramp on Feb 25, 2010 19:09:31 GMT -5
That's awesome!!! Go Pigpen! He sounds ready for anything at this point, that's so exciting. The others will get there, too. Keep offering smaller bones for them, and generally when they see someone else enjoying it, they'll try some too. Once they are well-switched and eating most anything you offer, I suggest varying meats every meal. I never feed the same thing twice in a row, and as you know through your cats, variety helps to even out nutritional imbalances. Plus, variety is the spice of life, or so they say. The kids are definitely exuberant at mealtimes, wondering what it is for that meal. I think they like the surprise, too Beech Nut brand baby foods do have some discoloration at the top but that's perfectly normal. Try mixing the Beech Nut with Gerber's, a small bit of BN at first and gradually increase the ratio until he's off the Gerber's and accepting the BN no problem. The discoloration is because it is all-natural and uses no corn starch to bind, thicken, and keep homogeneous throughout. Think of it like natural peanut butter - the oil rises to the top, but just mix it up and it's fine again For the taurine, it's suggested to add it AFTER freezing and thawing, because taurine breaks down when frozen and/or heated. I know Jennifer (mustelidmusk) has a sticky around here somewhere about that, and for supplemental forms of taurine I would imagine it breaks down even more rapidly in extreme temperatures than its biologically-available counterpart. Let me know when you get the S&C's in! I like to break a patty or so up into smaller pieces, and then let soak in warm water for a bit before serving. But, you can of course serve it dry, too (which is part of the allure!) Linus definitely sounds like he's feeling better, and I agree that keeping him on raw is the right choice. The pred has kicked in and he's doing so much better. I am sure in a few more weeks he'll begin to eat on his own, too. I do think right now he's still unsure of himself and his meals, and prefers the 'security' of being hand-fed. When I was switching my kids, Ranger enjoyed being hand-fed too - and he was perfectly healthy! He just was self-conscious and nervous about his big brother Diesel making fun of him I'm pleased at how far along everyone is coming! Sorry I hadn't popped in for a couple of days - my internet service has been experiencing some issues lately that make surfing extremely difficult! I have Fair Point, and they're going through a big class-action lawsuit and I imagine they are laying off and reorganizing in a huge way which is causing some disruptions. It's frustrating for sure, but they did credit my account for three months because of the issue. Which was nice.
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Post by catznfertz on Feb 25, 2010 22:58:13 GMT -5
That's really good to know about the Beechnut baby food. I don't have any people kids, so baby food is a foreign concept to me. I saw that stuff and thought it looked like black mold or something nasty like that!! I tossed two jars of it- oops.
So far everyone seems to be doing pretty well. Had pork again for dinner, and will for breakfast tomorrow, then tomorrow night I'll try them on some more chicken. I made up a smallish batch (only 5 lb or so?!) and ground the bones fine and ran some of the boneless chunks through the coarse plate. So they have plenty of mooshy stuff to slurp up, but hopefully they'll get a bit of something to chew on too. It's kind of frustrating to have one ferret still being spoon fed, another already crunching bones, and everyone else in the middle. Kinda have to dumb down the whole class just for the slow kid!
I gotta give little Linus some credit though, he's actually eating on his own for the most part. I weighed him this evening and he's back to where he was before we started, which is good. This evening he didn't eat a whole lot at dinner, but had a good bit from the plate. I'll keep a close eye on him and try leaving him to his own devices more.
I did get my order of S&C this afternoon, and opened up the chicken and beef patties. I just offered it dry (the whole point being for it to be like kibble only healthier) but only got one taker. Give you three guesses who that might be... PIGPEN! Little sucker will eat anything, apparently. I'm not sure at this point how hard I want to work at converting the rest of these guys to freeze dried, though, now that they Linus seems to be doing so well now on raw. Since it wasn't an immediate hit, I'm going to concentrate on getting them used to switching foods back and forth and then add in another protein. I'm debating on whether to try duck again next or go with turkey. I bought a jar of the BN turkey and broth baby food, so I thought that might be a good intro to the new flavor? To bad they don't make duck, rabbit and mouse-flavored baby food!!!
Can you store freeze dried foods in the freezer? I stowed them there to keep it away from my cats who, if given an iota of a chance, would happily tear into the bag and demolish the whole thing.
Glad you're back online!! :-)
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Post by spiritualtramp on Feb 28, 2010 19:26:01 GMT -5
Sure, you can store the S&Cs in the freezer - no harm and it'll save forever. I'm sorry it wasn't a huge hit, but keep offering it, maybe others will catch on after a while. My guys all love it, and my cat, like your cats, will search it out too Linus definitely is getting back on track if his weight it back up! Go Linus! I think he must be eating on his own, too, if he's gained back all that he lost. I knew he'd get there It'm so glad he's starting to get back to normal, he must be feeling loads better. I know it's frustrating when everyone is on a different level. I went through that too. My boy Diesel and girl Sailor (RIP) were eating raw fully with no issues from the get-go. Pilot, Tank and Ranger (RIP) were slow-going, and Tank was the worst. I had him on freeze-dried while everyone else was gnawing bones, because he just wouldn't take to the texture of meat. Eventually I was able to sneak some chunks into his S&Cs and he caught on, but it was a very slow process for him especially! And he was the youngest kid at the time! Be patient and it will happen. Sometimes just seeing one fuzz crunching on bones is enough to get more cautious kids to try it. Monkey see, monkey do. I'm sure your switch with the cats was similarly full of struggles! Maybe more so. I was back, and then I disappeared again. We had a huge storm Thursday night that knocked the power out for two days. Hurricane force winds had trees and power lines down across the state, and it was three days of rain, too, so everything was flooded too. Finally have power back today, and things are starting to get cleaned up, but much of the state still has power loss and trees everywhere. Crazy! I hope all is well with you, at least considerably less windy and flooded than in my neck of the woods
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Post by catznfertz on Mar 1, 2010 21:28:44 GMT -5
Well I'm glad you survived the storm ok. We have had more snow this year than I can ever remember, and even a full scale blizzard Christmas eve, but finally the snow has melted off and my crocuses are blooming. I don't care what the calendar or the weather guy sez, if flowers are blooming it must be springtime!
I think everyone seems to be doing pretty well so far. I switched back to chicken a couple days ago. It's a much coarser grind than the first batch, and I ground up the whole leg quarter without removing any bones. The pork I have is just plain muscle meat, so that will even out. I'll give them some of that for dinner, and then if they take that ok I will switch off every meal for a few more days.
For adding a third meat, I plan to introduce it over the course of a week or so like I did with the pork. Should I just feed the new meat (probably turkey) during that time, mixed in increasing amounts with chicken, or keep going back and forth between chicken, pork, 25% turkey, chicken, pork, 50% turkey? I think this was about the time I got hung up previously with kids not wanting to eat.
How do you feed your organ meats to multiple fuzzies? I don't think I could just set down a plate of Mom's Famous Liver and Kidney (and miscellaneous other nasty body parts) Stew and expect for everyone to get their fair share. When I feed twice a day, I make sure Linus gets something to eat, but everyone else is on their own. If they're hungry, they eat now, if not they eat later. It kind of worried me at first, but I have come to accept they're just snackers. So I'm thinking the organ stuff may just have to be spoon fed so each gets their share. Otherwise Piggy will eat it all! I had to do the scruff& stuff routine with Franklin, but he's getting where he will lap it out of a spoon. I don't want to rely on mixing organs with ground meat, cuz eventually I want them eating chunks of real food instead of liver and kidney flavored mush.
Speaking of scruff & stuff, have you ever met a ferret that didn't like ferretone??? I was trimming nails last night with the tone-on-the-tummy trick, but Franklin would have none of it. I've had to scruff him several times to get him to taste the fish oil I use, and he's coming around to that, but it never dawned on me that he wouldn't like tone. I finally got him to lick some off the bottle, but he never would lick it off his tummy long enough to get his toes trimmed.
Linus has decided that Beechnut baby food is no good. I tried mixing it with the other stuff, but once it got to more than just a little BN, he wouldn't take his meds with it. I had to scruff him last night, and got peed on for my trouble! I guess he's just a Gerber baby...
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Post by catznfertz on Mar 4, 2010 19:45:37 GMT -5
So far turkey seems like it shouldn't be too much of a problem. We're up to about 50/50 with pork, and it hasn't slowed them down at all. Tonight for dinner, we'll try 75/25 or so and see how they like that.
Once we get turkey down pat, I'll start working on chunks. Right now their chicken is coarse ground, pork is medium, and the turkey is fine ground. I still have to add quite a bit of water to make it kinda slurpable.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 6, 2010 12:48:51 GMT -5
Finally got my internet fixed for real, I had someone out today to fix the problem! So sorry for the on/off absenses while I dealt with that.
I don't use Ferretone but no, I have not met a ferret that doesn't like oils! I have read of some kids taking some time to adjust to liking 'Tone or oils, but in the end they always come around. I do, however, have a fert that HATES having oil on his belly. Diesel will kick, scream, and smear salmon oil all over me and my furniture if I attempt to put a drop on his tummy for nail-clippings. It's a no-go, every time, so I cut his nails by scruffing him with my mouth and trimming them quickly that wya. The others are fine with oil on their bellies and naturally that is easier so I do that with them. I use Bravo's Alaskan Salmon oil and everyone loves it. I've used Totally Ferret's Vivify, which has emu oil in it, and they love that as well.
Keep trying the oil with Franklin. He'll come around. Try mixing some into food, or offering it when you aren't doing nails or something "traumatic." And, he may just be like my D and hate having it on his fur, so you may have to adjust your nail routine around that.
For the BN, I would keep trying it. I think Linus is able to taste the corn starch in the Gerber and this is why he's protesting the BN. The minimal amount of carbs in the Gerber is like crack to him! He needs that sugar rush - but in reality he DOESN'T need it! BN offers other flavors too, so maybe try another variety to see if that goes over better. I've seen lamb, beef, chicken, and turkey. My kids like them all and I've never had a problem with introducing a ferret to it. I think Linus is just being finicky right now, maybe protesting because of all the changes and because he wasn't feeling so hot. But he will come around, he's doing well with the raw as it is so that's progress!
I'm glad to hear they're all accepting the turkey without hitch. I figured they would, since it is so similar to chicken. I've never had any issues in introducing turkey, either.
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Post by catznfertz on Mar 7, 2010 23:17:38 GMT -5
Introducing turkey was so easy, I think I'm gonna try to introduce yet another meat toward the end of next week. I'm debating on whether to try beef or duck next. Probably duck again since I still have some, and I want something else I can grind with the bone. I've been adding around 1/4 tsp of eggshell to their boneless meals, but I'm still getting some pretty liquidy poos. When you wrote before about only feeding four boneless meals a week, I kind of wondered, since my cats only get bone in meals about four times a week. Now I see why ferrets do better with more bone.
I am still wondering how people generally manage the organ situation. All of mine will eat my famous liver and kidney stew, but with variuos degrees of coaxing. If I planned to feed ground forever, I'd just mix it in there, but eventually I want to feed real food.
Last night I had some extra pork that I cut off the cats' dinner (they are starting to get pudgy cleaning up leftovers!) and cut it up into little slivers and mixed it in with the ferrets turkey. When I got up this morning, all the turkey was gone, and the pork slivers were still there, licked perfectly clean. I did see Schroeder noshing on a couple jerkified pieces later in the day, but the rest became cat food again. Sneaky weasels!!
I tried Linus again on the BN baby food, but he's just not having it. He'll eat it off a spoon with a little coaxing, but he doesn't like it well enough to tolerate his prednisone in it. I'm just gonna call it good since the Gerbers is only 2g carbs per jar, and one jar lasts a whole week. He doesn't even get the whole jar, since after that long I just feed the rest to the cats. Darwin doesn't get too excited over food as a general rule, but he will take you down for a lick of gerbers baby food! I figure with such a drastic improvement in Linus's diet over the past couple months, surely he can afford a little "splurge" to help the medicine go down!
Otherwise, we seem to be doing pretty well.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 7, 2010 23:47:18 GMT -5
I just feed liver/organs as one meal a week. Pilot and Tank get it pureed up with yogurt into a soup, once a week, and the big boys get them whole. You can keep doing the soupy special for their organ meal, that's not really a problem. Some kids just never get over the texture of raw organ, and truthfully, it's easier to serve as a soup anyway --- try waking up with a liver on your pillow... I'm not sure how clear I made the bone/muscle meat ratio thing. I only feed four MEALS per week of boneless meats, and one of organ. So that leaves 9 bone-in meals per week. My cat gets maybe three bone-in meals per week. So it sounds like you got it a little backwards. Ferrets do much better on lots of bone, whereas cats need far less (as you've discovered.) So eventually you can up their bone intake to a more per week, once they are readily eating bones. Glad things are going well, and that Linus is doing alright. I'd try duck before beef only because duck is more similar to things they've eaten thus far. Beef is much different and they may have more trouble accepting it, so it might be wiser to try that once they're more settled into the raw routine. Other than that, things sound great so far. Keep up the great work.
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Post by catznfertz on Mar 9, 2010 0:25:18 GMT -5
Nope, I understood you quite clearly on only feeding four boneless meals per week. It just didnt make much sense, coming from the cat perpective as I do. Now that I've seen the ferret box after bonelesss meals, it makes much more sense.
It does bring up the question of what meats you feed bone in. My kitties mostly get chicken for bone, with the occasional quail or duck, or rarely rabbit. I can get duck pretty cheap at the Asian market, but no way I can afford quail or rabbit that often. Obviously beef, pork, and turkey legs are not viable bone sources for ferrets. I had considered grinding up the chicken leg bones I pull out of my chicken mix, and adding it to the pork and turkey, but once again that doesnt really translate to real food.
I have discovered that our dear friend Linus is a turkey man! Lately all I have had to do to feed him is set him down next to the plate, which is a nice change from the spoon thing. This evening I set him down first to get a head start, and Schroeder, Pigpen, and Franklin ran up to join him. I turned my back for a few minutes to locate Patty under the cabinet, and when I turned around, the plate was almost empty! And Linus was still eating!!! I also discovered that he likes the turkey BN food. I haven't tried it with his medicine yet, but he seemed pretty keen on it.
On you organ days, do you feed a whole meal of just liver and other organs, or do you have some other meat mixed in there? My kitties really like mom's famous stew, but I tend to see it again if I don't add at least a little meat in with it.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 10, 2010 22:37:06 GMT -5
For bone-in meats I use chicken, turkey, Cornish game hen, mice, and rabbit, as well as occasionally quail, partridge, and duck. Sometimes I have to buy Bravo!, Primal, or Nature's Variety commercial raw to fill those niches, when I can't find other sources, or have to make a Hare-Today order.
On organ day, I feed a whole meal of liver/organ. Elsie (cat) gets a small portion of organ with muscle meat. Ferrets need lots more organ than cats do, so making a full meal of it makes sense. My Morgan and Diesel both will eat organs whole with no issue. For Pilot and Tank, I blend it with a bit of plain yogurt or Kefir, which helps to pre-digest the organ so that it causes less tummy upset. This works for the cat, too, and they never have problems with organ coming back up with the addition of the yogurt.
That's definitely a shock with Linus!! I'm so pleased to hear! I hope he accepts his medicine in the BN turkey better, too. I'm so happy he's found something he really likes!
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Post by catznfertz on Mar 11, 2010 15:22:44 GMT -5
Do your kids eat turkey leg bones? Or just necks and ribs, etc? The only turkey I can get around here that is not enhanced is drumsticks and wings. I mostly just get drums since they are much easier to debone. Maybe if you bash them up really good...? Otherwise, sounds like a lot of chicken and duck for my guys. I do feed a lot of cornish game hen, but you can't really call that a different bird. I'd love to be able to feed whole prey, but with 11 obligate carnivores in the house, I'd be bankrupt pretty quick! Since everything seems to be going so well, I have decided that I will donate the remainder of my kibble to a local animal shelter, hopefully this weekend or sometime soon. At this point, I figure even if my guys NEVER graduate to whole chunks and bones, they will still be getting a heck of a lot better diet than that junk, just eating ground up meat/bones/organs. I guess a lot of people feed that way exclusively, so I can feel pretty good about that. I have cut Linus down to just one dose of pred per day, instead of two, and so far he seems to be doing well. This morning for breakfast, he actually got himself out of bed and came downstairs for grub! Sounds ridiculous, but for us that's a real breakthrough. He's been chowing down pretty good on chicken, pork, AND turkey. This evening I have a date with my meat grinder and some ducks.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 11, 2010 19:00:59 GMT -5
Why are you cutting Linus's medications? Ferrets with insulinoma do much better on two doses a day. One dose simply doesn't last long enough and can create dangerous drops and spikes in sugar levels after the medication wears off. Tests have proven preds really only last in the system for 8-12 hours, so that would leave a large chunk of time unprotected. Even if you lower the dose, keep it split into two doses per day. This will keep him at the great stable level he's at. Is this at the vet's recommendation? Because I'd strongly advise against it.
My kids will eat the ends of turkey leg bones but not the whole thing. If you smash them up, though, there's no problem, and you can always grind them because like you said, your grind is much better than kibble!
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Post by catznfertz on Mar 12, 2010 17:49:37 GMT -5
The vet said to start him out at twice a day, and if he does well to drop it down to once a day. She said it was best to keep them at the lowest effective dose. I've only been dosing him once a day for about the past 3 days, and so far he seems to be doing great. He's actually eager to eat, and seems to be getting around pretty well, if a little stiff sometimes. I will call the vet next week and ask again, and of course if he has any problems at all I can always bump him back up to twice a day. I started re-introducing duck again last night, and I don't think it will be a problem either. They all had a taste from the spoon of straight duck, and they seemed to like it pretty well, but I'm going to introduce it gradually over several days anyway, just to make sure they're eating plenty of it. I think the problem I had last time was that they liked it OK from the spoon, but weren't comfortable eating it as a whole meal. Can your kids eat all the bones from a duck too? My cats for the most part do pretty well with chicken bones, but anything bigger than duck ribs they just leave. Probably because they don't really care for duck that much... I have seen Pipsqueak chow down on a whole pork rib, but for the most part I try to keep their bones pretty small for the sake of the rest of the crew. I have never seen a ferret eat any bone, except for the little chunks of CGH ribs that Pigpen eats, so I have a hard time imagining a little 2 lb critter mowing through a drumstick. I'm sure it can be done, but I think I'm probably a ways from having to worry about that. Most of my guys still spit out anything bigger than about half a pea!
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Post by spiritualtramp on Mar 13, 2010 11:32:57 GMT -5
Lowest dose possible is always better as pred can wreak havoc after prolonged use, but all I've read and heard from vets indicates two small doses a day are better than one larger one. I would call and ask if you can split the lowest effective dose into two doses per day, it will be less per dose and will keep him stabler for longer. I'm glad he's doing so well though and is eager to eat. He was having quite a rough time there for a bit.
My kids all eat duck bones no problem. Cats are picky I have noticed about bone, and since they need far less of it, tend to just stick to the smaller, softer bones. But I have seen my ferret plow through even the most obtuse-seeming bones! Scapulas are the most surprising to me, but trust me when I say that your ferrets will get there, and some days you will be utterly shocked at what they leave (or don't leave) behind!
Are they eating small bones consistently? I would maybe try wingtips or something for a couple days to get them crunching.
Hope the duck goes over well! I am sure it will. They are far more ready now than they were before, that is obvious.
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Post by catznfertz on Mar 14, 2010 0:33:05 GMT -5
I have only been offering chunks of game hen ribs here and there, but not consistently. So far Pigpen is the only taker on those. The rest are still at the point where they will spit something out rather that chew it. I will be ordering another plat for my grinder that has large holes for chunking meat (and bone) so hopefully they will get the hang of it. I wanted to get them introduced to variety first, but it looks like we are accomplishing that quite well.
We are already at more than half duck, and they seem to like it pretty well. I think the stuff is pretty nasty myself, since it's like 90% fat and when I warm it in hot water it all turns to slimy grease. I'm typically not too squeamish about raw meat, but this stuff kinda squicks me out!
Once we get fully introduced to duck, the next step will be to get used to chunks. This is the part I'm kind of dreading, since it's so time consuming to cut up teeny tiny pieces, then tiny pieces, then small pieces, etc. Hopefully that new grinder plat will help with that.
Except for the big batch of pork I made a while back, everything I have fed has been run thru the coarsest plate I now have. It's definitely an improvement over the smooth pureed stuff they used to get, but they can still get most of it down without really chewing on anything.
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