abandoned baby mice

[vkp23]

My mouse mother is not a very good mother! she left one of her baby's out to freeze to death yesterday (didn't notice til it was dead) and today she ate one. took the babies away today see these guys were SUPPOSED to make up the females for my breeding stock. I raised rats before but never had a problem like this come up. I got kitten milk and tried that. they wouldn't have it. Tried mixing a little bottled water in it to dilute it as suggested and fed with a paint brush. Barely got any in them. I know to wipe them to make them potty and all, but does any one have any suggestions on how to get them to eat? Or should I just co2 them and freeze them for the ferrets for later?

[Heather]

I"m no expert by any means but I've found that even when the momma doesn't make all the right decisions she's the best to look after her little ones. I've found that babies that are left out to die and even some that are eaten are often not going to make it anyway. I leave my mousies to run their litters (is that what they're called ) as they see fit. If momma makes a habit out of turning her babies into protein sources then she becomes dinner for my furbabies. That's just me though. I hope that someone finds a solution for you. Candace keeps pet mousies, maybe she can help you with this
ciao

[goingpostal]

Are they pinkies? If they aren't eating on their own I would just co2 them and don't breed that female again. Unless this is her first litter, I give mine at least 2 chances, if they keep killing most of the litter they get fed off.

[vkp23]

I gave them back to the mother and hawk eyed them for a couple hours. She really is a sorry mother. I mean, I don't know if this is just how mice run things but I know rats are never as careless a mother this mouse is. She did feed and bathe them for short intermediate 5 min sessions. But I figure if I can keep an eye on them and see if she can get them past the hardest first two week til they open their eyes. I KNOW at that point I can get them to eat kitten milk as they will start eating other foods as well. As long as she can half A** it til then I think they'll be ok. This was her first litter but I'm not sure yet if I trust her to have another litter. If I decide she isn't trust worthy(will depend on how she finishes out this litter) then I'll co2 her and freeze her. I'm not keeping worthless mouse mothers as my breeding stock. And she like isn't keeping them together drags them around while they are attached leaves them where ever they fall off and if I don't gather them up in one spot they would be left to die cause she doesn't care. doesn't bother her one bit to just leave them to die. NEVER had a rat that acted like this. All my rat mommies were wonderful mommies.

[Heather]

Mouse mommies are lousy mommies as far as I can tell. Either that or all my mousies are the same way. Some mommas are better but most look after their little ones the same way. I usually have a couple of mommas who are all busy with little ones at the same time, so if little ones get dragged away from the nest another momma will pick them up and nurse them
ciao

[vkp23]

Yeah I was told they do better in brooding groups. I had bought what we (the pet store people and I) thought was another pregnant female, but a couple days after I got home I noticed that it is in fact a male. Soooo.....I guess I'm just gonna have to keep an eye on these guys till they are old enough to do some eating on their own.

[goingpostal]

To be honest, when my mice have babies, I check to see they are there to write the date down and don't mess with them at all for usually at least a week. Either they are going to be a good mom or not, but me messing with them is just going to stress out the mom. Did she make a nest? All of mine have nice stuff to chew up to make one and a completely covered baby area and plenty of privacy.

[candiceboggs]

Jan 23, 2011 19:40:57 GMT -5 vkp23 said:

My mouse mother is not a very good mother! she left one of her baby's out to freeze to death yesterday (didn't notice til it was dead) and today she ate one. took the babies away today see these guys were SUPPOSED to make up the females for my breeding stock. I raised rats before but never had a problem like this come up. I got kitten milk and tried that. they wouldn't have it. Tried mixing a little bottled water in it to dilute it as suggested and fed with a paint brush. Barely got any in them. I know to wipe them to make them potty and all, but does any one have any suggestions on how to get them to eat? Or should I just co2 them and freeze them for the ferrets for later?

Hi vkp23.

First - where did you source your mice from for breeding? If you're going to breed you need to check for healthy stock. Unhealthy stock begets unhealthy stock - feeder mice kept in colonies and allowed to reproduce in the oft filthy normal pet store tanks are a breeding ground for disease.

You can pick out a healthy looking mouse by making sure the fur doesn't look ruffled, the eyes and nose are CLEAN and CLEAR (no discharge) and the mouse does not have any cuts, lesions, or bumps when you examine it. Check for anything looking odd on the tail as well.

EXTREMELY important - hold the mouse's tummy to your ear and listen for a wheezy noise or excessive gurgling (heart trouble and respiratory trouble). Do the same with your ear and by the mouse's mouth.

Most mice are wonderful parents - but mice and rats DO cannibalize their babies when they are unhealthy. Don't think they're bad parents, if they put them off to the side there IS something wrong with the mouse pup, and even if someone tries to hand-rear it to keep for a pet, it will usually die in a couple months or less. The mouse knows there's something internally not quite right.

It's normal for them to eat them. If they do it all the time, I don't blame the mother. I blame the genetics. The mouse is probably not healthy.

I hope this helps. I can give you tips on sourcing healthy feeder mice, though you won't get any from reputable pet breeders since you're breeding feeder mice.

[vkp23]

Yeah I didn't mess with them at all and she had started doing that junk. So it wasn't because I touched them. I didn't touch them until after I noticed she was leaving them every where and then ate one. And when I say leaving them every where, I don't mean she actually moved them. What she's doing is, when she decided she's done feeding them she doesn't encourage them to let go (like I've seem rats do) she just runs off trailing babies behind her. I find it hard to believe the babies are weak due to the fact of how long they hold on. I could be wrong though. They usually end up on the other side of the cage because that's where they can't hold on any more and fall off. And then she doesn't bother to take them back. It's like she's stupid or something or doesn't care. She doesn't care if I touch them, doesn't seem to notice as long as I don't touch her. I have them in the bathroom right now and put a lamp over the cage so if she trials any to the other side of the cage they wont freeze, I peek in the box to see if any are in the middle of the cage when ever I go to the bathroom and if there are any out of the nest I put them back in the nest. She's doing much better now except for not noticing her babies are being drug all over the place. I even sat for like a couple hours really still and watched her how she's doing this. She literally does not care and doesn't bother to take them back to the nest, even if it's a "well it may take her a while til she notices", NOPE. Watched her for a couple hours, even during her taking a nap and waking back up. She ate went to the nest fed for a while then ran out of the nest dragging more babies out. I know this much. I'm not breeding her again until I have a couple more females to breed at the same time so they can co-parent. I don't think she's good enough to do it on her own.

ETA: I did give her a nest box and nesting material. She did make a nice nest but doesn't care about keeping them in there. Also, I did check for health and even asked who their supplier is. It's someone local and not from any of the animal farms known to breed inbred or sick animals.

[candiceboggs]

By checking her health, do you mean you inspected her and listened to her breathing? The respiratory/heart problems are the biggest thing to check for. There are some things you just cannot plan for though, such as her apparent retardation.

It sounds to me that she may not be mentally all there. If that's not an explanation, the only thing that makes sense besides is that this is her first litter, and some mice and rats are very confused the first time around. I personally would not breed her again to find out, even if she has other girls to help her she can and will produce other mentally/physically unsound little mice that will either not make good breeding stock or that will end up being eaten by her. The eating happens and it will happen with other good mommies you get in the future, it's not usually so much a lack of protein as them just cleaning up when there's a problem. Nature's recycling services...bleh. If you are worried about lack of protein you can give your mice some live crickets occasionally - these are very nutritious, great exercise, and they love to kill and eat them. Another option is dog kibble occasionally as treats.

By the way, it's best not to believe what pet store employees tell you about where they source their animals. And they really don't care about the feeders. They probably told you it was a local feeder breeder (those do exist but unless you buy from a local rinky-dink pet shop it's unusual that they have a local supplier, I did know one lady who did it), when in reality it's a rodent mill. Such a vast majority of rodents come from rodent mills it's staggering.

There are local rodent mills out there, and some pet stores craftily tell you they got the animals from "a local breeder". One of the PetSmart's here sources their rodents from one of these "local breeders", so they said, "Barney's", a huge mill. Another one sources from "African NW" - a mill that mass breeds everything from rodents to chinchillas to parrots, both places right here in Oregon and Washington.

[vkp23]

As for looking for health I actually didn't know about listening to the breathing (I was also worried I would get bitten as past experience with mice left me chewed up before) But I checked all the other outer indicators. (coat, tail, ears, eyes, nose and injury) These were SUPPOSED to be "fancy" mice. Or pet mice. I didn't get them from the feeder tank. However, I know that doesn't mean they were not mill animals. They gave me a first and last name to the breeder but I can't remember what his name was. I should call back and ask and look this guy up. IDK though, it was a $4 mouse. IDK if all that is worth it for an animal I can't get my money back on any way. IDK once I get the babies to a point they are more able to care for themselves, I'll figure what to do with her. But I do think it's either that this is her first litter or the motor is running but no one is behind the wheel. And I don't think it's a lack of protein either. I feed her left over Marshall's ferret kibble along with dried fruits and veggies, and things like dried corn and oats etc.

[candiceboggs]

The mice I've bought from a pet store (PetSmart) were African NW and Fancy Mice, out of the entire litter of girls every single one died (with the exception of one that was inherently aggressive and I took back, she probably died too though) except for Mirabel, and I have to keep her alive with meds twice a day. The others all died within three months, of mycoplasma. I can go into pet stores now and point out all the ones with mycoplasma every time, it's so prevalent. They're usually hunched over, eyes closed, and breathing rapidly looking uncomfortable because their sides are moving so fast (abnormally fast, it looks almost like a rapid heartbeat in the side). Early on you might not be able to tell when purchasing which is why it's best to hold the underside of the mouse to your ear and listen by their mouth too.

If you get them at a young age you shouldn't get bit, and even if you do, it's not much to shake a feather at as even if they bite down hard it's just a pin-prick of blood. I have only ever been bit like that by wild mice I hand-reared (set them free, couldn't tame them, saved them from rat poison). The Fancies may nibble you but the younger you have them and the more constantly you handle them they do it less and less. Especially if you offer them treats a lot, they'll associate you with good things.

The ferret kibble might be a little too high in protein, usually dog kibble is a safer bet. But then Marshall's is crap so who knows.

[vkp23]

Yeah that's why I was giving them the Marshall's instead of the Mazuri. Way more grains in it. And I try not to give them a whole lot if. Just kinda like a filler. That made me LOL though.