Xeopse's Switching Thread/Sherrylynne

[Heather]

Name: Jacqueline
HF Forum Username: xeopse

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? I started feeding my own dog raw in 2008, and all carnivores should be raw fed. I had 3 dogs adn 2 cats raw fed although the cats were picky... the dogs eat anything!

2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.

I guess partially switch - I really love rats, mice, rabbits etc so feeding with the head on will both me. I can't do the live feeding. I take care of WAY too many pocket pets at work to be able to do that and not be bothered by it. Frozen is fine, that's what I've been feeding for 2 years. I currently feed frankenprey and some legs with fur and hooves on it as well for the dog. I have a freezer full of quails, rabbit, chicken, turkey, beef hearts and livers, chicken livers, turkey livers, turkey and chicken gizzards, turkey tails and necks, etc. etc all waiting just for the ferrets in the freezer for when they're ready.

3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?

I'm a double vet science major, and I know about the marketing ploys first hand for pet nutrition companies. It's a joke. The animals deserve better. Ferrets, cats, dogs are carnivores and should be fed as such.

4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?

Yes.

5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight?

Five - all spayed females, born within 3 days of each other (3 are sisters I'm assuming since they have the same date) in October, 2009. One is descented, the others are not. Lulabelle, Delphine, Cidalia, Odette, and Persephone. UNDERWEIGHT. They were research ferrets, and are tiny petite little girls. Only one (Persephone) is decent weight. She looks huge compared to the rest.

6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc)

Ugh. They are on Lab Diet since that's what they were fed at teh research lab. I've been afraid to switch them because of all the moving, overstimulation, new toys, new smells, new cages, etc and din't want htem to lose any more weight. I want them off of it ASAP.

7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?

I fasted them a few hours before putting a thawed out and warm chicken thigh in their cage. No interest. Even put some feretone oil since they love that to bits. No interest. Tried again another day with a chicken drumstick and no interest.

8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?

I'd really like to skip soupee if possible, it seems like a huge time constraint which I don't really have. If ground meats/organs/bones are an option i have plenty of sources for that.

9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?

Every day, I'm 23 - are you kidding me! What kid my age isn't practically attached to this?

10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).

I'm at work so I can't now, but I have lots of pictures of them up under ferret introductions and pictures!


Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (sherrylynne) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey.
ciao

[sherrylynne]

Hello there! I'm Sherrylynne, and I'll be your mentor for their switch
First, a little about me. I'm 51, and have my own housecleaning business here in Calgary Alberta. I have 4 cats, ranging in age from 6yrs, to 17(only one would eat raw, unfortunately :. I also have 9 ferrets. Boris and Vincent came first, two brothers, a sable and albino. Then Sinnead. I got her when she was 2. She's now 5, and adrenal. She's on lupron, and I've decided against surgery for her.
After that came my first deaf ferret, Lucrezia. A marked DEW. Then two foster ferrets, whom we fell in love with and adopted- Zeus and Athena, both two years old at that time. Also both adrenal, and on lupron.
After that, a little abused ferret we called Willow. She was the worst fear biter I've had, although now she's becoming a sweetie . Then, Emily. 1 month younger than Willow, and those two have bonded strongly. She's the only one Willow wasn't terrified of.Suki is the last one, I swear! She was a little 8 month old darling the pet store was having a hard time selling, so were getting ready to send her back!
While transitioning the first four, Boris was my hold out. EVERYTHING I gave him was poison, in his mind . Worst little drama queen I've seen yet . Twisting to get away, gagging, retching- he did all of it! Then one day- he ate it! Every single piece on the plate ! Those four haven't looked back. Although Boris would still be a kibble head if I let him.
The next two for transitioning were the fosters. Until we adopted them, I could only supplement with raw. So in order not to cause unnecessary tummy upsets(mixing kibble and raw too closely can cause some problems- more about that later), I'd give them raw one day, and kibble on a different day. So, by the time we adopted, they had no problem with 100% raw diet.
With Willow, I brought her home, and she flatly refused to eat the totally ferret kibble, so I went back to the pet store and got her a small bag of the crap they were feeding them there, and brought it home. I tried to give her some, but she just upset the dish. So- I tried her with some chicken breast. She ate it up! Hasn't had kibble since . Emily came to us as a raw fed ferret, so no issues there. Suki was another kibble head, but caging her in the daytime with Miss Emily showed her how to eat raw.
That's me and mine in a nutshell

The reason I started looking a raw feeding was something my vet said to me. I was, at the time, giving them small pieces of fruit for treats. She told me that was VERY bad for them, and in fact, some studies have started to link early feeding of sugars with insulinoma later in life. So- I started thinking. Kibbles are full of carbs. It's all those grains/veg/fruits in them. Those are converted to sugars by the body. To me then, sugar= potential insulinoma.
So, I started checking out various diets. I had no idea what an obligate carnivore was at the time. I found out! Not much wonder there was soooo much poop in the box! I may as well have been tossing my money in there. They can't process anything that's not meat based! So I feed meat
Their fur is softer, their energy levels are amazing- no mad rushes then crashing. Even my three year old's teeth are amazing. No plaque whatsoever Healing is faster, and if they do get ill, they have more reserves to rely on than when they were just kibble fed!
And there is a LOT LESS POOP!!!! Yay!
I'm looking forward to helping your little ones get on a much healthier diet, and having fun while we're at it ;D

[xeopse]

Alright, so I'm sorry it's been a week since you sent me this link. I started school, and our finances have crashed to rock bottom (like -$9 in the bank rock bottom) soooo we are in midst of tryin to pick ourselves back up while I'm in school.

I went to two local pet supply stores last week while I was near them. One has Stella & Chewies, Nature's Variety, and a couple others. The other only has nature's variety rabbit patties. I think I might skip all of it and just get ground meats from my suppliers and make it into soupie.

Start with chicken first? My dog is rawfeed, has been since 2008 and I started her with chicken. Is there something that ferrets find more attractive than chicken? I know rabbit is a personal favorite for others that do whole prey, but baby steps here... these guys have so far rejected the chicken thighs and wings I've put out.

BTW - to switch their kibble to something "better" during the transistion I was looking at EVO cat and ferret... almost no difference except the $5 more a bag for ferrets. Is it really worth it? It's $20 for a 7 lb bag of EVO cat/kitten here, so it's already expensive enough.

How long do I fast the ferrets before feeding them raw - so they're hungry enough to try it? And how do you know with so many ferrets that they are all eating? Or did you seperate them at first? I have a couple that I absolutely must keep weight on, so I need ot know they're eating well.

And how big is your feeding den? I have five little carpet sharks to feed

[sherrylynne]

Ok, first of all, I started mine with soup. In no way, shape, or form were they eating that other stuff! What you will likely wind up doing is removing the kibble for at least 4-5 hours. I took mine out overnight. You want them to have an edge to their appetites, but not to go without food for too long. Ferrets can also develop hepatic lipidosis, the same as cats.
Get a couple of chicken thighs, and puree them, adding enough water to make it soupy. You can freeze it in ice cube trays, and for now, just defrost one cube at a time. What we want to do is get them used to the taste of it first.
Pick your victim, and offer them some off your finger at first, to see if they'll try it on their own. If not, dab some on the end of their noses, so they have to lick it off, and get a taste of it. I had to scruff a couple of mine to even be able to do this!
You will most likely get the following reactions: "Mmm- this stuff is ok!" If they don't seem to have a problem with it, then offer it from a spoon, then the dish.
What's most likely going to happen, though, is spitting, gagging, retching, head tossing, twisting, etc Persevere. They've imprinted on the kibbles, and honestly consider everything else to be poison.
You may have to separate later on, but right now, we won't worry about it. Do this dabbing until they willingly(or even not so willingly) take it from your finger. That's when you'll move to the spoon. Keep the sessions short and sweet. Better to do this more often, than one long session, which will be tiring for both of you. Just have the dish handy, and when one runs by, scoop them up and offer it, dabbing it if you need to.
When they go back into their cage, give them their kibble back then. Remove it a couple hours before the next soupie session again.
And as for the cat/ferret kibble? There's really not enough of a difference in the formula's to worry about. Use the cat/kitten one for them. With that, you'll have to do a slow switch, or their tummies will likely get upset. In fact, you'd almost be further ahead to just keep them on what they are eating now, and switch directly to raw. Because a kibble switch can take a few weeks.

[xeopse]

THEY ARE EATING SOUPIE!!!

I left whatever of their dry food overnight, most of which was gone by the time I woke up this morning. I had some things to do around the house, so I thawed out two chicken quarters, some chicken livers, some chicken hearts, and got two eggs ready. When everything was thawed enough to cut through I made two different batches to see what they'd like: 1 chicken quarter, 1 whole egg (plus a little water). The other was 1 chicken quarter, 1 whole egg, 1 liver, 2 hearts.

I offered the plain chicken first and Persephone LOVED it. She shoved her whole head right in and pushed others out of the way. While this is FANTASTIC it's also not very good because Persephone is the one I'm worried least about =( She is the heaviest and strongest one by far. The rest are so tiny and frail. Delphine, Odette, and Cidalia all ate some but were not thrilled. Lulabelle is not happy at all =( She doesn't wretch or anything but she is not happy. However, while the other 4 were playing in their pen I worked with her a little longer. She will take a couple licks from a spoon, or from the bowl. I put some of her kibble in the spoon on top of the soupie so it smelled like her food but was mostly soupie. She was interested until she realized it doesn't taste like her food.

Also - just exactly how bad is their eyesight? I put things right in front of Lulabelle and she never even notices them. =/

[sherrylynne]

That's great that they have taken soup! Major first step in a diet switch Keep working with them with the soup, til they are taking it willingly. It also gives you a really good one on one bonding time with them.
As for their eyesight? It's generally believed ferrets can only see clearly in front of them for maybe two feet. Peripheral vision is excellent, though.
As for not seeing it right in front of her? Sounds like mine I really do think they have trouble seeing anything directly in front, especially since they hunt more with their noses than their eyes.
Although I have put meat down in front, and had them looking all over for it desperately, even to the extent of stepping on it, and still not finding it

[xeopse]

So soupie has come along well. I separated Lulabelle from the group originally because she was having green poop (there is nothing green for her to have eaten so I was worried she was actually sick) and put her in the top part of the cage away from everyone else. The next day I put Odette in there with her to a) keep her company, and b) to show her how to eat raw since I watched her eating it with gusto earlier. It worked!

I kept the two different soupies in the bottom cage with Persephone because she is a PIG and actually prefers the raw to the kibble after only a day. Delphine eats it only a bit, as does Cidalia who is the least enthusiastic about the whole thing. There is no fighting, flailing, or gagging... just doesn't eat more than a lick or two. I stopped putting the spoon in their faces.

Last night was day #2 of soupie, so I left it overnight with them. MOST of it is gone in both cages - only a few globs left. I gave them a small palmful of kibble in each kibble which everyone but Persephone ate like they were starved.

I am making a new batch of soupie now =) Also, the green poop must have been a fluke because she hasn't had it since that one time. I read up on ECE, but I imagine that green poop would persist if she was really sick.

I'm glad that their eyesight is fairly normal for a ferret.... I was worried they were "special" since they really weren't getting it. That makes sense though about the peripheral because they just trample everything. No grace!

[sherrylynne]

Sounds like normal ferrets I'm glad the soup is going over fairly well!
Ok, since Persephone is doing so well, do you want to take her a bit faster, or keep her on a level with the others? Even with just 4 at the time, I found it easier to keep them all on the same page, as it were. But your decision.
If they are only taking a lick or two, and nothing else til the kibble comes in, you may have to spoon feed those ones a bit longer. Otherwise, they'll just wind up holding out for kibble, and nothing else. The idea is to get their tummies filled with the soup, and for them to actually get used to making a meal out of it.
As for the green poop, that's not that uncommon either, when they are presented with something totally new. It can simply be an indicator of some sort of stress. And like people, some ferrets stress about anything and everything, some don't at all. At least it was gone quickly.
Also, don't be too surprised at the different textures/consistencies of their stool on raw. With the soup, and no bone yet, their stool will likely become somewhat loose. Simply add in some powdered eggshell(1/2 tsp per 8 oz of meat), or 1/2 tsp of pumpkin per ferret per day for a while, if it becomes too loose for any length of time.

[xeopse]

I have been just throwing a 2 whole eggs in their daily soupie, shell and all. Should I still get eggshell powder?

Because I don't really have a way to confine the ferrets yet in the loft (it's just basically a big open area) I haven't done one-on-one feeding with them. I separated the two on top - I paired Lulabelle with someone that took to raw right away, which was Odette I believe and now she's just as much of a pig as Persephone is. They eat little chunks and everything. So I put one of the worse-off eaters in with Lulabelle, which is now Cidalia. Cidalia is still the only one that holds out kibble - even this morning she wouldn't even think about food until I put a few bits of kibble in the spoon with the soupie. What's odd is that she pretty much ate around the kibble! She ate so much soupie (only from the spoon) that she eventually went and laid down to go into a food coma. I have successfully watched everyone else pig out on soupie using a bowl though!

Also, Persephone is eating a LOT. Like, she has gained so much weight in the past 3 days that I am kind of worried. She is huge. She eats like a pig, and just keeps eating. I actually have to feed everyone in two bowls because Persephone doesn't move over for any of them! She is probably twice the size of a couple of her cagemates now. Should I be worried? She is quite active, no stomach distension or anything, but I can't tell the difference between whose stools are whose, not that it would really matter because they're all goign to be soft now anyways. If I didn't know any better I'd think she was a boy

A lot of urine production in the litterboxes now. Like, more than ever. I understand it's because of the increased water intake with the soupie, but does this eventually go away? I just can't believe how much they are peeing.

[sherrylynne]

So far, so good, by the sounds of it Yeah, it's fairly normal for them to start to pig out. It'll probably last for 3-4 months, all told. Don't forget- ferrets just in the process of switching have a tremendous appetite, once they are off the kibble. Add in the fact the winter appetites are kicking in, and you've got some real pigs
When I was switching mine, I started in Aug. one year. They were fully raw(but not balanced yet) after about 6 weeks. That's when the appetites went into overdrive. Between 4 of them, they were downing about 14oz per MEAL!!!
So, if she's behaving normally, and doesn't have any distention, don't worry about it. She'll calm down. Expect all of them to go through this to one extent or another
That's great about Cidalia! She evidently still needs the smell of kibble to trigger "food" in her mind. That's ok. Just cut down on the number of kibbles you are putting on her soup every few days til there's only one or two there. Then try it without. Sometimes switching them is more a matter of tricking them than anything else!
Ok, for Persephone(love that name, by the way!), and Odette, you can try increasing the size of the chunks, by just a wee bit. Get them used to a bit of a larger feel in their mouths.
Almost forgot! The urinating will slow down somewhat after a while, once their bodies adapt to the extra moisture. But they will still continue to pee a lot more than they did on kibble.
Think about it from your own perspective. If you suddenly started drinking 8 glasses of water a day- you'd be continuously running to the bathroom. But after a few weeks, your body adapts. You'd still void more than someone who doesn't drink enough, but a lot less than at the beginning

[xeopse]

Okay, so what about the eggshell? Do I need to buy it powdered or just use the whole egg is okay?

Cidalia has officially gone a whole day without ANY kibble. Now the problem I have is this -

A looooong time ago, when my parents used to feed Nutro dog food they got a feeding tray as a free gift, and when I came down to visit one time they asked if I wanted it. It is a plastic tray with three lipped sides on it so food doesn't fall out through the back or sides but pets can walk up to the two bowls that are within the tray. The two bowls pop out for easy refill, one is supposed to be food and the other for water but I've been using them for food.

Now, the tray is pretty big, like over a foot long so it's just big enough for 5 ferrets to line up next to each other and eat BUT Persephone has gained so much weight now and of course no one lines up nice and neat, which I think intimidates the other ferrets that aren't as aggressive as Persephone. Lulabelle surprisingly doesn't care, she just walks over the other ferrets if she's hungry, as does Persephone. The three are much more timid when it comes to feeding though, and they won't eat then unless the other two are gone OR I spoon feed them which is obviously a disaster since I can't hold three spoons at the same time. Get another bowl? Or will they eventually figure it out and get along once the novelty of eating yummy food wears off? Or is there some sort of hierarchy in ferrets that shows who is lesser in the group and that's why the other three are always waiting? Coincidently, the other three are actual sisters while Persephone and Lulabelle are not - they were both born one day ahead, and one day after the litter of sisters.

Or maybe I should ask, is there an easier way of feeding the soupie to the 5?

I can't believe how much they are eating, btw - just overnight they've gone through and eaten everything I've put in there. They've eaten a whole ice cube tray full of soupie and then some, when before they would only eat a little bit.

[sherrylynne]

Sorry- totally forgot about the eggshell! I powder mine with a coffee grinder I keep separate for that purpose. I can't even imagine what caffeinated ferrets would be like
Mine do have a heirarchy for eating. At least with the one group. I use two dishes for them, just out in the cage. A couple gather around one dish, the rest around the other(5 ferrets in total in that grouping). If one of the females tries to eat out of the dish the alpha is eating from, she'll be chased away. Can you use the dishes without the tray?
As for the amounts, they've finally discovered this stuff is good! That's great. And yes- they'll eat you out of house and home for anywhere from 2-4 months. When ferrets are first switched, it's like their bodies go into overdrive, trying to get as much nutrition as they can. Combine that with winter appetites, and you've got 5 VERY hungry ferrets
It will slow down.
Since they are all taking to the soup so well, it's time to step it up now. Mince up some meat, about the size of ground, and mix that in well with the puree, see how they do with it.

[xeopse]

Since my blender is pretty crappy, it's all pretty chunked up here and there. One way or another they have all eaten little chunks. I tried to mix chicken heart in there - they wouldn't touch it though =( So, just keeping with the chicken/egg and shell/water mix for now.

Leia is happy, she knows whatever the girls don't eat she gets to eat no matter how stinky or gross it is.

The girls have started dragging chunks around only eating about half then forgetting it. They don't even try to hide it. I what was left of a chicken leg after stripping it for soupie and someone went and dragged it into hte litter box So I guess they were at least somewhat interested in it.

[sherrylynne]

If you want, you can start trying a feeding den, or two. It does help control the stashing, but it does take a bit of work so they know that's where they are supposed to eat. Here's a link on that:
holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=enricharticle&action=display&thread=4020
And since they are eating "chunky" soup now, try making it a bit less soupy, and a little more chunky- if you get what I mean.
The idea is to reduce the amount of liquid in what they are getting, til it's straight ground texture.

[xeopse]

Well the stubbornness with soupie ended fairly quickly - they all love it so much! In fact, the issues with who eats where is no longer an issue as they've come up with their own solution: Three eat from the front of the tray while the other two snake hteir way between the litter box and the feeding tray and eat from above the tray. I tried feeding them in more bowls, but they insisted eating it this way.... whatever, at least they're eating!

Around when do I start introducing new things? How do I introduce bones? When I do introduce new meats?

Because of Leia, I have a lot of beef, fish and pork (it takes Leia a long time to eat any amount of pork, she gets runny poop from it so I just feed her a bit at a time but it's so cheap and comes in such big portions that it lasts her a long time. Now, can I give this to ferrets or do I stay away from it because obviously ferrets wouldn't be taking a cow down in the wild? Out of curiosity, I wonder if they would eat one that they happened across already dead?

Leia also gets Omega 3 fish oil from Vital Source to balance out that crazy amoutn of Omega 6's in livestock. Do the ferrets need this as well? I haven't tried since I figured ferrets wouldn't really eat fish in the wild, either.