xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Nov 17, 2010 23:49:43 GMT -5
I bolted out of bed two nights ago - middle of the night - and realized I haven't been giving them heart on a regular basis. In fact, it's been a couple of weeks. I immediately went and thawed some out, so they have some in there now. I decided that the 4 girls are getting a few pieces of meat with bone-in hung up on their cage every day and I will give them a teaspoon full or so a night of a whole egg, liver, heart, and kidney blended to puree with some water. Or maybe I will just a make a meal out of it every week, not sure.
Lulabelle's stools are all over the place. If I feed her pork they are very dark and mucousy. If I feed her chicken they are yellowish and seedy. How can I come up with a happy medium here? Is there a picture of "normal" raw fed ferret stool? I know this sounds gross, but I have nothing to compare it to. As it is, I'm just assuming all of my other girls are fine because they aren't acting sick - whether or not they're getting a diet they need I'm totally clueless. They do however eat bone in their meat, but Lulabelle does not - for whatever reason she regressed back to just eating soupie so she's getting that in fear of she starts losing weight again. She just kept hoarding the chunks I was giving her that she was eating for a while. Her soupie has the mixture of organs and heart mixed in there now.
I have 2 cornish game hens in the freezer I'm waiting for them to be able to devour. I'm going to pick up some more stuff or order from haretoday as soon as I can get a better paycheck LOL working part time means I have a craptastic paycheck until after my finals are over, then I can go back to 40 hours a week. Right now I'm skimming by on 30 hours, it's crazy how much 10 hours make a difference.
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 18, 2010 0:49:05 GMT -5
Have you been keeping up with hurricanekatt's IBD thread? I think it's possible that could be Lulabelle's problem. If that is the case, her tummy is likely hurting, which would explain the regression. I've messaged Heather, since she has more experience with this than I do. For now, try giving her a bit of pumpkin with her soups, and give this a read: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=medicine&action=display&thread=5901It's a bit long, but might be worth your while. Here's a "poop chart" from another forum I'm on. You don't have to join up to see it: ferretharmony.com/viewtopic.php?t=1793Can you remind me of what you put in your soup again? If you don't put in eggshell or bonemeal, it might be time to start reintroducing it again.
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Nov 18, 2010 17:17:33 GMT -5
Depending on what I have thawing out for Leia, I will have either:
Some chicken or some pork meat/skin/cartilage as I put everything off the bone Sometimes a whole egg A bit of liver A bit of kidney Now a bit of heart Now about a teaspoon of pumpkin per daily ration I make
I should probably get a kitchen scale, huh? I haven't weighed food in so long for Leia, I guess I got out of practice. I've been going by how much they eat. For the other 4 girls I hang up a 2 drumsticks or wings in their cage, bone and all, for them to devour which usually takes them a couple days to eat almost the entire thing, leaving just a bony nub. When they need more which is a rare thing, I give them some more, or I give them what Lulabelle does not eat. I feed them new food either every night or every morning, then about 12 hours later I heat it back up and stir it up so they arne't picking out their favorites. I still make very chunky soup (big chunks, like over 1" chunks) which they eat all of., usually this is pork. I am thawing out a cornish hen tonight to see how they fare with it, and I will put Lulabelle in with them to see how she does.
I stopped doing eggshell for Lulabelle because her poops were so compacted no matter how little I was giving her and everyone said to lay off it when she was sick last week. Luckily she hasn't had a dry, solid poop since then when I stopped. She has had some bone since then in her meals but lately she has stopped and we needed to regress back to real pureed soupie to eat. She was just hoarding everything else for some reason and not really eating it. She normally eats like a pig and the last couple days she rreally hasn't eaten much unless it's pureed - I was worried at first but she isn't losing weight, so I wondered if maybe she is slowing down because she is finally "full" so to speak?
Her tummy definitely hurts - she is often on her belly. She will run when I take her down the halls for her little "physical therapy" to get her up and moving since she likes to chase my shoes while i walk up and down stairs and a long hallway where nothing else can distract her. Otherwise she is very aimless - she just likes to poke around, lounge, sniff, and casually stroll around. I have never seen her dook or war dance, she never makes noises, and she never runs unless I remove all other distractions ie: taking her out of the loft into our bare hallway where there is nowhere to curl up and sleep, no cubbies to nuzzle into, and nothing to sniff. Sometimes, especially in the beginning she will just lay there before she gets going. When she is in her pen or cage with the otehr girls or by herself she just lays there all day - she never plays with anything unless it's something to be destroyed like Leia's kong she found that day I freaked out about rubber on the other post I put up. Her belly is also VERY full, it is constantly more firm t han anyone's elses stomach but two vets have confirmed - there is nothing wrong with it and the x-rays agree - there is no mass. Her kidneys are large as is her spleen, but it's not THAT large. When I feel her belly I FLIP OUT because I'm so used to animals and bloat, but when I look at her she is not distended. And obviously, if it was bloat, she would be dead already (if ferrets can even have bloat, I have no idea, I don't see why not sine they have intestines too)
I put in a bit of eggshell into Lulabelle's soupie last night, but her stools are still very seedy. I am afraid to put too much in (I just sprinkled a tiny amount in) since I don't know what triggered her to be sick last week. Continue?
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 18, 2010 17:24:12 GMT -5
Can you try making Lulabelle a soup with pork and a bit of beef, or something else, and no chicken? Add in a pinch of eggshell, and her pumpkin. If she does have IBD, it's going to take some fiddling to find something that makes her poopies not too, too bad. Although if it is, they'll likely never be "normal", just "less bad". With the others, definitely start introducing other meats. Have you tried them with a bowl of minced up liver/kidney yet?
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Nov 18, 2010 17:41:37 GMT -5
I will remove the chicken and see if I can get my hands on antoher protein source soon. I won't have my paycheck til tomorrow, so I have to wait until then unfortunately The others will eat liver/kidney/egg pureed but I haven't minced it yet. I really have no idea how to feed it to them, but on a spoon seems to be easiest so I can see who gets what.
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 18, 2010 18:40:55 GMT -5
If you are willing to keep doing that with them, that's fine I just got tired of it after a year of weekly "liver soup"
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Nov 18, 2010 20:15:45 GMT -5
Well the spoon feeding is temporary (oh at least I hope so, for my sanity) to make sure everyone is getting the same thing until they all acclimate to the taste. Eventually I just want to buy it ground up and give them hunks of it a week.
Do you have a schedule to feed it to them? How do you do it - you have multiples too don;t you? How do you know they're all getting their share? And are some worse about it than others? I have one (Odette) that dislikes it, I can't get her to have more than a couple licks.
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 18, 2010 23:24:29 GMT -5
The difference is I have 3 groups, in 3 separate cages . One of my girls is highly territorial, and will try to seriously hurt the 5 who came after her. And one of my boys is adrenal, and one of the smallest ferrets is now petrified of him, since a few days before his lupron is due, he goes after her. So- 3 groups My original 4 were the ones I was hand feeding the soups to. The others weren't so much trouble. I also now feed some commercial raw as well(two of them have decided they are going to refuse bone from meats they don't like, and even with chicken wings, they'll just eat the meat off of them ), so it's not as much of a concern. I will say, the only liver I could get them to accept not in a soup form is chicken. As for who is getting how much, I just kind of keep an eye as to how long they are at the dish.
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 30, 2010 23:10:01 GMT -5
So how is it going? Any updates?
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Dec 8, 2010 11:17:15 GMT -5
Sorry, things have been so crazy. The cage is done now (you'll see a post on that in the general section later *sigh*) but it's the homestretch, school is done on Friday and I'm exhausted.
Lulabelle is doing remarkably well. Her stools are back down to being very small though, so I'm just wondering if maybe that is just her? I hope she doens't have IBD. She is very active and wardanced for the first time a couple weeks, so I know she is feeling better. She actively tries to find me and I occasionally see her try to get into when the others are playing. She also scrambles around on my shoulders before whereas she was too weak to do anythiing but sits there, which she still does sometimes - just sits there limp while I hold her.
Cidalia, Delphine, and Odette still do not have winter weight or fur yet. Is this because they aren't getting enough food? I know Persephone and Lulabelle hog it all, but I do see them eat, and I leave plenty of food in there for them to stash for themselves and enough in the bowl for them to come back to it later. The other two are all fluffy and huge, the other three (the actual 3 sisters) are still the tiniest little things. Not losing weight, but just... petite. Their fur looks greasy I think, too. Genetics? Shouldn't they be putting on weight by now? The other two are twice their size at this point. Should I feed them more?
I still need to get a food scale, but I started measuring in cups of how much they get. On Sundays or Saturdays they get 1 cup for all 5 of them which has chunks of goat meat, chicken liver, chicken heart, beef kidney, some salmon head cut up, and pumpkin. I freeze the soupie into baggies which all have 1 cup inside and then I thaw them overnight the ngiht before I want to feed it. They eat it all up no problem and it's gone within a few hours.
They eat bone very well, however - they've realized that if they pull hard enough they can pull the whole piece off the shower rings =( How do I prevent this? I'm thinking I could drill a hole through the bone and hang the ring through there but I'm not sure if it will crack or break. I'm not too bummed about it though, it works their neck muscles which were way underdeveloped from sitting in a tiny cage at the lab for so long.
They are also eating me out of house and home - everything in gone within a few hours whereas it used to take them days to eat! I am thawing out goat chops right now to feed them whole later - maybe I can progress to bigger pieces which will also help on the stashing.
What bones are too big? I don't want htem to crack their teeth, obviously. So far they've had half a cornish game hen at once, chicken legs, chicken wings, chicken quarters, chicken and turkey necks, chunks of goat meat. Time to move onto something bigger? I have rabbit coming in today or tomorrow plus a few pairs of goat legs - skin, fur, everything. is it okay for them to eat that? The rabbit is skinned because they didn't have any whole prey available, but the goat legs are whole. I got them for Leia to clean her teeth but I wonder if that would be suitable for ferrets? I also have some beef heart, kidneys, livers, lungs, etc all ground up together coming in too which I hope they like.
Also, when I took them out the other day they all had orange-y looking loose stools. Is that blood? I am not sure why they would all have that? Some were worse than others. I suppose I can take each one out one at a time and let them run around the bathroom and wait but that would take forever for all five of them.
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Post by sherrylynne on Dec 8, 2010 20:15:39 GMT -5
Wow They are doing phenomenally well !!! Okay, pumpkin can cause orange stool. Depends on how much they get. Whenever I give pumpkin, if it's beyond a "certain" amount(still no idea what that exact amount is- it seems to change ), they get orange poops. As for the bone, generally if the bone is too dense, they won't eat it anyway. They are smart that way . Personally, I'd start giving them more right now. What you want is for only a very few pieces to be left over when they get their next meal. Their bodies have finally clued into the fact of the nutrition they were missing on their old diets. It will calm down in 2-4 months As for pulling it off the shower rings, not sure what you'd do about that. If there's a joint, you can hook it through that, but that's about all I can think of right now. I'd definitely get them on larger chunks as soon as you can, too. Can you get other meats where you are now? It would also be a good time to get them eating as many different proteins as you can. You know- it's odd. Only four of my nine have gained serious weight. And yours are very young yet- this is their first "real" winter, so next year, it could well be different. Don't forget, not all ferrets get that long, luxurious coat. Some get almost a "seal" type coat. Fur will usually be dense, but not long and thick, if you know what I mean. I'm so glad Lulabelle has come around so much! That's amazing I've got a "noodle- fert" as well. Miss Emily will go completely limp when I pick her up. She looks a lot like Lulabelle, too She's not Waardenburg's, but we do think she had some brain damage done when a kit. Her previous owners accidently shut her in the fridge. They weren't sure how long she was in there. They found her after scouring the entire place for her for quite a while, and checked there as a last ditch effort when one of them remembered being in the fridge shortly after they'd last seen her.
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Dec 10, 2010 0:18:47 GMT -5
OMG I am permanently afraid of that - animals in the fridge, freezer, washer/dryer, dishwasher.... ugh the horror stories Poor baby! How big is big enough? They are eating whole goat chops now. I accidently left one in with the whole bone in over night. I thought it would be too big for them to eat but yep - they ate almost the whole thing and I threw the nub away. They are also eating rabbit parts (skinned) what looks like arms and legs. I am really worried about feeding whole prey like everyone else does with the rats, mice, rabbits, etc. I love all those little guys, I just can't imagine feeding them =/ I can do it without the skin for some reason for rabbits, etc but nobody exactly skins rats/mice so... I dunno what to do. I would love for them to eat whole prey though. I am going to see how they do with the goat legs with the fur/skin on and see if they like it. If they eat it with hte ufr and all then I will re-evaluate myself and see if I could do mice. So sad though =/ At the same time I want what's best for my babies. I am also trying to get them accustomed to eating things while still partially frozen or cold. So far they don't seem to care anymore when it's still chilly - everything before needed to be heated up for them.
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Post by sherrylynne on Dec 10, 2010 11:11:08 GMT -5
Just to let you know- you don't have to feed whole prey! They'll do fine without it I never, ever thought I could do even frozen/thawed whole prey(mice, rats, chicks). And I didn't. For a year When I first "took the plunge" as it were, it really bothered me. But like you, I wanted the best for them. Now? It's not uncommon for me to have adult mice laying out on their cutting board thawing on the counter As far as "large" enough- that is whatever you are comfortable with feeding, what they'll eat, and whether or not there's much left over Do you realize just how far these little ones have come in your care? It's pretty darned amazing Ok, what kinds of meats are they eating now, and how often for each? As in a sample menu. They are doing well enough I think they need to get a bit more "organized" with their diet, so we can make sure they are getting what they need out of it nutritionally.
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Dec 12, 2010 21:11:49 GMT -5
Do you really think they're doing well? Sometimes I worry I'm not doing good enough for them, especially with Lulabelle because her poops are bad again. Other times I get frustrated because I really don't have a whole lot of experience with ferrets and I get paranoid about them getting sick in a few years. They're over a year old now and to me that is still being a baby but I know for them it isn't. I do want them to have the best, it's just that I work with mice/rats/etc on a regular basis and I think people underestimate just how smart they are and what great pets they make - people always think they are ugly and dirty which is so not true! So I always feel a little bad for the small pocket pets because they are treated like garbage just like ferrets are - disposable pets. I am sure someday I'll get over it. In the meantime, they eat:
Goat Chicken Cornish game hen Beef Pork Eggs (haven't tried whole, I just crush up the eggshell with it and mix in with their soupies and chunky soupies) So far they eat their chunky meat cubes + chicken livers + beef kidney + egg + sometimes I put crushed eggshell but haven't been lately
I think you're right about measuring things and starting a schedule. I found a blank notebook the other day that I'm going to start writing what I fed when too. I am just so out of the practice of measuring and everything because Leia is just so easy - I literally throw something on the floor and she eats it based on how much she's burned off within the last couple of days. Once a week she gets a whole kidney and a whole liver, sometimes they alternate weeks, sometimes she gets none at all. I also ordered rabbit tripe (so gross) and goat organs like lungs, spleen, liver, kidney, etc and ground beef organs.
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Post by sherrylynne on Dec 12, 2010 23:13:09 GMT -5
Wow And yes- you are doing such an amazing job with these babies! Never doubt that So, they are eating meat, bone, organ. And they are getting 5 proteins(they need a minimum of 3). I definitely think it's time to get a menu together for them so they get what they need over the course of a week. What I'd like you to do next is set one up based on this pattern: Monday: bone in Tuesday: muscle meats Wed: bone in Thurs: muscle meats Friday: bone in Sat: organ meats/bone in or muscle meats Sunday: soup/bone in Or something along those lines. As long as they are getting at least 4 days/8 meals bone in meats(where they actually eat the bone), 2 days/4 meals muscle meats, one meal a week of organs, other meal of whatever you like. I give whole prey, you can do bone in. Mainly to counteract the effects of the organ meats on their stool. I alternate daily to keep it fresher for them, as they get bored with the same old, same old quite quickly. some alternate with every meal. That's the great thing about this diet- you can switch it up in ways that work not only for them, but for you as well. It's always a good idea to keep soup in their diet on at least a semi regular basis, so they'll accept it when they are ill/injured/ just not feeling well. That way you've got something they'll accept that's easy to eat. As for Lulabelle, what I've been doing with Boris is adding some probiotics to his meat about 30 m- 2 hrs before he eats. Right now, it really seems to be helping him. I also alternate his meats daily where possible. She can also have about 1/2 tsp of pumpkin prior to her meals if she'll take it, or in a wee bit of soup. That will help slow down digestion so she gains more nutrition from her meals, and help with her stool. The probiotic I use right now is Prozyme. Read through hurricanekatt's thread on IBD carefully, and follow that. Obviously you'd have to adapt it to what works for her, but it's got some great info. And if they do get sick a few years down the road, you can rest easy in the fact it's nothing you've done to cause it!!! If anything, the raw diet will give them reserves kibble fed ferrets won't have.
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