uhm... I disagree

[zoologist]

While I realize this is a ferret forum and not a cat forum we all know that they're pretty much alike with some definite differences.

anyway. I am on a cat forum and went into the raw diet section to learn a bit more about cats to consider switching mine over. I know here we say at least 3 different proteins, more is better! So I asked that question on the cat forum and this was the response I got:

More variety is better, of course, but more variety isn't essential. As long as you feed 80-85% meat, 5-10% bone, and 10% organ (half of which must be liver) you could theoretically feed all that from one species. Protein is protein, fat is fat, etc.

hm. So i rebuttled:

I disagree with the protein is protein, fat is fat argument. you get different nutrients from different animals. It would not be wise to feed your cat/dog/ferret chickens every day for their entire life- somewhere they are going to be lacking. it is also a good idea to switch up the types of proteins. for example- fryer chickens have more/less of some nutrients than older chickens or chicks let's say.

(sherry, I gotta thank you for the chicken quote! )

and THEY said:

Again, while more variety is better, plenty of raw feeders (long-term, talking DECADES here) do end up feeding very little variety with great success. Feeding nothing but chicken parts will result in a happy, healthy rawfed cat (certainly MUCH happier and healthier than a kibble-fed cat!). The point is that if inability to provide tons of variety is what is stopping you, don't let it. Your cat WILL do much better on a low-variety raw diet than on a kibble or canned diet, as long as you hit the 80-85/5-10/10% guidelines.

UHM. no?! I disagree with that 100%! especially after what I learned here on this forum! Am I missing something here, or is this person misinformed?

[bluemoose]

Personally I would agree with them that even an all chicken (assuming parts such as bones and organs are included) raw diet is still better than a kibble diet. I mean most people who feed kibble only feed one variety and those are often only made with one or two different meats.

I know many raw feeding dog owners who feed almost exclusively chicken and their dogs still showed huge improvement coming off kibble. My dogs eat chicken about 5 days a week and they're still going strong. I do throw in pork and beef when I can but chicken is much cheaper and imo is fine to feed as a primary protein source. Maybe it's different for cats and ferrets?

I don't agree that protein is protein and they're all the same but I do think dogs/cats/ferrets on a one protein source raw diet are still better off then kibble fed animals.

[zoologist]

oh, don't get me wrong. raw is better than any kibble. I am trying to say that somewhere, some how a nutrient is going to be lacking by feeding ONLY chicken or ONLY beef without any suppliments being put into the food.

raw over kibble all the way. but talking in a raw only sense... as if kibble never existed... that's what I want to know

[bluemoose]

While I do try to feed as much variety to my raw fed pets as possible just to cover my bases (and to make life more interesting for them), I'm not sure there's any concrete evidence that feeding only one protein source will cause a deficit in some nutrient. Excepting of course animals like one day old chicks that are lacking in calcium. As far as I've ever seen, it's just conjecture that feeding a variety of protein sources is more healthy. I could of course be wrong on that point but I've never seen any solid evidence proving anything. Don't black footed-ferrets in the wild eat almost exclusively prairie dogs? Again, I could be completely wrong here.

[Heather]

I'm going to drop in here. If you want to feed raw and get the benefits in the long term you either feed variety or you supplement like crazy, it's as simple as that. This whole idea that you're going to get this to work long term by feeding simply chicken is going to go south eventually. Chicken is sadly lacking as a protein source and for ferrets it's like following Pottages feeding of rabbits as a sole protein to cats (which by the way starved to death....the cruel sods didn't even stop the test once these cats started dying). Look it up, it's sighted by vets as the reason why raw feeding doesn't work. You're right, it's not going to show up in one year, two, maybe even three but it's going to show up eventually, anemia being the key component, low calcium counts...eventually the outside symptoms start to show up, but lets face it by that point in time some of the other damage, the deficiencies in vitamins and minerals are going to be doing their damage. In the long run, as much as I hate kibble and wouldn't advocate it to anyone, in the long run....kibble is better if you're only going to feed a single protein source without tons of supplements. The whole idea about raw feeding is to provide a diet that is better than kibble which is nothing but the garbage left over with a lot of supplements. If all you feed is a single protein source such as chicken.....what are you feeding? Think about it. I don't mean to sound harsh, but the reason why vets don't take us seriously is they get to fix the mistakes we make when we feed raw improperly. The single protein source is probably the biggest mistake we can make. Not all protein is created equal, hence the reason to mix it up .
ciao

[bluemoose]

Most of my experience lies in raw fed dogs and because they're rather different from cats and ferrets my theories may be off. I was always told for dogs that as long as you feed 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other organs, the protein source wasn't too important. I know many raw feeders who feed their dogs almost nothing but chicken and fish oil. Seeing as some of them have been feeding raw for decades, I was pretty willing to take their word for it.

Again, it may be different for ferrets and I do feed my ferrets 5 different whole prey proteins and 3 different raw proteins to be on the safe side but aren't most kibbles made with only one or two protein sources? Maybe chicken is a bad example. I've read on a few sites that mice can be the majority of a whole prey ferret diet. Is this not true?

Edit: Ohhh but the kibble has all the supplements added in. I hadn't thought of that for some reason XD I do see why variety is important which is why I feed my raw fed pets with as much variety as I can I've just always been told (for dogs) that using chicken as the staple protein was fine. Does the need for a daily change in protein sources only apply to cats and ferrets?

[zoologist]

I haven't read into dog raw, but I would definitely think that more variety in a diet would be better than just 1 protein source. I also have a friend (well, her dad) who feeds his mastiff raw chicken... nothing else. I have been biting my tongue because I don't want to lecture him on raw diet. So I can't say about dogs...

[bluemoose]

Most dog raw feeders seem to think primarily chicken (not only chicken but more chicken than any other protein) works fine assuming you are still feeding adequate bone and organ content.
answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Av5rWbmKuKl1hEG_Ee2PsH8AAAAA;_ylv=3?qid=20100615164743AAGqMZZ

I'm starting to think it must be different for cats and ferrets because they have different dietary needs than dogs. So now I'd have to agree with your disagreement on the cat forum But the success of a one protein diet probably also depends on what protein it is. As mentioned on Y!A and by Heather, an all rabbit diet is no good because rabbit is insufficient in taurine. While there probably isn't one perfect protein source, I'm sure some come closer to the mark than others.

[Heather]

Dogs are not any different than cats and ferrets. It was dogs that was my primary introduction with raw many years ago. Many people use chicken and claim that it's the ultimate diet for dogs only because it's easily affordable and accessible and doesn't take much effort. The problem is that now it has become a staple and people think it's ok. If you've noticed there are more and more allergies or sensitivities to this particular protein source. I've don't feed chicken at all to my dog, he won't eat it, nor turkey either. Let's face it and as you've thought about it with cats and ferrets, the greater the variety the less artificial supplementation. Most chicken rarely makes maturity and couldn't walk if it did (think about breast sizes that you see in the market) They are raised in artificial settings under deplorable conditions. I had a huge lecture (informative rather than the bashing type ) given to me by someone who raises chickens. If you look up the age of slaughter (I can't remember off hand) you will find it's in the astounding weeks, not months. If something has been that genetically modified to mass produce within such a short time frame there can be a very short supply of nutrients available. Dogs though not obligate carnivores are still carnivores and their needs are similar to your cats and ferrets.
ciao

[bluemoose]

I can certainly see the rational in feeding a variety of protein sources to dogs as well as ferrets and cats but do dogs need as much variety? Like, should they be eating a different protein source everyday? It's difficult to get meats other than chicken, pork, and beef. Not to mention beef is somewhat expensive.

[rarnold18]

Yes, dogs do need just as much variety, at least 3 protien sources. With our company we offer USDA human grade meats (with the exception of the green tripe and our venison and other "game" type meat, the rabbits and quail are bred and culled by my mother in law but fed the BEST...she's done her research, though the fresh quail eggs are edible because they are comming litterally from the source ;P) that have not been enhanced, no broth, seaweed, sodium or "flavors". Our "complete is just that three + protiens, organs, and bones it consists of gr beef, whole gr chicken , whole gr turkey, tripe, whole gr mackerel, and chicken feet. My mother in law worked with a nutritionist for this mix and her others to make sure that they would be just nutritionally whole.
Our customers consist of people that are owned by cats, dogs, ferrets, a few fish (oscars apparently love beef liver and lung!), and some scalely type critters (baby quail and bunnies). Some are just regular people who are owned by their furbabies and a few are breeders, one of them breeds sheepdogs that she regularly sells her pups for $2000+ and most of her last litter was shipped to people in Sweden, Finland, and Russia!! Her dogs are BEAUTIFUL!!!!

Why did we start feeding raw? We like others hated paying the crazy high rates at the vets office for allergy shots, meds, and other skin treatments... Our family adopted a few giant breeds and with their already short life span we wanted to keep them as healthy as possible and in turn lengthen their life span. We started with high quailty kibbles and then discovered that some of these uber expensive kibbles still had fish products that were treated with ethoxiquin a known carsinogen (cancer causer, please excuse my spelling) then the recalls started because of molds and other contaniments and we pretty much freaked and started looking at a more natural way of feeding our fur babies. We found BARF and Prey model feeding types and were hooked! We worked with a holistic vet and a nutritionist so we could feed our animals properly so that we could obtain optimal health and in turn a longer life span with a better quality of life. Now we have much healthier furbabies. I am no longer spending $200+ a month on rimadyl and allergy meds and shots, my dogs don't need their teeth cleaned, their fur is softer and their skin is no longer flaky and dry.
I feed chicken 3-4 times a week. Then they get pork, beef, turkey or one of our mixes. If the boys go out fishing then they get what ever they catch ( freshwater, I try to stay away from large saltwater fish due to mercury content) . If we end up with too many male quails I bring them home and let them loose in the backyard. The dogs enjoy chasing and catching their dinner, they will also "self serve" if an unlucky armadillo, opossum, snake or squirel wanders into the yard!

once again please excuse my poor spelling and scatter-brainedness, my brain is a bit tired and frazzled as things in our personal life have not been going very smoothly...

[sherrylynne]

Coming in on this late, but I've noticed one thing throughout. Everyone on these other forums is saying "almost", or "mostly" one protein source. Does that mean they are feeding a second/third weekly? Monthly? Raw diets are averaged out, for ferrets/cats, over the week, or the two week period. Is it possible that the extra different proteins they are getting is what's making the difference in the dog's health? Maybe just enough to keep them in good condition?

[bluemoose]

Dogs are also balance over time and many people feed primarily chicken but also feed beef, pork, turkey, ect. I think most people feed at least a 2nd protein at least once a week. But of course there are as many different menus as there are raw feeders. As far as I've seen, the majority of raw feeders don't feed exclusively one protein all the time. But there is some debate as to whether one protein source can be fed most of the time. Personally I'm still not convinced that feeding chicken 5 or so times a week (with bone and organ) supplemented with fish oil is unacceptable.

[rarnold18]

Your right, feeding whole chicken 5 or so times a week and supplementing with oils, vitamins, herbs or other stuff isn't acceptable. Feeding a Prey Model or BARF diet is all about feeding what the animals would eat in the wild, about whole, natural, nutrition. It's not about fish oils, glucosimine and chondritoin powders or pills, yogurt bacterias and so on... It about the animals getting what they need nutritionally from the food they eat. It's about feeding a variety of foods so you don't have to add pills, medications or other nonsense to your animals diet.... the more you mess with something, the less nutritional value it has and there is a bigger chance that things can go wrong.
Fish Oil for example... the FDA has mandates on how fish products and other fats are preserved and most companies use ethoxyquin as it keeps the fats from becomming rancid and it's cheaper than using more natural products. Under a certian PPM it's supposed to be harmless (which I doubt), regardless, why would I want to give my animals something that may or maynot have been treated with ethoxyquin, a known carsinogen linked to liver cancers and the like??? Yes fish oil is a wonderful antioxident, but shouldn't you be getting your antioxident from the foods that you eat or feed? You need more fish oil in your diet? Add more fresh water fish to it, you benefit more from adding the whole food rather than just a part of the food. (I say fresh water fish because they are usually smaller and contain less mercury than larger salt water fish like grouper (yum!) swordfish, and tuna, usually the larger the fish is the more mercury it is)
One of the things that I feed is beef trechea, it's a great chewy treat but it's also high in glucosimine and chondritoin which is great for joint health and being that some of the dogs in our family are giant breeds or breeds that are prone to joint problems it's something we feed regularly. They benefit more from me feeding them the whole food than just from getting it in pill form, trechea is really chewy which exercises and strengthens jaw muscles, it also helps cleans the teeth and massages the gums. My two boys will be 8 years old on September 29th and their teeth look AWESOME! and being that we started feeding BARF 5 years ago they have never had to get their teeth cleaned and teeth cleaning at the vets is SUPER expensive...before feeding BARF I couldn't afford it even thought they needed it, after 3 months of feeding a BARF diet their teeth were immaculate and the vet couldn't believe that I hadn't gotten their teeth cleaned elsewhere, that feeding raw bones could of changed the appearance of thier teeth so dramatically...including my 14 year old chihuahua's teeth, and we all know how horrible small and toy breed teeth are, Lola's were no different and had a few that probably needed to be pulled, I started her on raw and increased her bone intake slowly so she could gain jaw strenth and 6 months later the teeth that were bad were gone and the teeth that she had were white with no tarter build up and wow what a difference it made with her breath!!! A teeth cleaning at the vets costs about $200+ because they have to put the animal under general anesthsia which can be dangerous for some dogs, especially the older ones. Why would I put my dog through that if I can adjust their diet, the food that they eat, to prevent that.

[katt]

They need variety for the same reasons we do. Every cell in your (or your ferret's) body requires protein to survive. Proteins make up enzymes, channels in cell membranes, structural components, yadda yadda. When a cell makes a protein it reads the DNA code and assembles the protein from free amino acids that the cell has taken up. Each protein requires a specific amino acid sequence, and thus a specific amino acid ratio. If the amino acids are not present in the proper proportions, the cell will run out of something, and be unable to produce the proteins that it needs to truly function properly. The amino acids the cell uses for this process come primarily from diet. The body breaks down food, and proteins are broken into amino acids, and (long story short) absorbed into cells to make new proteins that the body needs.
Different animals have inherently different proportions of amino acids, and the amino acids absorbed is even less than that I believe. Anyways, fed a diet consisting of only one animal (chicken for example) the cat/ferret/etc would only be getting amino acids in the specific proportions of what it could absorb from that particular animal. The different types of proteins throughout the body require a different range of amino acid proportions to be made, and eating only one protein source will not give the body the variety of amino acids that it really needs. And that is just speaking strictly protein - not even counting vitamins, minerals, fats, and carbs either! So yes, variety is key to any diet be it furred or two legged!
I hope I made some sense there...