Catznfertz's Switching Thread/Spiritualtramp

[Heather]

Just moving through on a prowl about. Sounds like you're off to a good start...great work. It's a real down set about Linus poor wee fellow. I wouldn't advocate surgery either, not because of his age but because they're finding less and less value for surgery for insulinomic ferrets. I personally would continue to hand feed Linus at least until you find out what his actual problem is. I gathering from your post that you've removed the kibble all together at this point?? How often do you feed Linus? and how often "can" you feed him? I'm more comfortable (personally) if an insulinomic ferret has kibble or some food that he's comfortable eating available to him all the time. The reason for his difficulties on awakening is that he's trying to get his blood sugar up, he needs some kind of sustenance available to him. If you can hand feed him 4 or 5 times during the day then you can probably get by without putting kibble in his cage and allowing everyone to cohabitate together. If you cannot (this is only until he gets to a vet and you find out difinitively what the problem is) then separate him from his chums only while you're away from him and it's totally up to him how much he eats. Once he's on pred and his blood sugar is more stabalized then you will have a wider band to play with and he could possibly go for times without food. One of the problems is as he goes longer without food, the more likely he's going to feel queezy or nauseaus....the more he feels nauseaus the less likely he will eat on his own and the less likely he eats on his own the more likely he will crash Vicious circle.
One of my students had 2 little ferts both insulimomic. Her desire was to get them off kibble entirely. It turned out that this wasn't possible, her little ones' di-sease had progressed too far but they did eat about 90% raw and only ate kibbles when they were in their cage. That being said, she noted that for the most part they didn't even eat the kibbles then but would rather eat the raw (it actually makes them feel better, because the energy it produces lasts longer) so she would leave them with raw food in their cage too. Then they had a choice. Once your little ones are more comfortable with their switch they too will start to ignore the kibbles and eat only the raw food but this takes time.
The reason why your little ones are more thrilled with the 15% kibble mix vs pure raw is the carb high that they get. Think of ferrets as little children, you offer them chocolate chip cookies (kibble) or veggies. Which would they want to eat (most children )? Tell them that they can have bites of cookies between their veggies or just veggies, which would they choose? Your ferrets are doing the same thing. That's why mixing the two often creates problems. Your little fuzzies are addicted to kibble, to switch them off you have to turn them off (no kibbles) This of course brings you back to your quandry with Linus. Once again, you have to wait to find out what is actually wrong with Linus and what the solution is. So, if it was me and all my little fuzzies lived together and I felt that the health of my sick fuzzy relied on him continuing to cohabitate with his chums (some ferrets don't really care) then I would pause the switching of that group where ever they're at in their switch and try and maintain that switch in that holding pattern. Reinforcing what they already know (by feeding them raw whenever possible but leaving kibble as a secondary access).
Just my thoughts on it, now I'm off to pester someone else
ciao

[catznfertz]

At this point I have not had any regular kibble in their cage for several weeks, just the stuff I have started mixing in with their chicken. My hope was that the kibble mixed in would make Linus more willing to eat on his own, but he is now refusing to eat from the plate at all. I have to spoon feed him, and since I'm out of the house for 10+ hours during the week, I can only hand feed him 2-3 times a day.

I think he is starting to be nauseated, too. When I fed him this morning he was pawing at his mouth, and he had a pretty nasty slimy poo too.

I know if I put kibble back in the cage with everyone, then no one will want to eat meat. I don't want to backslide with everyone else just because of one ferret. It sounds like I just need to break down and get another cage for Linus, and just switch him back to kibble. I would still offer him meat on a daily basis, but I'm sure if there was kibble available at all, it would be the major part of his diet. I was really hoping to be able to just get the stuff out of the house completely, but it sounds like that's not gonna happen.

Well, I'm off to the vet.

sigh....

[catznfertz]

Well, the vet didn't even do a blood test since he hadn't been fasted long enough when I got him there. (When I made the appointment, I asked, and they told me not to fast him at all). But from a description of Linus's symptoms, she agreed that he is probably insulinomic. She also said his spleen was enlarged, and there could be other problems like lymphoma going on as well. But she thought the prednisone would be a good idea either way, and prescribed .1 ml twice a day. It's not very much stuff at all, but Linus REFUSES anything that has his medicine in it. I tried mixing it with fish oil (which he loves) and heavy cream (which he also loves), but he wouldn't even taste it. I ended up having to do it the hard way. by scruffing him. He fought like the dickens and ended up peeing on me. I'm not sure I can do that to him twice a day for the rest of his life. I thought pred was supposed to be fairly tasteless, but this stuff is nasty! I don't want to try mixing it in his meat at all, for fear of turning him off of it completely.

Meanwhile, I'm just gonna stick with the chicken and kibble stuff, and continue spoon feeding him for a while. Hopefully the meds will kick in and stimulate his appetite some so I don't have to spend an hour a day feeding ferrets. If not, I will have to separate him out and just give him his kibble back.

Any advice?

[spiritualtramp]

I used to have a girl with lymphoma, and to give her preds, I would first suck up about .3 mL of oil, then a small air pocket, then the preds, then another small air pocket, then another .3 or so of oil. This way she'd be happy to get an oil treat, and by the time she realized the pred had been snuck in, she was getting more oil again. It worked well and she rarely struggled.

Others mix it into warm (but NOT hot) soups, baby food, etc without much of a fight. Heat will break down the medication though so make sure it's added after heating, and when it has cooled considerably.

I think he's fighting so much right now because his tummy is upset from not eating. I'd keep up with the hand-feeding for as long as needed until he will eat on his own. Like Heather said, it can be a vicious cycle that takes a while to correct - but I don't think it's a lost cause. He will eat on his own again, when he feels better.

As for the food available at all times, I do think that raw would be best if possible. I know some people leave their raw meals in the cage all day, and this is not really a problem. Others leave freeze-dried foods available always. And then some leave kibble. I would hope that we can get him onto raw or freeze-dried so that those are reasonable options but understand if that isn't doable. Right now, I think it's best to hold off on making any decisions on the long-term care, and focus on getting him feeling better and getting his confidences up with the current foods. Once he's stabilized on preds and more willing to eat on his own, we can make a better, more pragmatic decision. Offer kibbles for now, as well as the current soupies.

I do think a separate cage is a wise idea right now. Browse craigslist and freecycle, you might find a decent spare cage for cheap or free, and that way you're not shelling out too much more money unnecessarily.

Thanks for popping in Heather!

[catznfertz]

I tried the oil-pred-oil idea this morning, and it was a pretty miserable failure. The medicine is pretty thin, and it just mixed up with the ferretone. Linus would not be fooled, so I just had to syringe it directly into his mouth. I got peed on for the 4th time in the past 3 days. I tried a little taste of the stuff myself, and I'd probably pee on me too!

My husband has nixed the separate cage idea, and I kind of tend to agree with him. I have different reasons than he does, but I just don't think Linus would be happy to spend his last days apart from all his snuggling buddies.

So far, Linus seems to be doing pretty well on his chicken and kibble mix, and I've started cutting back a bit on the amount of kibble I'm adding. He's maintaining his weight, and the vet said he was in pretty good body condition. That kind of surprised me, 'cuz to me he looks too skinny, but the vet said he looks just right.

Once again, he has raw food available to him at all times, but he just won't eat it on his own. He sits back and waits for me to stick a spoon under his nose. You would think he would just get something to eat when he gets hungry, but it doesn't seem to be working that way. I'm afraid NOT to spoon feed him, since that's how that crash came about the other day. I'm just befuddled that he would eat the stuff out of a spoon, but not from a plate...

My thought now is to try him out on some of the freeze dried diets, with the thought that maybe it would be more kibble-like (read: crunchy) than raw meat. If he'll eat that on his own, I think that would be awesome, and a whole lot less work than trying to spoon feed the little beasty 3-4 times a day, and a lot better for him and the other ferrets than kibble.

What brands of freeze dried diets are recommended/accepted by ferrets? I'm hoping to find one that doesn't have a whole lot of extra junk in it, and that won't break the bank.

Do ferrets tend to accept the freeze dried stuff pretty readily, or will I have to struggle to get them switched onto that too? It's pretty expensive for an experiment...

My biggest worry, besides having to spoon feed Linus all the time, is it's holding the rest of the gang back from really getting switched to real food. They were starting to do pretty good with other proteins, but I haven't fed them anything but chicken in the past couple of weeks, for fear of upsetting the proverbial applecart...

[spiritualtramp]

www.caseyshiddenpantry.com

A user here, Jojodancer, runs this webstore and sells a great variety of freeze-dried foods at really good prices. I generally keep a few varieties of Stella & Chewy's on hand for emergencies, traveling, etc. They make handy meals when I'm in a rush, or have to have someone else feed the kids. The Chicken and Beef steaks are the only ones formulated for cats, to include heart (a source of taurine) and that would be the one I'd base meals off of, because ferrets, like cats, are thought to need taurine via diet whereas dogs can synthesize it themselves using other aminos. Mixing those with some other varieties will give a nice balance. The AFS patties are also well-liked in this house, and I've fed Ziwipeak foods before as well. The Wysong kibbles are also decent but quite expensive comparatively.

Most ferrets I've had or helped switch like the freeze-dried foods and take to them pretty easily. Of course some kids are oddballs so I won't say Linus will for sure take to them easily... it'd be my luck that I say that and he turns out to be the one ferret that HATES it But generally it's a nice medium and doesn't take a lot of convincing.

Try out one of CHP's sampler packs to get an idea of what Linus (and the other kids, if you end up deciding to switch them all) like best.

I understand your concern about the others being held back because of Linus, and this is why I still think a separate cage would be beneficial. You could cage him with a friend, whomever he is most bonded with, and of course they'd have the same playtimes. It seems sad for him right now but I do think in the long run it'd make your life, and his life, much easier and less stressful. So don't write that option off entirely just yet.

Check out CHP and let me know your thoughts.

[catznfertz]

Awesome store, I will definitely be purchasing one of the sampler packs. Hopefully that stuff will be a hit and I can just leave it in the cage as an alternative grub. I can put a lock-crock with it right next to his favorite hammock so he doesn't have to travel to get some chow.

I went back to the vet yesterday and got some prednisolone that is banana flavored instead of the nasty "cherry" stuff. It still doesn't taste good at all, but I was able to sneak it into a syringe full of chicken baby food without getting sliced up or peed on!!! That was a big relief! I could only find the baby food that is just chicken, water and corn starch. Is this the "Chicken only" stuff that everyone talks about? It is Gerber 2nd stage, or something like that.

Linus still isn't eating much on his own, but I can tell he's a bit perkier with the prednisolone in his system. I haven't seen any spacing out or stumbling around in a while. He's doing pretty well being fed raw in the morning, when I get home from work, and before bed. I've cut the kibble down to just a couple spoonfuls of powder to about 5 ounces of ground meat/bones/organs, and started adding some pork into the mix too. I'll take that much more slowly this time around!

Little Franklin is not so little any more! Since I got him home, and started him on my raw stuff, he has grown by leaps and bounds. He's already as big as Linus, and totally dwarfs little Patty. He is such a good ferret too. Every evening after play time, when the others find a good hiding place to curl up and sleep, he climbs right up the ladder into his cage and puts himself to bed! The first time he did that, I was in a total panic. I hadn't intended to leave him loose for that long, since I had no idea where he'd end up when he was done playing. I searched the whole house for about 45 minutes before I just happened to walk past the cage and saw him yawn and stretch and look at me. It was pretty humorous.

Gotta love them weasels!

[spiritualtramp]

Aw, Franklin sounds like a sweetheart. I always panic with a new kid because their sleep spots tend to be so dramatically different than the other kids', and until you figure out their sleep preferences, it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack. Pilot likes to sleep inside the pocket of my bathrobe... imagine my fright when I couldn't find her ANYWHERE, as my robe was hanging inside the CLOSED closet

The Gerber baby food is okay, but next time you make a baby food run, look for Beech Nut brand. They're the brand that makes the meat-only varieties. The corn starch in Gerber's versions isn't BAD per se, but for an insulinoma fert, I'd be wary of adding any carbs whatsoever to the diet.

I'm glad you found a flavoring of preds that works for now! Hopefully he continues to accept it a little less melodramatically

Keep up the hard work!

[catznfertz]

Yep, Frankie fits in just perfect with the rest of the gang. Except for a few minor scuffles with Schroeder, he has integrated seamlessly into our household. He hasn't figured out the "come downstairs" concept yet when it is time to come out and play. He just looks down at me from the top level and yells, "hey I wanna come out too!!!"

I'll definitely check out the Beechnut brand of baby food. I didn't think the corn starch would be a big deal if he only gets maybe a teaspoon at a time, but it's still more carbs than he really needs. It definitely cuts down on the drama at medicine-time though!

I will be ordering some of the freeze dried foods this weekend, and in the meantime will continue spoon feeding as I have been.

I'm going to start mixing in more pork until they will eat it on its own. How long should I stick with pork before I go back to chicken? I think I threw everyone off before when I tried too fast to rotate between two or three different flavors. It seems to take them a while to get used to new stuff, but I don't want them to forget about chicken once they get used to pork!

[catznfertz]

We are now back to about 80% pork with just a spoonful of kibble powder mixed in. They seem to like it a lot better with some extra water added, so that it sticks to their little tongues and they can slurp it up. Sort of an oatmeal consistency. I have been adding in some eggshell powder to the boneless pork to keep poopies on an even keel. Their chicken blend is probably around 20% or so bone, since its just leg quarters minus the drumstick. But they seem to do well on it, so maybe a bit of extra calcium won't hurt.

I have also started adding a taurine supplement, since all they will eat is ground and frozen. I was hoping to be past that point by now, but I guess I gotta go with the flow. My next question is how much extra taurine should I be adding? So far I've just added one 500mg capsule to their evening meal. Between five ferrets, that sounds like a good starting point, but I really have no clue how much they need. Their chicken is all dark meat, and I guess I could add some heart to the mix, but so far I would still have to grind it

[spiritualtramp]

One capsule between five, per day, is probably fine. There's no real knowledge base for how much they need, we just think that they need it, being obligate carnivores and knowing that cats, also obligate carnivores, need it in their diet or they develop heart and eye issues. And cardiomyopathy is not uncommon in ferrets, leading to the question of taurine need.

You can't "overdose" taurine, either, so I wouldn't worry too much. As long as they are getting some in supplement form or through diet, they ought to be okay.

I would keep on the current pork mix for several days. Four or five at least. Then maybe go back to chicken for three or so days. Enough time for them to accept the meat, but not forget the other meats.

As for the calcium, you'll know if they're getting too much: their poops will get white and hard, and they may be constipated. Adding some eggshell in the meantime is a good plan though, to keep things moving.

How is Linus doing?

[catznfertz]

Ok, that sounds like a good plan with the taurine. Though if i add taurine to the mix before I freeze it up it would certainly make meal times easier. Does anyone do it this way? I'm sure it's better to add taurine at meal time, but my hubby already complains that I "cook" more for my animals than I do for him!

I think we may have to stay at 80% pork for a while before moving on to 100%. Everyone seems to be doing well on it, but I don't think Patty has been eating with as much gusto as she does with the chicken. She will eat it from the spoon pretty well though, so I know she knows it's food. Linus will pretty much eat anything, as long as it's in a spoon.

As frustrating as it is to have to spoon feed the little beastie, I think we've kind of hit a stride with Linus. I can tell the pred is making him feel better, and yesterday he was out running around and war dancing right along with baby Franklin. It was really nice to see. He didn't last for very long at that pace, but at least he didn't go into the flat ferret state. I gave him a little spoonful of ground meat, and that seemed to keep him going pretty well.

For the most part, we are feeding him about 3 times a day, morning, after work, and before bed. I think since the stuff I'm feeding has minimal carbs (down to only about a teaspoon of kibble powder per meal, between five ferrets) it keeps his blood sugar pretty level. He has gained back the weight that he lost, and a lot of the spunk, so he no longer has that gaunt, death's door look he did just a couple of weeks ago.

I did order some of the Stella and Chewy's from Casey's Hidden Pantry, so hopefully that will go over well. Me and hubby have decided that we'd rather continue spoon feeding raw than go back to kibble, since it's just so much better for him. Though at this point, I wonder how much of this gotta-be-spoon-fed thing is him being sick, and how much of it is just spoiled bratty ferret.

[catznfertz]

I'm so thrilled! This evening I gave the ferrets their regular meal, which is now almost all pork. I also tossed in a little chunk of game hen with some ribs in it just for fun. They just sniffed it, licked it a time or two, and wandered off. But when I looked on on them later, it was in a different spot and noticeably smaller!

I don't know who done it, and I don't think any actual bones were consumed, but that was a lot more than I expected!

[catznfertz]

By this morning, the fuzzies had polished off the rest of their ground pork mix, AND I can't find the rest of that CGH chunk anywhere! It's certainly possible it's petrifying between the folds of a blanket or something, but it certainly wasn't where I left it. I think I'll start leaving bits and pieces of easy-peasy meaty bones for them on the side. If one or more of them will just start noshing, there's no reason to hold them back while the others are catching up.

Breakfast this morning was 100% ground pork, with just a bitty spoonful of kibble powder for seasoning. Patty seems to have decided it is good stuff, and had a pretty good feed. Linus even came downstairs on his own for breakfast! He didn't eat more than a few bites from the plate, before I had to spoon feed him, but at least that's a start.

I got some of the Beechnut chicken baby food, and Linus doesn't like it. The jar is well within its "use-by" date, but there was some yucky looking grayish scum on the top of the food. Is that normal? I opened up another jar, and it had the same thing. I scooped the stuff off the top, and offered him some of the clean food underneath, but he just wasn't thrilled with it. It didn't smell bad to me, but I have a cold and maybe my sense of smell is off. But I didn't want to push the issue, so I just gave him his prednisolone with the Gerbers baby food, which he slurped up quite happily.

[catznfertz]

We are now at 100% pork, no chicken, no kibble, no nuthin' except for some taurine and eggshell powder. Everyone seems pretty happy with it now, even picky Miss Patty. I'll stick with that for another day or so, and then go back to chicken for a couple of days. Do most people rotate foods a few days at a time, or at every meal? With my cats, I try to give them something different at each meal, but I don't know if ferrets like that much variety.

Last night I found out who my secret nosher is. Turns out Piggy is living up to his name. I shredded up a whole CGH wing with a bit of breast meat hanging off and tossed it in their cage before I turned them out for their evening romp. I didn't mash the bone or anything, cuz I thought we'd be doing good just to get the meat off. It sat there for a few hours with no hits, but when I went back to the cage to give them their pork mush there was Pigpen, just gnawing away at that wing. I stood there and watched him work at it for a good 10 minutes before he gave up and went to bed. He gnawed off the tip and pulled off most of the meat. I left the remains in the cage overnight, and this morning all I found was a little section of bone, picked clean with the ends chewed off. Pretty good for a little deafie!! And this is a little guy who's ever had to chew anything but kibble and ground up mush!