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Post by catznfertz on Jan 24, 2010 16:27:55 GMT -5
I think alternating between boneless and bone in meals would be soooo much easier than trying to get 10% bone in every meal. Deboning chicken leg quarters is such a pain in the butt. Once I get them introduced to other meats, I can just run whole leg quarters thru the grinder and feed that about every third or fourth meal. Then I won't have to save extra chicken bones to add to other meats and do all that calculation. Math was never my best subject! I'm guessing that loose stools from boneless meals isn't necessarily harmful, right?
Last night and this morning, they didn't seem to eat very much. I didn't do much of the spoon feeding, but they seemed to be going at it pretty well when I first gave them their dinner. They just didn't eat much of it overnight or so far during the day today. I know cats can literally starve themselves to death if they don't like what's for dinner, but can I trust that ferrets will eat when they get hungry? Any time I spoon some meat for them, they go at it like gangbusters, but they don't seem to have much motivation to go to the plate and eat. I don't want to have to spoon feed the little beasties forever! I haven't given them any kibble in a couple of days now.
The piece of gizzard I offered was just a teeny bit, maybe half the size of the end joint on my pinky finger. I will try some even teenier bits here and there just to get them used to the idea.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Jan 25, 2010 20:36:28 GMT -5
Ferrets and cats do have that starving thing in common, at least in the beginning. Ferrets get over it eventually, but then again they get hungry faster!
Loose stools from boneless meat is of course not harmful. I feed regular boneless meals (4 per week) with no issue. Some people freak when they first see those poops, though.
Give them some time and they will eat it off the plate themselves, without you having to spoon it to them. Right now, the encouragement and emotional support of you spooning it is important, but when they decide that they can trust everything that you place in front of them, they'll struggle to get out of your hands when you try to spoon feed them! Be patient, and it will happen.
You're doing fantastic so far!
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Post by catznfertz on Jan 25, 2010 23:49:57 GMT -5
I am a bit worried about Linus. He hasn't lost more than an ounce or so since I started the switch, but this evening he was pretty hard to rouse for play time, and was having some ttouble keeping his back legs under him on the linoleum. He has been like that before, but I still wonder if he's not eating as much as he needs, or if this is just a factor of elderly ferret. He is about six. He did get warmed up enough to nose around a bit before he decided it was bedtime. I spoon fed him till he was full, and gave him some heavy cream. He thought that was pretty swell.
Any thoughts on this weakness? Maybe he is too old to make the switch safely?
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Post by spiritualtramp on Jan 28, 2010 9:22:04 GMT -5
It could be he's not getting enough; just old age, or something more severe. My thought is actually possible insulinoma. When was he last vet check? Does he ever get spacey or unresponsive? Does he drool sometimes?
Insulinomas are tumors on the pancreas that over-secrete insulin, causing a very low drop in blood sugar. In effect, it acts like the opposite of diabetes. It's common in older kids and can be regulated with medication and diet. Raw foods would benefit him a lot, but if it is insulinoma, he's going to need frequent meals or access to food all day.
Can you separate him to with maybe one buddy, to provide all-day access to food?
I'd also get him into the vet at some point for a fasting BG level. Have them do the in-house, not the send-out (in-house is cheaper and more accurate.)
Good luck!
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Post by catznfertz on Jan 28, 2010 23:14:01 GMT -5
I haven't had any of the ferrets to the vet other than their first set of shots (before I learned better!) and the couple of times that Linus got the sniffles. The last time that happened was a couple of years ago. I had the insulinoma thought as well, but once he gets awake and alert he usually gets around ok. He hasn't had a spell like the one a few nights ago since then. He just tends to sleep a lot. I wouldn't call him spacey or anything, just sleep. I've never seen him drool.
On a lighter note, I bought a package of ground pork and have been mixing a bit of that in with their chicken grind. I offered it straight and didn't get any takers. I have been offering bits and pieces of whatever the cats are eating, and still haven't gotten any hits on that either, except they do seem to like the liver and organ mix I whip up. They just get the scrapings of the bottom of the bowl, so it's mostly liver (the kidney is in big chunks), but they seem to like that pretty well. Of course, EVERYTHING tastes better when it's in a spoon. I kind of relate that to my love of having my sandwiches cut in half. They taste better that way, I swear!!! I haven't given them any more than maybe a quarter teaspoon of that, since they have liver and organs mixed into their chow already, but it gives me hope that I won't have to do that forever.
A couple of days ago, Marvin the cat decided he didn't want the game hen thigh he was given for dinner, so I shredded it up a bit and put it on the ferrets' plate overnight. When I looked in on them the next morning, the thigh was stashed away in a corner. That afternoon, it was in another corner. I really couldn't tell if anything had been eaten (kind of doubtful) but it was really more of a response than I had ever expected. At least they're thinking about it!
As far as the spoon feeding goes, how long do you think it will take until everyone will eat enough on their own? They all start off eating from their plate, but then they just seem to lose interest and wander off. Also, when you said that 4-6 oz was probably about right, was that per meal or per day? (I feed twice daily.) If I spoon feed them a whole 4-5 oz in the evening, it seems like they barely touch the same amount during the day. I end up throwing out at least a third of the day's food. The cats think it's awesome that they get to have their dinner, and then part of the ferrets', and they're starting to get a little portly.
I wonder if it would help the ferrets to get used to the idea of chewing and help strengthen their jaws if I gave them some treats like N-Bones, or those rubbery star shaped chew treats? Thats kind of how I got my cats to finally eat bone. They had already decided they LOOOOVE pork, so I gave them some split pig tails as one of their first bone-in meals. They liked the pork enough to actually work at it, and those tails kept them busy for hours. After that, they will pretty much eat any bone I offer. Pipsqueak even ate a whole pork rib once!! So maybe if the ferrets get something they really like that they have to work for a bit, it will clue them into working for their grub? I don't really like feeding that kind of junk food, but maybe it would serve a purpose?
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Post by spiritualtramp on Jan 29, 2010 11:42:23 GMT -5
I would still get him checked out, sooner rather than later, as it may just be the very beginning stages of insulinoma and if he's getting a good diet (which he is, even transitory like this) then he likely won't have a full-on crash. It's still a worry in my mind though and I'd be more comfortable switching him once we knew for certain.
The liking of liver is good news, that means you can try feeding liver straight if that's something you'd like to someday be able to do - or keep mixing it into their grind. Whatever works! Just be mindful of how much they are getting so as not to overload them with vitamin a, which can cause toxicities and illness.
I would steer clear of the chew treats and things. It won't encourage chewing, it will just add unneccesary sugars and weird things to their bodies that they don't need. They will get there on their own, be patient. For now, keep with spoon feeding once they start to wander off. 4-6 oz per meal sounds right to me but by all means adjust that if you think it's too much! They might be getting enough from one meal right now that they really just aren't hungry in the a.m. What times are you feeding them? Maybe they need longer fasts (except for Linus!!) between p.m. meal and a.m. meal. For Linus, I think you ought to feed him both his grinds daily but do not fast between. At least until you get him in and looked at for insulinoma. Could you pick up some freeze-dried to leave out between meals, instead of kibble? Is that a reasonable middle-ground?
Let me know and don't feel discouraged. They are stubborn and set in their ways, but they will get there. Keep at it!
As an added note, I think it might do some good inspirationally and motivationally if you took a chance to read through some of the switch threads in the archive and also those currently switching. It might help give you an idea of how long it can sometimes take, and how many different routes there are ---- and how some ferrets choose their own route, despite what us humans want to do!!
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Post by catznfertz on Jan 31, 2010 17:09:33 GMT -5
I have been leaving their leftovers in the cage until the next feeding time, so there is always food in the cage. It doesn't always get touched in between meal times, but sometimes one or another will take a nibble here or there. They get fed usually around 6.30am or so, and then again around 9pm. I'd like to feed them earlier in the evening, but by the time I get home from work, feed the cats, let the ferrets out to play for a couple of hours, and get them fed, it's time for bed. I've found if I feed them before play time, they just want to curl up and sleep it off.
The kids did decide last night that pork is good stuff! I was mixing it with their chicken over the past couple days, and finally got to about 50/50. Then last night I tried a bit of straight ground pork, and they gobbled it right up! I bumped them back over to straight chicken for breakfast, and we'll try pork again for dinner. If that goes over well, I'll try the same trick with some duck a bit later this week. I was originally thinking turkey for the next protein, but I think it would benefit them to get some fattier meats. Then we can get a real rotation going.
I have also noticed that the ferrets have actually been chewing more, rather than just lapping the meat up. I've offered some teeny bits of gizzard and heart on the side, and still haven't gotten any hits on those, but I think the next time I grind up some chicken I'll use the medium plate instead of the finest one. Maybe that will get them on the right track.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Feb 2, 2010 11:36:14 GMT -5
Sounds good so far, I am glad that they're taking to the pork. Fattier meats are better, in general, for ferrets. And getting them accustomed to the stronger meats early on is wise. Duck can be hit or miss, since it is generally strong and gamey, but if you keep at it my guess is they will grow to like it the same way they like the pork now. Keep is simple and slow, you're doing great.
I find that they don't want to play after meals, either - so timing playtimes beforehand is a must!
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Post by catznfertz on Feb 2, 2010 23:47:42 GMT -5
Took a bit of a backslide on the pork today. I had run out of the pre-ground stuff I bought and ground up some boneless sirloin roast with a bit of extra fat. My grind is a lot finer than the store grind, and I thought that would go over well. Unfortunately I guess its a different cut of meat that tastes different, so it must be something foreign and possibly poisonous. Sigh. I will go back to 50/50 for breakfast tomorrow and see how that goes over.
I did grind up a duck at the same time, though, and everyone was eager to lick the spoon. I didn't offer it as a full meal yet since I want them 100% on pork first. I think duck is like80% fat, so I'm sure a little goes a long way.
I have seen some weight loss since the pork went bust, but Linus is actually holding steady at 2.8. Patty is down about an ounce to 1.8, Schroeder lost a couple ounces to 2.10, and Piggy has lost about three ounces or so to 2.14. Everyone seems to be feeling just dandy, should I be too concerned? Pigpen certainly and Schroeder have some weight to spare, but Patty is such a tiny critter to begin with. I gave them all some cream this evening.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Feb 3, 2010 10:45:27 GMT -5
There will be fluctuations in the switch, try not to focus too hard on that right now. As long as everyone is eating, playing, and pottying alright, then keep trucking along. If someone stops doing one of those things, then it's time to re-examine weight losses to find the problem. But because the diet is so different than what they are used to getting, there will be of course some fluctuations. First they will slim down slightly, then they will fill out and gain a lot more muscle.
Hope the strike was only a momentary thing. I find that with my kids, if they refuse any one thing (usually ground meats, as they don't get those as often) then I just drizzle some salmon oil over it, or blend it up with some water into a soup, and then it's delicious again. Simple fixes can be useful reminders!
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Post by catznfertz on Feb 4, 2010 23:17:30 GMT -5
I went back to a mix of chicken and pork, and they seem to like that pretty well. I kind of wonder if they would like it better with some liver mixed in. Right now it is just boneless meat mush. I started leaving their leftovers in the cage for 24 hours instead of chunking it at the next mealtime. I figure that way if one doesnt like what's for dinner, he can have some more breakfast. My cats are getting too fat from cleaning the ferret plate! So far, duck seems to be a hit! They came pretty close to cleaning their plate tonight, with only a little spoon feeding. I only made portions about3-4 ounces, but they seemed pretty satisfied, with just a little left over. After I took the breast/ribs for the cats, it was mostly fat and bone. I blended up the liver and giblets, too, so maybe thats what makes it nummy. I guess if eat, play, and potty are the thing, we got that covered. Though I have noticed a dramatic lessening of the stinkiness of said potties. This makes Mom a very happy camper indeed!
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Post by spiritualtramp on Feb 5, 2010 23:47:46 GMT -5
Keep introducing things, and they will catch on. And remember to keep tabs on how much liver you are offering them weekly!
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Post by catznfertz on Feb 11, 2010 11:49:57 GMT -5
Had a bit of a setback this past week. Linus had what I am sure is an insulinomic episode a few days ago. I perked him up a bit with some ferret-vite, and then offered a spoonful of his raw mix. He wouldn't take that, so I offered a handful of kibble. He came round right away and started chowing down like he was starving to death. He has an appointment next week with the vet to get his blood sugar tested and a prescription for some prednisone. I don't think surgery is going to be an option for the old guy. Since then, I have been mixing some ground up kibble into their raw, and everyone seems to like that pretty well. Linus will still only eat a small amount off the plate, then climb into his hammock and wait for me to spoon feed him. Every time I stick a spoon under his nose, he eats like he's hungry, but he's too lazy to get out of bed and go get a snack on his own, even though there is food available 24/7.
We went back to just chicken and kibble for the time being. I want to try and put some more weight on Linus before I start switching things up again. I figure even if we have to stick with just chicken and kibble, it's better than just kibble.
We also had a bit of an interesting time last week, since we added a new kit to our family. Franklin is about 3 months old, and I thought he'd be more adventurous with trying new foods, but for the first 24 hours we had him, I couldn't get him to try anything new, even the kibble I had. I finally had to run the next morning and get him a bag of Marshall's. Once he had some of that, it was pretty easy to get him switched over to the chicken and kibble stuff. It was an interesting few days of switching him back and forth from the big cage with the other ferrets back to his own little cage with his own food. Of course, my original clan wouldn't even consider Marshall's as real food. The only one that would even take it out of my hand was Schroeder, and he just hid it in the litterbox! I was pretty amazed comparing Franklin's poo with my guys. That Marshall's stuff moistened down looks EXACTLY THE SAME coming out as it does going in!!
Anyway, since then, Linus hasn't had any more problems. I think his episode might have been brought on by the running and playing he did with little Frankie. I hadn't seen him so chipper in a while.
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Post by spiritualtramp on Feb 12, 2010 10:54:38 GMT -5
I'm glad you're finally getting Linus to the vet. For now, I'd be more comfortable if you didn't continue switching him until he's stable on preds. It's too much of a risk and I'm not willing to go forth with that while he's still unbalanced. If possible, separate him into a quarantine cage. You could cage him with Franklin since Franklin is still needing kibble. That way you can continue giving them kibble/chicken and leaving food available at all times, and continuing forth with everyone else as planned.
Congrats on Franklin, as well! Generally I recommend a couple weeks of quarantining with new additions, especially pet store kits. But, you already broke that, so let's just hope he didn't introduce any buggums to the crew.
Stress and excitement can bring forth underlying conditions, but moreso as a catalyst than anything. I thought Linus was inso when we first talked about him, but just hadn't had a crash yet. I'm sorry it took a new addition to make a crash occur in him, but it's not the playing or running itself that caused it, so don't limit his exercise and playtimes any!
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Post by catznfertz on Feb 12, 2010 12:36:13 GMT -5
So at this point, should I continue with spoon feeding Linus the chicken and kibble mix (it's mostly chicken), or just switch him back to straight kibble? He eats the mix just fine if I spoon feed him, but he won't eat much of it on his own. I know that the raw stuff is better for him, but if he won't eat it, it doesn't do much good.
Franklin has decided that the chicken and kibble mix is pretty good, so he's been eating that along with the rest of the gang. The mix is probably only 15% kibble, so I guess that's better than all kibble. All of the ferrets like that stuff better than just plain raw.
I have a tiny little cage that I could separate Linus in, but it just has a litterbox, hammock, and food/water bowls. I could separate him out for meals, but I think he would get depressed if he couldn't cuddle with his buddies. Plus, that would defeat the purpose of having kibble available at all times. I'm so confused!
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