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Post by kaiatbh on Jul 20, 2010 9:02:47 GMT -5
....dog training? My yorkie pup is 15 weeks old. I love him to pieces but he is BAD. Sometimes evil. It's like we have no control over him. We got him when he was 9 weeks old (which I know is too early for a yorkie, but didn't know at the time), and we instantly started trying to train him. But to be honest, when he first came home with us, he was good. He seems to have a very dominant personality, which worries me because he's probably better suited for someone who knows a lot about dogs. When he starts mouthing and nipping us, nothing will make him stop. I try yelping, he jumps at my face. I try giving a firm "NO," he jumps at my face. I try telling him to sit, he jumps at my face. We took him to a dog trainer. Not an expensive one, just some guy who kind of does it on the side. He did seem to understand dogs, but the session didn't really help. He told us that if Yoni absolutely won't calm down, we have to hold him down on his side until he submits. Yeah, not happening. I tried it once. I had to hold him down for over a half hour.... and I had to ask my mom to get me Dad's work gloves because my hands hurt so much. He got vicious and it scared me. There has to be another solution. A gentler solution. Sometimes I will go to pick him up and he'll growl and snap at my hand. I knoooow that you shouldn't pick a dog up from behind, but a dog also shouldn't growl and snap at you no matter what, because that is dangerous when the dog is full grown. I just want a GOOD dog. And I know it takes times, but this is NOT an easy dog to work with. I have had a horrible experience with a dog from my childhood.... he was very dominant and aggressive and he bit my sister. She had to get a shot and I remember being terrified of that dog. I'm just really stressed out about this because I feel like it's my fault. And I am already bonded with him, so rehoming him would be awful.... and I'd feel like I was betraying the family who sold him to us.
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Post by Chelsea on Jul 20, 2010 11:46:42 GMT -5
I posted a reply on Ferret Harmony too, but I'll post it here too incase anyone on HF is interested, I know there are some dog lovers here First off, stop watching the Dog Whisperer. You dont know HOW many people I know who have ruined their dogs, by attempting the "technique" they saw on that show. Sounds like you already tramatized the poor dog by forcing him on his side for a half hour, if you want to have any sort of relationship with your dog I dont suggest you do it again. A 15 week old puppy, is NOT "dominant". A 15 week old puppy is not trying to "dominate" you by biting. Puppies bite and mouth eachother, they are nippy and jumpy, and if you allow that behavior, they dont see anything wrong with it. So, does this dog KNOW what "sit" means? Does he know what "no" means? Does he know what he is doing wrong? Obviously not. First off, you need to realize that this is a PUPPY. Dominance has nothing to do with it, and it never does in dog training. Puppies will push their boundaries, testing how much they can get away with and what reactions they can get out of you. Biting and mouthing is very normal puppy behavior, BUT, it is YOUR job to teach the dog that it is not allowed. People tend to let the dog do whatever he wants when its a tiny puppy, cause THEN biting and mouthing your hand is "cute", but when the dog gets older, and the teeth start to HURT, its not so "cute" anymore. So, think of it from the dogs point of view. A couple weeks ago, biting and mouthing people and jumping up got him lots of attention, cause it was cute. So every time he did it, the behavior was REINFORCED. Now, the mouthing and biting starts to hurt and is annoying, and suddenly the humans decide to label it as a "problem behavior" and decide to try to correct the dog for it. The dog has no idea that he is doing anything wrong, because the behavior is still getting a response from you. When does he start mouthing and nipping? When you are sitting on the floor with him? When he is on your lap? First thing I would do, is start hand feeding. Hand feed as many meals as possible. If you are scared to have your hands that close to him or if he trys to nip, just stand up or sit in a chair and toss the food on the floor near him. Does he he know "Sit"? If he does, WAIT FOR HIM TO SIT, before every time you toss some food. Do NOT tell him to "sit", you want to show him you have food, then wait for him to sit on his own. Instead of commanding a behavior from him, you are making him think that HE is training YOU. Every time he sits, hand him some food. I would take a couple pieces of kibble (2 or 3) when he sits, give him one, and then toss the other about 1 foot away from him, so that he has to get up to get the food. Return to standing or sitting normally, and wait for him to sit again. If you dont have a clicker, I suggest you get one. They are extremly helpful training tools. They arent expencive, they range from .99 to maybe a couple dollars for a fancy one. They are available at any petstore. If you dont know how to use one, feel free to ask and I will explain it. Last time your hands were near him, you held him down for 30 minutes in an attemp to "dominate" him, NO WONDER HE DOESNT WANT YOUR HANDS NEAR HIM. Yes, the dog shouldnt growl or snap at humans trying to pick him up. And dogs shouldnt need to be fearful of their humans because they were forced into an uncomfortable position to make them "submissive". Which in reality, is only going to make your relationship worse anyways and make behavior problems WORSE because the dog is going to learn not to trust you. "Good dogs" arent just born that way, they are made. Of course they are born with potential, but dogs dont come into this world knowing everything we expect of them. You cant yell "no" at a dog and expect him to stop what hes doing, if he hasnt been taught when "No" is. Everything about our primate-like behavior basically tells the oposite of what we are really trying to tell our dogs. If you want to explain the behavior a little more (just saying that he nips and mouthes is kind of vague) I can offer some more advice. If you have any questions feel free to ask, Id be happy to help
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Post by kaiatbh on Jul 20, 2010 12:09:19 GMT -5
I guess I will post my reply to your reply here, also Thanks so much for the reply. I may have been doing everything wrong, but I've gotta plead ignorance on this one. I honestly didn't know who to go to when it came to dog training. All of my friends told me to watch The Dog Whisperer and read some of his books, so naturally, I did. And the dog trainer I took him to was obviously a huge Cesar fan. So yeah, everything I've been told has been wrong, I guess. But I'm trying to learn. It didn't take me long to realize that holding him on his side wasn't going to work. While I was doing this, I was thinking, "My god, who decided it was a good idea to do this to a little puppy?!" But I kept doing it because I thought I didn't know any more than a professional. But I haven't done it since. I couldn't force myself to put me or him through that again. I want my puppy to bond with me and trust me, like you said. And I know about the whole little dogs getting away with everything problem. From the start, I have never let him get away with anything. Well, I tried not to (my sister, on the other hand, lets him get away with anything, but that's a whole other problem). I tried sooo many different things, hoping he'd get the message that what he is doing is wrong. So many people told me that a high pitched yelp would work, because that's what he learned from his litter mates.... but it didn't work with Yoni. Other people told me that a stern voice would work, because even if he doesn't know what "No!" means, he will still understand the tone of my voice. None of this worked. He does understand the word "sit" and once in a while it will work, but when he's really crazy, it makes him jump at me more. I have a clicker, but I am not 100% sure how to use it. Right now, if he does something good, I will click and give him a treat (if I have the clicker at the time). That's how I taught him to sit. If you could give me some tips on clicker training, that would be great. I do hand feed him a lot of the time because he's really weird about eating out of the dish. The dog trainer told me that I should NEVER EVER hand feed; I should just leave his dish out for 20 minutes at a time and if he doesn't eat, take it away and wait until his next meal. Sorry, but he is a 15 week old puppy, it is important for him to eat. I will start off hand feeding, then I'll get him eating off the floor, and then he will sometimes eat from the dish. He is not aggressive when it comes to his food. He mostly nips when he gets really hyper. I will often give him a chew toy, and sometimes he will occupy himself with that, but other times he prefers my hands. If he starts biting me on my bed, I will put him on the floor and ignore him. If he's doing it on the living room floor, I will stand up, walk away, and ignore him (sometimes he chases me a bites my feet).... but he doesn't seem to be getting it. I guess I'm just really discouraged because so many people have told me that he's one of the baddest puppies they've ever met, and their puppies bit but "not that bad." The vet even told us that he's very dominant and will probably "run the household."
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Post by Chelsea on Jul 20, 2010 15:22:11 GMT -5
I wasnt trying to be rude, its obvious you care and are at least TRYING to do the right thing, even if you dont really know what that is :wink:
Cesar Millan is not a dog trainer, and he claims to have learned about "dog behavior" from watching packs of dogs and wild packs of wolves. The whole "dominance" thing in dog training is extremly out dated. The thing about the whole dogs laying on their side and "submitting" thing, is that, by FORCING a dog onto their side, you are being a bully, and a very untrustworthy leader. In a wolf pack, yes, submissive dogs WILL roll over on their side and expose their belly to the leader. The purpose of rolling over and exposing their belly is to signal to the leader or higher ranking dog that "I am not a threat, I mean no harm" to prevent an attack. The leader of the pack, NEVER forces another dog onto their side, the sumbissive dog does it WILLINGLY! There is no force involved, the sumbissive dog chooses to do it. By forcing your dog onto their side you are not acomplishing anything other than ruining the relationship between you and the dog.
First off, you should learn how to clicker train. Clicker training can basically be used to teach just about anything the dog can physically do. The purpose of a clicker, is to MARK the behavior you are rewarding. Its basically the same as saying "Good boy" and givng a treat. The reason a clicker is better than using a verbal marker (like "good boy") is because the clicker is exact, and verbal markers are a little sloppy. The way you would introduce a marker (verbal or clicker) is to get a handful of tiny, moist treats (so they can be eaten quickly, no crunchy stuff). Wait until the puppy isnt distracted and is somewhat calm, click the clicker and then immediatly feed a treat. You arent looking for a behavior, you are just teaching the dog that when he hears the "click" a reward is coming. Click, *treat*, click, *treat*, click, *treat*. Keep repeating this a minimum of 20 times. For a puppy, you may want to do even more. Then, wait for a second when you see the dog not looking at you (not super distracted, like by food or another dog) maybe he is just sniffing something, and click the clicker. If the dog turns and looks at you or comes to you to get his reward, you are ready to start training with the clicker. You would do the same thing with a verbal marker. If you use the word "good as your verbal marker, you would do: Good, *treat*, good, *treat*, good, *treat*, just like you did with the clicker.
Example: You are teaching the dog to sit Verbal marker- The dog is in front of you, looking at your handfull of treats, trying to figure out how to get them. If the puppy doesnt know any behaviors yet, he may just sit on his own after a while because he is bored and frustrated, then you would say "good" and give a treat. But, by the time you utter out the "d" in good, the puppy has already started to stand up from the sit in anticipation of the reward. So, what did you just reward? You'd like to think that it was the sitting behavior. But you actually just reinforced the puppy for standing out of the sit position. Using a clicker- Puppy is in front of you, trying to figure out how to get the treats. You have the clicker (puppy understands what the clicker is) and some yummy, tiny moist treats. With the clicker, you can shape the behavior instead of waiting for it to happen. So, what are the parts of the "sit" behavior? First, the dogs head goes up, the dogs head leans back, knees bend, and butt tucks down. Then, TADA, you have a "sit". With a clicker, you dont have to force the dog to do anything, you can shape the whole behavior using the clicker. Click for a tiny movment of their head backwards, any lean backwards, any movement of their butt going towards the floor. It sounds complicated if you've never done it, but its not as hard as it sounds. You click for anything that you like, ignore what you dont like.
Now onto the biting...
Yelping like a hurt puppy DOES work, but not all the time. If you continue to allow the behavior after you yelped, its not going to work.If you have a very sensitive dog it might, but for most puppies it wont. The behavior of mouthing and biting itself is reinforcing to the puppy, so even if you yelp or say "no", but allow the dog to continue, its not going to work, because you are still reinforcing the behavior. It would probably be best for you to use a comination of techniques to stop this. I would deffinitely continue with the yelping, becuase that will be a signal to him that he hurt you and was being to rough. You want to teach your puppy bite inhibition. Every dog should learn this, sadly most people dont see any reason to teach it because "my dog wont bite". Even if you have the most friendly, easy going puppy or dog in the world, he will always be a DOG. And when something happens that frightens, excites, hurts, or startles the dog, their teeth is their only defence.
When your puppy starts biting or nipping you, do a high pitch yelp, and IMMEDIATLY fold your arms onto your chest, and turn away from him. For this to work for your puppy, a back-tie would be a big help. A back-tie simply means, when you are playing with him, attach a leash to his harness and tie it to a stationary object (table leg, staircase rail, NOT a chair, you dont want anything that he could possibly move). If you dont have a long enough leash, you can use a light rope. You want him to have plenty of room to run around and play, but you want to be able to easily get out of his reach when he nips. Remember, the reward for his nipping is your attention. Even NEGATIVE attention, is rewarding. Meaning, even if you turn your back to him when he nips and walk away, and he continues to chase you and bite at your feet, that is still attention.
So, here is what I would do: Get lots of his toys, of many different materials. Puppies perfer different materials for biting and chewing, some love kongs, some love ropes, find out what your puppy perfers to chew on. Tie the leash/rope to something stationary, that he cant move. Stretch out the leash/rope to as far as it will go, to figure out where you need to go to get away from him. Attach the leash or rope to his harness, and start playing with him like you normally do. Throw his toys, pet him, whatever he likes to do. The very instant his teeth touch you, yelp, walk to where he cant reach you, and turn your back with your arms folded across your chest. Dont look at him no matter what he does to get your attention, wait a few seconds or until he calms down, and then calmly walk back over to him and continue playing. Turning away, folding your arms, avoiding eye contact, are all calming signals. Calming signals are behaviors dogs use to diffuse a confrontation. By doing this you are telling him if he touches you with his teeth, the game is over. You can try getting some Bitter Apple spray, and putting it on your hands or wherever he bites you, but it doesnt work for all dogs. Its not harmfull at all, it just tastes nasty. For some dogs it works great, for others, it makes them want it more. Its kind of like, when you have a bruise, and you just keep poking it to see if it still hurts. They hate the taste of it, but they just keep biting it anywas lol It is going to take a LOT of patience, and consistancy, to teach him that biting is not an allowed behavior. But just remember, biting and mouthing is 100% absolutly normal puppy behavior. This does not mean he is a "bad dog". He is still very young, and there is PLENTY of time to teach him.
I tried to answer everything in order, sorry if some things are a little mushed together. Maybe I should start answering each question in a separate post lol
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Post by Heather on Jul 20, 2010 22:37:00 GMT -5
I'm going to pop in here, just for a bit . There are some very good sites on clicker training. Training puppies can difficult for the beginner but don't be too hard on yourself. Save your anger and frustration for a breeder who decided to release a pup before he learned bite inhibition from his siblings and his momma. Yes, you've made some mistakes, who doesn't. I've been training dogs for years, trained for the Lion's Foundation for awhile (seeing eye, service and companion dogs). Chelsea is right, ignoring is often the best solution to deal with a nippy pup. Pups want more than anything your love and your attention. They are a pack animal. I treat my ferrets the same way as the puppies. It's difficult I know, but if he bites or even puts his mouth on you, he's being naughty. Good dogs do not mouth. A lot of the toy breeds are never properly trained because they're small. I have a friend who rescues yorkies. You've no idea the number of these little dogs who are turned in because they become unmanageable because their owners don't feel it necessary to do what you're attempting to do. Yorkies are a terrier, this is a strong willed, independent breed. They're cute but they were meant to be what all terriers were meant to be...rodent hunters. They need to be tenacious, afraid of nothing, they're meant to stand down rats. My friend has a little yorkie who was shot by a bunch of cruel boys. She's got wheels....she weighs 2.5 lbs, she's tiny beyond belief...she stood down my irish wolfhound. I almost died laughing. 2 lbs of fur and teeth vs 160 lbs of jello I strongly suggest that you find an obedience puppy class. This is for you, more than your dog . Your dog will learn right alongside of you. I can by handling your dog teach your dog to behave...but....you don't know how to continue or possibly don't even understand what I did, so your dog will go back to doing what he was doing. Both you and your dog comes up loosing. Getting a trainer was well intentioned, unfortunately it usually doesn't work. There are subtle nuances that you learn to do when working with dogs and if you've been doing it long enough, it comes naturally and you can make it look easy. It's only easy because we're no longer thinking about it. I'm no fan of Ceasar but some of what he says and does appears to work, unfortunately, some of what he does also sets up an owner for serious problems or worse to get bitten. You need to find a trainer or a class that you're comfortable working with. Any class that's worth anything will allow you to sit in and watch what is going on. If they won't let you, walk away. If you don't like what you see, walk away. You should see happy dogs, not necessarily good dogs, but dogs working and trying to learn what is being taught and soft methods being used. Treats and praise. The class size (especially puppy classes) should be small. If taught inside, there should be anti-slip flooring and should be enclosed in such a manner as to safely confine any pup who happens to escape from their handlers. The same should apply for any outdoor arena. There should also be minimum distractions. Having them show you how to teach your dog to be a canine good citizen is what you need, but that doesn't happen in one lesson or two. Most puppy classes involve 1/2 hr classes that involve you and your dog working together, getting assistance from the trainer and doing homework when you go home to prepare you for the next weeks class. Your pup will also be allowed to play under supervision with other dogs of varying sizes. This is socialization, something a lot of dogs miss out on but need. You also have to get the rest of your family on board. Everyone has to do the same thing, all the time. There can be no rough play, no mouthing but that applies to everyone. No exceptions. Think of it this way. If your dog didn't weigh just a few pounds, if he weighed, 100 lbs would this behaviour be acceptable. Mistakes were made, no biggee...learn from it and move on. Puppies are hugely resilient, the damage isn't permanent . Find someone who can help you learn to teach your little one. Beware of anyone who says, here hand me the leash (not that they will damage your little one) only that you're not doing the training and it may seem easier to pass it off, in the long run....you both are loosing Good luck and do keep us posted. I hope that you find a solution to your problem, it's not a difficult one yet but it could become one if not treated immediately. Sorry for the length of the post ciao
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Post by rarnold18 on Jul 20, 2010 22:42:13 GMT -5
welcome to having a terrier! They can be VERY stubborn and are usually very smart, almost too smart and will manipulate the situation in their favor if at all possible! I agree 100% with everything Chelsea has written especially being consistant not just you but everyone that comes in contact with the dog. Make sure your guest know what behavior is unacceptable for the dog and how you would like for them to respond before they even come to the house.
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Post by zoologist on Jul 29, 2010 0:39:26 GMT -5
i think you're also going to need to train your family... your sister especially!!! Chelsea you have some great tips! I think I will try to clicker train the ferrets into coming to me. its such a pain when I can't find them
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Post by Heather on Jul 29, 2010 14:11:51 GMT -5
I found it easier to use a squeeky to get the ferrets to come (unless they're deaf : . The clicker I used to work with a couple of my biters, Mad Max in particular. The squeeky worked fine until the puppy came along and all his toys had squeekies in them The ferrets would come running and there would be no treats and snuggles just a big dumb puppy . ciao
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Post by kaiatbh on Aug 18, 2010 10:00:52 GMT -5
I just wanted to thank everyone for their advice! I have been working with Yoni quite a bit, and so has my family. We're still having some consistency issues.... but his behaviour has improved greatly!!
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Post by Heather on Aug 18, 2010 22:45:18 GMT -5
I'm so happy that you're seeing progress in his attitude. Consistency is often the most difficult part of training any furchild, dogs are no exception . Keep at it, a well behaved furchild is always welcomed and appreciated. ciao
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