Shirleyverde's Switching Thread/luci

[Heather]

Name:Shirley Verde
HF Forum Username:Shirleyverde

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets?
On the lazy hammock forum from a great girl that's on this site!

2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
I would like to switch to all raw but not really sure about live prey yet....

3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?
Because i was scared straight reading about kibble (and why not feed my fuzzies the way i eat?) raw and healthy!

4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?
Yes i am totally comitted to this switch!

5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight?
Baxter 10 month male no known problems
Brice 10 month male no known problems
(they are brothers)

6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc)
They have a mix of 8 in 1 ultimate, 8 in 1 ultra, and evo

7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
i am in the process of starting but Brice is a VERY picky eater and i need help but we are starting with ground chicken mixed with a little ferretone and the usual kibble... they both hated any "soup style" anything i gave them

8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
can't think of any now

9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?
every day

10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).

Sorry if this doesn't work i'm still new to the boards i think this is how you post a pic lol:

Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (luci) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to relax and have fun. Your mentor is here to help you on this journey.
ciao

[luci]

Hi Shirley! I'm Luci (my real name is Tara) and I'm going to be your mentor. I'm really excited to get your little furballs onto a raw diet! I think you'll be so pleased with the results once you get there.

A little about me:

My Significant Other and I share our home with two cats and one ferret (my little Ghia passed from juvenile lymphoma just this past August.) all of whom are on a prey model/RMB diet. I had wanted ferrets for as long as I knew they existed, but I waited until I was in my *ahem* mid-thirties before I felt that my life was stable enough to give them all the attention, space and stability they needed. After many long talks, hours on the internet researching, reading Ferrets for Dummies cover to cover, meeting with a ferret rescue organization and learning everything we could... we adopted two girls, Fierra and Ghia, in December 2007. Their previous owner had ditched town and left them with his brother, who liked them, but hadn't planned on having pets. An impending move to California prompted him to contact the rescue organization to have them re-homed.

The poor things were living in a room covered in poop, eating 8-in-1 Ultra meat flavored cereal, sprayed with fresheners to cover their smell, additives in their water to reduce their smell, etc. etc. You get the idea.

It took three months to switch them to EVO kibble. In April, our second cat found us and joined the household. At that point I had been feeding my first cat EVO canned and Evanger's with a couple other high quality canned foods for variety. Once the second cat joined the family the cat food bill was a small fortune. I had already been researching raw diets and this was the kick I needed to jump in and go for it. In early May I switched the cats to raw. No transition needed. I put down raw meat and they ate it. Woo! There were a couple of bumps in the road, but they were easily overcome with a couple of minor changes. I was so excited and by early June I was ready to switch the ferrets.

First tried the old standby: boneless chicken breast. Minced it into the smallest pieces ever. They gagged on it. Tried coating the raw bits in smashed kibble. Nope. I purchased a few jars of Gerber's turkey and chicken baby food. Smeared a bit on their noses. Ghia went for it and happily licked the baby food off my finger. Fierra was totally unconvinced. I scruffed her and put a dab on her tongue. And she loved it! For June and July I spoon fed them chicken or turkey baby food every day in addition to their EVO kibble. In August I started trying to sneak some tiny bits of raw turkey into their baby food. They spit it out every time. I started blanching pieces of meat and adding that to the baby food. Didn't work. I blanched 1" cubes of chicken, cut it into kibble sized pieces and coated it in kibble powder. That was the trick that finally did it. This plus the baby food became their diet for the next four weeks. It was a lot of work, but I knew that eventually I would be plunking down a hunk of meat for them the same way I did for the cats.

I started making the blanched pieces of meat bigger and added less and less kibble and by Sept. 22, 2008 they were completely off kibble. It was then that I joined this forum and became a newbie in the mentor program. You can read the rest of Fierra and Ghia's journey here: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=newbiearchive&action=display&thread=1669

So, give me an update. Are your babies just eating kibble or have you tried introducing some meats as well? Do you make a soup for them?

What meats do you have in the house right now? Many people start with chicken because it's easy, but turkey or pork are also nice options. Always be sure to read labels to avoid additives like salt, brines, spices, etc. in your meats. Feed the best meat your budget will allow and buy organic, pasture fed meats whenever possible to make sure your ferrets are getting optimal nutrition. We'll talk more later about penny pinching ideas to get meats for your business.

It's nice to meet you, Shirley. Let's get this show on the road!

[shirleyverde]

Hi Tara i'm soooo happy to "meet" you!!! i hadn't been on the site in a couple days and got on to see how everyone was and saw your message.
thanks for your story!
so this is where we are so far (we've made ALOT of progress in the last two weeks):
they are eating or have ate ground chicken, ground chicken gizzard, ground veal, ground pork,ground turkey heart, ground liver (not sure what animal it was now) and every meal is mixed with a 70% raw ground something and 30% crushed kibble.
they are eating it like champs finally! and have found that brice LOVES the chicken gizzard and baxter LOVES the ground veal and pork...
every other day i throw in a piece of the smallest part of a chicken wing and they will sometimes eat maybe 30% from the tip up. (well not sure if both of them or just baxter i haven't seen brice eating it yet)
i need to print up a page with the meat, bone, organ ratio or better something to just remind me how many times a week each should be fed so i can come up with a feeding schedule to have the weeks worth of food premade and ready to go (my schedule can get wacky and i like knowing what goes were and when lol)
so now things that i have tried that they just didn't take whatsoever:
any soupies they hate anything liquidy
and pieces of anything they only eat so far the ground.
they are also completely of ferretone on the food.
I also gave them just the ground chicken a couple nights ago without the kibble to see if they would eat it and they did but since i'm not to sure of the nutient intake i'm afraid of getting rid of the kibble completly until i'm under guidence.(so i'm VERY happy to hear from you!!)
and i can't think of anything else so far (excuse my loooong essay hehe)
shirley

[luci]

Excellent! It sounds like you're already doing a wonderful job.

Here's my advice for your next big change: Dump the kibble completely. If they will eat meat without using kibble as a bribe, get rid of it.

Don't worry about trying to attain complete nutrition in every bite. Think of making a balanced diet over a period of time. Most of us use a week as our timetable to fulfill the nutritional needs of the fur. You're aiming for 80% meat (with fat, skin, connective tissue, etc.) 10% bone (this can be achieved using powdered egg shells if we can't get them eating bone right away) 5% liver and 5% other organ (kidney, spleen, thymus, whatever).

Do you feel comfortable with that? We will need to be a bit sly since it looks like your two are not taking your word on what all is edible. That's not at all uncommon. We'll get them comfy with eating just ground meats for a bit and then we'll work toward the next step.

Welcome to the program! Please know that though I am your mentor that you have the expertise of a lot of very ferret savvy people behind us. If I don't know the answer someone else will and none of us are ever too proud to ask for help. We all learn from each other.

[shirleyverde]

thanks so much Luci! i will take out the kibble from tonights dinner and not put it back in... now i need to also get them on freeze dried things (which i forgot to mention) for when i go out of town (twice a year for a week each time)
i ordered today the sampler pack from casey's pantry to see what they like more...
so what comes after the eating ground meats? i guess i will add the egg shells tomorrow aswell to see if they take it... how many eggs should i put in each meal for the two of them and how many times a week?
thanks
shirley

[luci]

Egg shell - you only need about a half teaspoon per pound of meat. If you want to sneak in a tiny pinch to their ground each day that would be fine. Or add it to the whole batch when you grind it (are you grinding your own?) Some ferrets will tolerate more bone than others. We'll keep an eye on the poop and make adjustments if necessary.

Our next step is going to be to make a coarser ground. And then minced. And then diced. And then chunks. What tools do you have? If you don't already have some I recommend getting some shears to dedicate to cutting up meat. It will save your sanity.

Make sure not to make changes too quickly. Ferrets are stubborn buggers and if they catch on that you're trying to pull a fast one they may balk and you'll have to go back a step or two. Very frustrating. Wait until they're happily eating what you're putting in front of them without you cajoling or bribing in any way. We want them to be excited about their meals. Only one change at a time. So right now our change is no kibble. Don't worry about the egg shell for now. Let's see how they act at mealtimes for a couple of days. Keep track of what and how much they're eating each day. Now would be a good time to weigh them and keep track of that weekly as well.

Why don't you tell me a little about your schedule? Are your ferets caged or free roam? Any other furry monsters? Where do you feed the boys?

Your boys are so young that this will seem impossible I'm sure, but one they're on a prey model diet their energy levels will increase. It's a good thing they have each other to burn off all that energy!

[shirleyverde]

ok about the meats- i do grind them myself i love the kitchen so have quite a few different utensils. what i found to ground my meats the best is a small processor i bought years ago to chop veggies (which it did a horrible job of) so i'm happy it works so well with the meats
then for cutting stuff i have a REALLY good knife well a few different ones actually one for cutting through the bones and one to thinly slice meats.
(by the way they did great with dinner they ate more than half of what i gave them (i served waaay to much and they are eating more now) it was pork with no kibble or ferretone.
lunch and dinner will be veal, chicken liver mixed (or they won't eat the liver alone yet but i make a 50/50 mix of it)
and i will go to winn dixie and whole foods tonight to buy more stuff to grind for them for this week.

my schedule: varies each day and week but for the most part it goes like this:
monday, wen, friday: ferret playtime (they live in their ferret nation 142 but get playtime twice a day for the most part in my kids room which is baby and ferret proofed they have plenty of toys and slides to run and play) 7am-8am
8am breakfast time for the fuzzies
9am i leave for school and work (and drop of the kids at school)
5pm i get back prepare dinner
6pm ferret playtime
7pm back to the cage and dinner time for them
tuesday, thur:
7am ferret playtime
8am breakfast
11:30am i leave for school and work
5pm i get home
6pm ferret playtime
7pm dinner
(some days if we wake up really late or the kids are sick the ferrets might miss playtime but this is very rare) my kids won't get dressed unless the ferrets are loose in the room keeping them entertained lol.... (and i hear horror stories about kids stepping on ferrets so they do what we call the ferret walk when the fuzzies are loose and they walk without picking up there feet so no one gets squished!) lol
as far as where they eat in their cage, they stash everything and make a huge mess when they eat and drink (and i would hate for my son to wake up with a chiken wing under his pillow )
i don't have any other animals (other than my kids lol)
and as far as energy bring it on!!! lol i love energetic animals and when they get roudiied up and go crazy we all have a blast it's soooo funny!
ok this morning i will grind up a little bit of egg shell to add just a tiiny bit in their food
-s

[luci]

You may want to consider setting up a feeding den or two in their cage. Ferrets naturally want to eat and store their food somewhere dark and safe, so you may as well use this to your advantage to contain the mess.

Some people use soda boxes and the like and toss them when they get yucky. I needed cat proof feeding dens so I use sterilite plastic bins. I melted a hole in one side and fitted a gutter drainage tube. Fierra is happy to eat and keep all her food in there. There have been times when she thinks she has a better place to stash her food, but the cats quickly find and eat it. She lives, she learns.

How much and how often are you feeding liver? Liver needs to be only 5% of their diet. The vitamin A in liver is fat soluble; not water soluble, so it is possible that it can build to toxic levels in their system. (It would take A LOT of liver to get to this point though, so I'm sure you're fine. I just want you to be aware.)

How many ounces would you say these guys are eating each day?

[shirleyverde]

yes the liver i've only been giving once a week.
as far as how many ounces i have absolutly no idea what could you compare an ounce to? i'm feeding them about a chicken wings worth at each meal and they usually finish it completly should i be feeding more than this?
also i did the meat with no kibble and a pinch of crushed egg shell and they ate it like nothing which is awsome! how long can i keep the crushed egg shells in a container for? i crushed three eggs (i thought it was too little but i was really wrong lol) so i have like a two weeks supply of it...
is there a feeding den thread with pictures on here? i'm not to sure i understand what you mean by it but they do dig under the newspaper to eat under there so it sounds like that would be good for them.

[luci]

I leave food available for my ferret at all times. I usually put an ounce or so in the den at a time. She generally eats 2-3 ounces a day, but that can definitely vary depending on the time of the year and such. Fierra is only 1lb 12oz though. I'm sure your boys weigh more and since they're young they need lots of food to grow. They're good at self-regulating, so overeating really isn't an issue. When they're full they start stashing. Since they're mostly caged I would leave them with food all day. If they're picky about freshness you could put in a hunk of food that's ready to eat and then another frozen hunk that they can eat later in the day once it's thawed. It's good to get an idea of how much they're eating each day though even as just a point of reference. Do you have a kitchen scale you could use? I bought a cheapie scale for $3 at Target for portioning out meals. If you don't have one you can figure it out this way: 6oz in a cup, so 1/2 cup is 3oz, so 1/4 cup is 1.5oz. Since you're doing ground that should be accurate enough. It gets a little tougher to do it that way once we're on to chunks.

Egg shells will keep indefinitely. I have a little stash in a baby food jar that is probably six months old now. As long as they're good and dry they'll be fine for a long, long time. Three eggs should last you at least a month I would think.

For feeding dens all the ferrets really want is privacy, darkness and one entrance/exit so they can defend their stash from "intruders". Any cardboard box that's big enough for them to get in and turn around is fine.

Here's a video of my two girls in one of the feeding dens I made: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=enrich&thread=2239&page=1
The opening to get in is where their butts are and you can see the tube that is their entrance tunnel behind the den against the back of the cage. Since you don't have other animals in the house you don't need anything nearly that elaborate.

[luci]

There used to be a stickied thread with photos of other members feeding dens, but I can't find it. I'll ask the other mentors if they know where it is.

[shirleyverde]

super cute! now i get the den... i bought a little box for the boys the other day hoping i could get them to use it instead of just the newspaper put down and they ended up using it as a bed so maybe i could turn it upside down and make a hole on one side and use it for a den...

[shirleyverde]

ok this morning we had a 50% liver and 50% veal mix with some crushed eggshells... they ate it all (and i served almost double what i usually give them) now one of them still has watery poops but the other had small hard poops... i'm kind of confused as to what to do now?
for dinner i gave them one chicken wing (just the small part) which they probably won't eat just stash but i want to keep trying as they will nibble at it for a while... and i gave them chicken in small little cubes with no egg shell.

[luci]

Weird poops are going to happen during the switch. Don't get too worried about it unless the diarrhea goes on for more than a day or two and the other one shows signs of distress. Liver will cause runny poop. Bone (or egg shell) can cause constipation. So we'll find the balance eventually. I usually mix in a teaspoon of cooked pumpkin/squash purée when I feed liver just to keep the poops from being too yucky. Pumpkin works great for both diarrhea and constipation. If they were eating whole prey the fur and feathers would be acting as an intestinal bottlebrush and that's what the pumpkin acts as for feeding prey model.

So are they eating only raw ground now?

[shirleyverde]

ok i got it next time i will add some pumpkin on liver day...
i am very happy to say that yes they are eating completely raw ground everything (chicken, veal, pork, chicken gizzard, hearts, and liver)
and even better the cubed up chicken from last night they devoured and again i doubled the portion i would normally give them (since there isn't any more kibble in there)
is it bad or confusing to them if i switch from ground to cubed a few times? (i had ground up enough for about a week and a half) or maybe i can mix the ground with the chunks?)
i can't believe how good they are doing with this!! it was soooo hard the first few weeks and i almost gave up for fear of them starving and now they LOVE it!
so i have two more questions
1) where do i go from here? whats next?
2) i will be receiving the freeze dried sampler pack from caseys closet and a bag of duck duck goose from there and would like them to be used to that incase of emergencies how do i get that into the routine aswell?
(i just read the ingredients of the duck duck goose and it has a few fruits in there is that ok? i thought they should be on only meats?)
-s