Jakk's Switching Thread

[Forum Administrator]

Name: Jakk
HF Forum Username: jakkfurret

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets?
---Originally I looked into raw diets for my mother's dog, after doing all the research I did she didn't do it but it empowered me to feed all my animal raw if I could. So when i got my first ferret Cooper I knew that I wanted to drive head first into it.
2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
---I want to feed primarily raw meat and bones with whole prey maybe once every other week. My SO is not okay morally with with whole prey but has agreed for every other week at the most. Although I hate the idea of feeding kibble I am afraid that if I had to part with my trio for some reason (ex. vacationing in a non-ferret friendly state) that I would not be able to find someone willing to feed then raw. But I do not know if this fear is irrational or if it would be benificial to keep at least a small portion of kibble in their diets.
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?
---I really want my little ones to have the best I can physically give them.
4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as committed. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?
---Yes I am completely committed to providing my trio with the best I can give them no matter how long it may take.
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight?
---Cooper - 8 months old, male, and might be a little pudgy but I don't have anything to properly compare him to
---Kasrah - We honestly have no idea how old, female, and no know health problems, she is extremely underweight
---Polly/Kitt (name not set yet) - We honestly have no idea how old, female, may have an old spinal injury and may have other issues related to past mistreatment, she is extremely underweight
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc)
---I currently feed all three Wellness Auper5 Kitten kibble. Cooper eats raw chicken breast as a treat and has eaten a raw chicken leg meat but left the bone. Kasrah and Polly/Kitt gets a soup mix made from kibble and chicken broth because they are just so skinny. Prior to the girls coming to us they were fed nothing but Dad's Cat Food (link)
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
---I have never with the girls but Cooper is used to eating raw chicken treats, never to be full time, just to get him used to the taste and texture.
8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
---I am a college student with a fairly tight budget but I have access to a grocery store that provides cheap but good quality meats and a huge variety of cuts all the way down chicken feet and turkey heads. Polly/Kitt and Kasrah are both rescues so my focus is going to be on getting them back to normal condition before anything else so I may have to start them a while after starting Cooper.
9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?
---I take my computer with my everywhere so I have access from 7am-9pm (eastern time) everyday of the week and from 12-9pm on weekends.
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).
Cooper


Kasrah


Polly/Kitt

[sherrylynne]

Hello there! I'm Sherrylynne, and I'll be your mentor for their switch
First, a little about me. I'm 51, and have my own housecleaning business here in Calgary Alberta. I have 4 cats, ranging in age from 4yrs, to 15(only one would eat raw, unfortunately :. I also have 8 ferrets. Boris and Vincent came first, two brothers, a sable and albino. Then Sinnead. I got her when she was 2. She's now 3, and adrenal. She's on lupron, and having her surgery at a later date.
After that came my first deaf ferret, Lucrezia. A marked DEW. Then two foster ferrets, whom we fell in love with and adopted- Zeus and Athena, both two years old.
After that, a little abused ferret we called Willow. She was the worst fear biter I've had, although now she's becoming a sweetie . Lastly, Emily. 1 month younger than Willow, and those two have bonded strongly. She's the only one Willow wasn't terrified of.
While transitioning the first four, Boris was my hold out. EVERYTHING I gave him was poison, in his mind . Worst little drama queen I've seen yet . Twisting to get away, gagging, retching- he did all of it! Then one day- he ate it! Every single piece on the plate ! Those four haven't looked back. Although Boris would still be a kibble head if I let him.
The next two for transitioning were the fosters. Until we adopted them, I could only supplement with raw. So in order not to cause unnecessary tummy upsets(mixing kibble and raw too closely can cause some problems- more about that later), I'd give them raw one day, and kibble on a different day. So, by the time we adopted, they had no problem with 100% raw diet.
With Willow, I brought her home, and she flatly refused to eat the totally ferret kibble, so I went back to the pet store and got her a small bag of the crap they were feeding them there, and brought it home. I tried to give her some, but she just upset the dish. So- I tried her with some chicken breast. She ate it up! Hasn't had kibble since . Emily came to us as a raw fed ferret, so no issues there.
That's me and mine in a nutshell

The reason I started looking a raw feeding was something my vet said to me. I was, at the time, giving them small pieces of fruit for treats. She told me that was VERY bad for them, and in fact, some studies have started to link early feeding of sugars with insulinoma later in life. So- I started thinking. Kibbles are full of carbs. It's all those grains/veg/fruits in them. Those are converted to sugars by the body. To me then, sugar= potential insulinoma.
So, I started checking out various diets. I had no idea what an obligate carnivore was at the time. I found out! Not much wonder there was soooo much poop in the box! I may as well have been tossing my money in there. They can't process anything that's not meat based! So I feed meat
Their fur is softer, their energy levels are amazing- no mad rushes then crashing. Even my three year old's teeth are amazing. No plaque whatsoever Healing is faster, and if they do get ill, they have more reserves to rely on than when they were just kibble fed!
And there is a LOT LESS POOP!!!! Yay!
I'm really looking forward to helping to get yours on a more natural diet, and healthier. I've been reading about Cooper enjoying some raw, and, I believe it was Polly who also stole some chicken? I guess we'll have to really get to work on Kasrah, then!
Do you already feed them some form of soups? That may be our best bet if Kasrah doesn't want anything besides her kibbles.

[Jakk]

Thank you so much Sherrylynne! I am so exited!

I tried soups with Cooper originally but he wouldn't touch them so I had to have feed him little shreds and now he will eat quarter sized chunks, any bigger and he will just stash them. Polly is the one that stole chicken and the bone from Copper but she only licked at the bone, we have some concerns about some rather nasty looking teeth (should I send or attach photo's?). Kasrah is nicknamed Menace, she is already a problem child! She is convinced anything other than kibble with poison her, including soup made from her kibble! Also Cooper is a food lover, he will go dish to dish and clean them if we let him. He will let others eat, but he is just so large that he will literally body block the entire dish. His food loving ways have us a little worried that he is overweight but with all the websites stating huge weight ranges we have no idea how to tell. Is there a general indicator to tell if he is in fact overweight?
I am full of questions, I want to be sure I do am doing it right. Is there a meat that I can substitute Cornish Game Hen with? It is one of the most expensive types of poultry (aside from duck) at all the local stores. But the recipe you sent be on the thread about Polly calls for it.

[sherrylynne]

You can substitute any type of meat you can think of! Quite literally. Mine eat the following, at various times(depends on what's on sale ): beef, pork, chicken, turkey, lamb, goat, ox, bison, rabbit, cornish hen, goose, duck, as well as the variety of whole prey they get. They also get various cuts of the above meats. As long as they are cheap(on sale, last day, etc.), or I also get some meats slightly freezer burned from friends freezers
With your newest ferrets, I think a vet check is in order when you can, so Polly's teeth can be looked at as well. They will probably need a scaling at the least, and if they've been that bad for a long time, she may need some extractions as well. She'll be able to cope with raw even if she does, don't worry about that.
Ok, let's get started! Since Cooper takes cornish hen quite well, pick up some chicken for him. Cut the meat in his usual size. Did Polly actually eat the meat she stole, or just stash it? If she ate it, do the same with her, same size(we will move them on to larger portions gradually).
If she didn't eat it, we'll start her with Kasrah. Using the mix they are used to, puree a chicken thigh(meat only). Mix maybe a 1/4 tsp into their existing soup. It shouldn't be enough for them to really notice if your blend it all together in a blender. What we are aiming at is gradually moving them to a totally raw soup after a bit.
If it is, use the scruff 'n' stuff method Here's a good example of what I mean:
That's me trying to convince Boris he actually likes ground lamb
Hey- it worked!

[Jakk]

So I cut up a chicken leg today (don't have thighs in the freezer) for dinner. I happened to have some diced up veal breast in my fridge it was too high in fat for my SO and I to eat, so I pureed it to give to Polly and Kasrah to help with their weight gain.
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Cooper - Is being a spoiled brat, he ate a good amount of chicken but would go to stash it unless he was on my lap! I wasn't holding him or anything, he just stood on my lap and chewed away until the piece was gone then he would get up, grab another, and eat it on my lap.

Polly - Ate three chunks of chicken and about 1/2 tablespoon of the veal puree. I had to hold her and give it all to her little by little off of my finger or she would take a mouthful and stash it back behind the entertainment center.

Kasrah - Wouldn't touch the soup but when I offered her a small sliver of both the chicken and the veal she ate it cautiously. I got her to eat 3 tiny pieces of chicken and just a finger full of the veal.
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I stored the uneaten portions for breakfast tomorrow. I also picked up some organic, all meat, no sugar baby food to use in making up some more soup that hopefully will get eaten.

[sherrylynne]

Believe it or not- they have made a great start! I'm impressed! I'm sure you know it's a really good idea to feed soupies on a regular basis, so they are accustomed to it. Frequently if a ferret becomes ill, they won't eat their regular food, but will take a more liquid diet.
My guys still like to eat in my lap, given the chance. It's also a great bonding technique
As I'm sure you know, the transitioning can be fairly time intensive. But it pays off big time! Your ferrets become healthier, stronger. AND you get a lot of one on one time with them
One thing that frequently helps is to let them get a bit hungry first. I removed the kibble at night before I went to bed, and then fed them the raw when I got up in the morning. Some do it the other way around, removing the kibble when they left for work, then letting the ferrets out to play when they get home for a while, before offering the raw. Either way works well. If you aren't comfortable with doing that right now, remove it for about 4 hours before offering the raw.

[Jakk]

**sorry for the late update I was out with friends**

I didn't leave kibble in the cages overnight so this morning ALL THREE devoured the veal/chicken mix!!

Polly and Kasrah ate a good 1/2 cup of the mixture between the two of them for breakfast. I have a sneaking suspicion that Polly has been fed raw at some previous point in her life, she gulps it down with more passion than she does with kibble. She even seemed to be encouraging Kasrah to eat the meat.

Cooper ate about 1/4 cup by hand and 1/8 cup on his own before going into stash mode.....only for me to find him pigging out on nearly 2 days worth of kibble he had stashed UNDER the entertainment center a mere 5 minutes later . Our little boy has overeating issues....seems like that is all he does, if food is out his head is in the dish.

During the afternoon I came out with more and Cooper ate a little more when I hand offered him some, Kasrah would take a huge mouthful then dart across the room to stash it but didn't eat anything, and Polly ate a little out of the dish before heading back to sleep more (she sleeps a ridiculous amount even for a ferret).

Dinner was a complete failure with raw on my behalf, I was dragged out of my house at 5pm by friends and didn't get home till 12am so my little ones had kibble tonight. I didn't want to give raw and have them stash it while unmonitored.....finding stashed meaty bits on cage cleaning day is no fun

[sherrylynne]

Wow! I don't think this switch is going to take that long . It's possible with Polly that she simply knows what her body needs to recuperate from whatever happened to her. When we got Willow at 5 months, she'd never had raw. First day in the house, she refused any kibble(including what she'd been eating at the store), but devoured the chicken bits I gave her. For her sleeping patterns, she could simply be recovering from not only a poor diet, but from her previous injury. Also, some ferrets switched to a raw diet to tend to sleep more until their bodies regulate themselves. She could also simply be a bit older as well. There is a thread on here about aging them by their teeth: holisticferret.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=care&action=display&thread=3650
For the next couple of days, remove the kibble at night, let them pig out on the raw in the morning, and when they go back in the cage, put the kibble back in. Remove it again a couple hours before giving them the raw in the evening. See how they do, and if you can, measure the kibble before you put it in, and after you remove it. That will give you an idea how much of it they are eating.
Also, with the stashing, you can try to get them accustomed to a feeding den, if there is room in the cage. Once they are on large chunks, it won't be as much of a concern, because they will be easier to find on a daily basis

[Jakk]

Breakfast was more of lunch today. All three got the remaining chicken/veal mix and soup made from kibble, chicken leg meat, beef baby food, and water. The meat was a hit and only Polly was fearless when faced with the soup. Cooper lept onto the edge of the bowl as I stood in the animal room and watched his bowl of soup slop through the bars and all down the front of my critter nation...then he licked it off the bars. Kasrah was just stubborn and despite me giving it to her by hand she flat out refused to swallow. After an hour of rather vigorous playtime on Kasrah and Cooper's behalf, I gave everyone kibble for "lunch". Cooper scarfed it down (like he does with any food product), Polly ate a little then went back to her 6 hour nap, and Kasrah ate the kibble like normal but didn't eat as much as normal. I am going to measure everything exactly tomorrow to see just what their eating habits really are.

I check out that thread and used those guidelines on all three. I know Cooper is between 8-9 months and his teeth matched up, all opaque. Kasrah's are a little under 1/2 translucent, so I am thinking around 2-3 years. Polly was a little shocking her teeth were a little over 1/3 translucent, making her around 7-8 years old! At the same time I have no idea if their previous conditions could have effected their teeth coloration. I know that both have some crazy build up and discoloration where Copper sports a set of clean pearly whites. I decided that whatever age they are, I am going to love them everyday until it is their time to leave, be that in many years or only a few months.

I have a really odd question about some random cuts of meat I found in the local grocery store. They carry pig and chicken feet, pig ears, tripe, and tongue. Would any of these cuts would be beneficial to include in the future?

[sherrylynne]

The only kind of meat they can't have is one they adamantly refuse to eat For two of mine- that's beef. For the others? With coaxing, they'll eat almost anything.
In other words- yes, they can have any meat protein source you can find. I'd just go easy on fish, because of toxin buildups in it. Two of mine adore smelts, but I only give them every so often, as a treat.
If the tripe is white, though, it's got no nutritional value. It's all been bleached out. Green tripe, on the other hand, is very beneficial. IF you can get them to eat it, or even go near it, for that matter I loved Guili's description of green tripe best of all. It was "Green tripe smells like what would happen if a cow vomited it's own feces:
I understand your feelings about Polly's possible age, too. With that chart, we found out our supposed 3yr old Sinnead is more likely 5-6.
If they are eating the mix you make, in a day or two, start decreasing the amount of kibble in the mix, and upping the meat. Just by a small amount, so as not to put them off it.
With Kasrah, you may have to scruff her, and just dab it on the end of her nose a few times. They will generally lick it off, and that gives them the taste of it.

[Jakk]

Today Cooper and Polly finished off an entire chicken leg and I used the scuff method to get Kasrah to eat more of the soup. All three slept through playtime today. Winter has hit our area (high today was 55) and so our apartment is rather chilly since we only have a single room heater in the living room. I have a theory that they are hibernating till we figure out how to make things warm up. Polly and Cooper went for the fatty and skin pieces first which was interesting, they picked them out from the pile, set them aside, then ate them. Hopefully tomorrow we can get our space a bit warmer and the little ones will be more willing to play and eat raw.

[sherrylynne]

One thing you have going for you right now is that winter appetites will be kicking in soon, if they haven't already. That will make them more willing to try something new.
That is great that Polly and Cooper are taking to the meat like they are! How big are you cutting the pieces for them?
And good work with Kasrah. Keep going with her like you are right now.

[Jakk]

I fed veal today and it was much more of a hit than the chicken. I cut up the meat and some of the fat into two batches, 1 inch chunks for Cooper and 1/2 inch chunks for the girls. Cooper ate like a pig and finished off about 1/2 cup of his chunks and about 1/4 cup of the smaller chunks still just standing on my lap. I found out that if her goes to stash a piece I just have to pick him up and he will chew and swallow it. Polly ate about 1/2 cup of the small chunks given by hand and 2 large chunks of dense fat that she stole from the trash pile Kasrah was throwing a huge tantrum today and would run from me and hiss at me and the other little one if any of us came to close to her hiding space. It took her 3 hours to get out of her funk and come out to eat. She only ate about 1/8 of a cup of the small pieces before getting weird again and escaped to protect her entertainment center. I put out 1 cup of kibble total today and only 1/4 cup of kibble was eaten between all THREE by bedtime! Cooper chose to eat veal over a bowl of kibble today and flat out ignored the dish that was left out. Kasrah was the only one I saw making kibble runs to and from the dish.

[sherrylynne]

Oh, wow! I can't believe they are already eating larger chunks! What a little monkey Kasrah is I'm guessing we can say she's got a wee bit of a temper when she doesn't get her own way?
Alright. With Cooper and Polly, I'm going to get you to push a bit. Can you try feeding them in their cage, or feeding den, or wherever they are going to wind up eating? Let them stash there as much as they like. The reason for this is 1) to wean them off the hand/lap feeding on a regular basis. and 2) so we can start to introduce bone into their diet.
With Kasrah, you may have to decrease the size a wee bit if she's not doing well with the 1/2" chunks.
But, I honestly admit- I didn't think she'd be eating any chunks for a couple of weeks yet.

[Jakk]

So I minced about 1/2 cup worth of veal and added lamb baby food to the mix for Kasrah since she seems to like the baby food favor. She ate about half then got disinterested, I was able to get her to eat about 1 tablespoon more by hand before she hit her handling limit and I let her go do her own thing. I fed Polly and Cooper in their cages. I put 2 Tbsp. forth of the chunks out for each (live in separate cages). Cooper only ate a few pieces before stashing them all in the far corner of his den then going back to sleep, periodically waking up to snack. Polly ate it all in one shot like she has never eaten before, then made a complete raucous till I came back and gave her the rest of Kasrahs baby food mix which she ate till she decided to nap again. She did seem to have a little trouble with the tougher meaty chunks and would give up on them after a while of gnawing. Once I cut the meat only bits into smaller pieces she did just fine with chewing and swallowing. Between all of them only 1/2 cup kibble was consumed out of the 1 cup given. They don't seem to be eating as much in total which worries me slightly. But the veal is pretty high in fat and they eat up the fattiest bits first before moving to the muscle tissue.

Tomorrow is a chicken day, the veal has all been eaten.