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Post by lnsybean44 on Nov 16, 2009 17:43:56 GMT -5
Hey everyone, I have been lurking on the breeder threads for a while. I was wondering what types of euthanasia you use on your feeder colonies. CO2 seems popular but I have heard it is not a fun death by suffocation. Does anyone have any first hand experiences they would like to share? or other methods that can be used?
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Post by mustelidmusk on Nov 19, 2009 19:16:10 GMT -5
I'm killing mice at our investment home in Utah - I just ***HATE*** doing this since I had pet mice when I was a kid. SO...the most humane thing I've found is the snap trap - instant/clean. I feed the catches to the wildlife on the property - mostly ravens. That way I can at least say that they go back into the wild rather than into the garbage dump That being said, I have seen a licensed wild life rehabber perform a mercy killing on a rabbit - she was able to apply pressure to the neck in a very special way, I beleive to cut off the blood flow to the brain. It was pretty quick and seemed relatively painless, although I cannot really tell since the poor rabbit was almoat ripped in half to begin with. I don't know how this procedure is done, and mice may be too small. However, a wildlife rehab center may be able to give you an idea on how to dispatch prey animals humanely. I know that where I volunteered, a quick blow to the head worked very quickly. Places that rehab raptors go through a LOT of prey. I would start by calling a raptor rehab. place. I never could get used to the idea of putting mice in the blender to feed the babies. -jennifer
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Post by Chelsea on Nov 19, 2009 20:17:48 GMT -5
I dont breed mice right now, i tried before but it didnt work out well. But, when I do feed them mice, they are live from the pet store, and the ferrets do the killing. I could never put them in the freezer or use the gas chambers, to me that is just not natural. Its a slow, painful, and unnatural death. True, when i give them to the ferrets in a tub it isnt really natural because the poor mouse doesnt have a chance, but it is natures way, predator needs to kill prey to survive. At least the mouse has an idea of what is happening. Id hate to think of them suffocating in a bin, even though having their neck snapped by a weasel doesnt seem much better. Im happy that Jake is pretty good at killing. Once he gets them by the neck he gives one big shake and wacks it against the ground, and that seems to kill them instantly. I could never kill feeder animals, just my opinion, Id rather let my little carnivores do it the all natural way.
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Post by Forum Administrator on Nov 21, 2009 4:07:54 GMT -5
I do not breed but on the few occasions that we have had live prey in our home I had my boyfriend quickly and cleanly snap the mouse's neck. I don't want them to experience the fear of being attacked by a ferret. I hold no bias against those who feed their ferret's live prey, but I personally can't handle watching my ferrets kill another animal---mainly because they suck at it and it takes them to long to get the job done. I only ever had one ferret that I fed live prey to and that was because a.) I worked in a petstore and got free mice and b.) She killed them in under 5 seconds, very quick, very cleanly.
If I bred my own mice I would probably do a co2 chamber, because I think my boyfriend would kill me if I asked him to snap the necks of a million mice each year.
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Post by josiesmom on Nov 21, 2009 8:42:48 GMT -5
Many of you will likely think me brutal after this post, but I rather think I am pragmatic. Before continuing reading I want to disclaim: If you have NO intentions of actually learning how to dispatch feeder animals READ NO FURTHER! ; > > > if you intend upon reading this and then flaming me - I am IMPERVIOUS to such comments - although I MAY fire back ; > > > If you are the least squeamish in frank details of death READ NO FURTHER! > > > This is posted as an answer to a question many people often wonder about but do not ask. > > > Are you still reading? good! Then consider my flame suit zipped up tight and I;ll consider that you are at least interested in learning what other people have experienced! For ME the most "humane" way to dispatch a mouse is to let the ferret do it! They have all the tools necessary to dispatch a rodent or small bird (chick, etc). Yes, pet ferrets need a learning time, but if you offer them enough opportunities they quickly develop the skills and the prey never knew what happened! Small rabbits can be done by them as well, large rabbits would seem to take a bit more effort on the part of the ferret - but I'm not positive on that because I haven't seen it done. No, suffocation is NOT a humane way to go - gasping and straining for non-existent oxygen.. Which leads me to another way to QUICKLY dispatch small prey, but may not be as humane as you think. And that is "Cervical Separation" ie - snapping the spinal cord in the neck. That is likely what Jennifer observed when the wildlife rehabber dispatched the rabbit. This is also waht happens in a "snap trap". Cervical separation can be done in a couple ways: Grasp the animal in two hands, one encircling the head, one encircling the shoulders. Placing the thumbs knuckle to knuckle - rather like you'd grasp a pencil in order to break it in two. The thumb should be at the BACK of the base of the skull - where the skull meets the "atlas" vertebrae. Using a very quick sharp movement while pinching inward around the cervical spine, jerk both hands in opposite directions. The tough part to this is, like your ferrets, it takes a learning curve to develop the proper technique and of course the prey objects to such attempts! Another method of "cervical separation" is to incorporate a sharp corner of say a sink or counter or table. Holding the prey by the nether regions ( in the case of a rodent by the tail) - swing the prey forcefully and rapidly against the corner edge. Done properly it is basically a one handed method of cervical separation that quickly breaks the spine. BUt this too requires a hands on learning curve which many people cannot stomach. Especially when seeing the aftermath of a poorly aimed swing which bashes the poor rodent's skull in, but doesn't kill it outright, or the blow impacts further down the spine, breaking its back but not resulting in a kill. These hands on learning curves are likely why many people opt for a CO2 chamber. But personally I prefer to leave it in the paws and maws of my ferrets! They get to do what comes naturally to them, the prey is very quickly dispatched and ferrets don't feel one bit guilty about taking the life of their prey! Being as I am NOT a cruel cold hearted person I DO treat my feeder animals politely and humanely up to their moment of dispatch. They get clean, safe, fun places to live with healthy food and the time and ability to socialize among themselves. WHen moved to other bins for cleaning or breeding they are handled respectfully and gently. Many often become very relaxed in my hands and begin grooming themselves os will doze off! But I force myself to NOT create that "pet" bond with them! When they get selected as dinner guests I say a prayer over each one of them: "Thank you mouse for the nourishment you are about to share with my ferret." Sounds silly I guess, but I DO appreciate the fact that their healthy bodies will become my ferret's healthy body.
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Post by lnsybean44 on Nov 21, 2009 10:47:15 GMT -5
What do you do if your ferrets dont end up killing the mouse? At that point would you use cervical dislocation?
I originally was looking at a CO2 chamber but as you have said I dont like the idea of suffocation. I know there is a way to do it so they they pass out first, before they suffocate but that is still not a fun way to go. We use isoflorine in my research lab but I dont know how safe that would be to eat for the ferrets.
Lastly, I have seen mentioned once or twice that you can't kill pinkies with CO2, would you be required to snap necks for these guys?
Thank you all for responding.
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Post by mustelidmusk on Nov 21, 2009 11:22:13 GMT -5
We just invested in a "Rat Zapper" which electrocutes the mice when they cbridge the gap to complete the electrical circuit with their bodies to get the bait. It's supposed to be very effective. It's not cheap. I expect your ferrets will learn to dispatch mce efficiently. nce you get some good hunters, the others will learn from them - espcially young ferrets...they learn quickly. Being the wuss that I am, I'd have a rough time with the learning curve. Kim, I love that you say a "prayer" for each feeder animal. It's like when I have to kill the mce infesting our Utah investment home....I offer them to the wildlife (the ravens love them) so I feel that their deaths have not been a waste. I too have a little "prayer" I give along with the offering of the mice to the desert. I cannot throw them in the trash!!! They deserve better than that even though I have to take their lives. -jennifer
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Post by josiesmom on Nov 21, 2009 12:18:39 GMT -5
Insybean,
I've not run into a problem with the mice NOT being finished off by the ferret. I think the key ( and I beleive I mentioned it elsewhere on this board... somewhere...) is to be certain NOT to overmatch the new ferret to the prey! Offer them defenseless pinkies first. This allows them to kill without the prey trying to defend itself and biting back or clawing at the ferret!
Often introducing one or two prey items to two or more ferrets will definitely trigger the predator mode.
But starting small and working your way up the age range as your ferret's skills improve will allow the ferret to learn quickly and be easiest on the prey!
I offer this learning opportunity to all my ferrets. Some take to this with relish and are visually disappointed when I offer them prekilled, thawed mice. Faylene (RIP) was about the most timid of my ferrets and preferred NOT to actually kill the mouse, but would eat it after it was dead. Faylene too came to me as an elderly adoptee so the natural approach was new to her.
Mimzy has eaten some thawed rat pups if I put heart "juice" on them - but I doubt she'll take to killing. Time will tell though.
Roman is a superb predator he incorporates his huge fore paws into holding the mouse still for the killing bite.. Fizzle is a poor hunter - if the mouse manages to run away she cannot locate it unless it runs straight in front of her again; she is an uncoordinated predator and often chomps the wrong end of the mouse, but is tenacious and really gets ticked off if the mouse manages to get a bite in before the killing blow! Crystal is hunter/predator extraordinaire - no mouse escapes her (and often neither does the mouse that another ferret is after); Crystal gets extremely wound up when in predator mode - tail poofs, she chuckles and is constantly looking for one more kill! Windy is very business like in her approach: kill the mouse, hide, eat, beg for another. Bugsy has good days and bad days on hunting - usually he ends up having his mouse stolen from him by either Roman or Crystal then he runs about trying to steal them back. He is a hit or miss hunter - usually miss, but very happy to locate a kill that Crystal has disaptched and tucked away.
Crystal is extremely fast and I've often wondered if she had the opportunity exactly how many mice could she kill in in a specific time frame and would she keep going until they were all dispatched? Likely yes, she'd keep going. I think Roman and Windy would too although they wouldn't be as fast as Crystal.
Don't forget that historically ferrets were used LONG before cats were as the original "verminator"! Ferrets can get places where cats cannot and ferrets never give up! Killing rodents is NOT a new concept for the ferret - killing rodents is a skill that encouraged their domesticity!
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Post by goingpostal on Nov 21, 2009 16:32:17 GMT -5
Out of my 6 I only have one that's quick at killing the mice so she gets the job, the rest just don't seem to get the idea very well and take too long. Now Pandora, she's got them dead as fast as I drop them in the tub.
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Post by lnsybean44 on Nov 24, 2009 12:50:09 GMT -5
Hmm, I only have two and both have pretty low prey drives. Newt would probably be able to throw his weight around a bit but Luxo is super skittish and would probably run from the noise.
Where do you let them hunt? In the bath tub?
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Post by fuzzymom on Nov 24, 2009 19:50:42 GMT -5
I use two methods to kill feeder animals.
1) Let the ferrets do the killing. Nature intended them to hunt down, kill, and eat their prey and the ferrets can learn to do this with some practice. I have two ferrets that will actively hunt live prey items. The other three will eat whole prey but not hunt it. We are working on that. It is not cruel and it provides the ferrets with a fun activity.
2) Gas chamber. I used to have one, but got rid of it. If I start breeding rodents again I will need to get another one due to the fact I feed my snakes frozen/thawed rodents so killing feeder rodents is a must. Take one of those igloo coolers. The tops are almost air tight but not completely. This will allow very tiny amounts of gas to escape so the gas doesn't build up too much. Then take a kritter keeper (those plastic "cages" with the plastic vented lids) Make sure it can easily fit in the cooler on its side, the vented lid facing the other end of the cooler. Place rodents in cooler. Don't overload the cooler either. Too many rodents and it won't work. Get some dry ice. Break off a small chunk, just big enough to fit in the kritter keeper. Then place it in the kritter keeper with the vented lid shut tightly. This protects the rodents from touching the dry ice but still allows the gas to escape the keeper. Make sure you put the rodents in FIRST. If you put the dry ice in first, the cooler will start building up CO2 before you put the rodents in and this will cause them to start suffocating while awake. Once the dry ice is in, shut the lid. The dry ice goes from solid to gas at a nice even rate. The CO2 will begin displacing the oxygen, pushing it up. It does this slowly though, so the rodents will begin to fall asleep due to low oxygen levels. Once asleep, the CO2 levels continue to climb to dangerous levels and the mice die in their sleep. It is a commonly used method of reptile keepers and is the most humane way other than cervical dislocation which if done properly, is instant. If done wrong, it causes extreme pain to a still aware rodent.
If you wish to stun a rodent, you can use the flicking method on small mice. Simply give them a hard thwack on the back of their skull. Make sure you do it hard though. They will black out and you can offer it. DO NOT do this for large mice or rats. You can't flick their skulls hard enough to cause them to black out. They will simply start convulsing instead.
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Post by nwheather on Feb 26, 2010 7:23:37 GMT -5
I am way late in responding, but it's been a while since I've been on here...
I agree with Kim, about letting the ferrets dispatch the mice. They are much more efficient than cats at doing so. They are quick, they don't mess around.
The babies (Mystic & Majik-now two years old) had to learn it, but it didn't take long for them to catch on. Ace has been a pro at from the first time I offered him a live mouse. Flash & China are good too.
I have a ferret room, that is pretty much mouse proof as well...meaning, they cannot get out. I have let mice loose in the tunnels, they start exploring the tunnels, then I turn the ferrets loose. It gives them a chance to actually hunt the mice. Trust me, they smell the rodents as soon as I enter the room with them, so they know that it will be time to eat soon.
If you do not want to let your ferret dispatch the mouse/mice, another way (for you to do it) is to hold the mouse by it's tail, take a pencil, place it across the back of the mouse's neck, applying pressure on the pencil, pull on the tail, & it instantly snaps the neck of the mouse.
I stopped breeding my own feeders because I knew I was going to be moving, so my weasels get mice & chicks from RodentPro. Breeding your own is less expensive, & I do plan on starting back up, after I get settled, but it it may be a while.
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Post by lnsybean44 on Feb 26, 2010 16:51:18 GMT -5
I wish I had seen this earlier lol. My boys will have to "hunt" in the bathroom if I decide to get it a try. What did you do if they botched the hunt. How did you decide who to let hunt or not. Both of the boys have a decent prey drive I am just concerned. I was thinking about getting a small amount of isoflorine from the lab just in case so I can knock them out quick and pop them in the CO2 chamber. And then not feed that particular mouse.
I think with my dads help I can set up a CO2 chamber with an adustable Co2 tank so I can knock them out then crank it up. I will have to discuss it with him.
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