Nipper, Spaz, and Bakemano's Switch

[buzzonesbirdie]

just letting you know i got your post
have fun

and i am happy for you and your new baby

talk to you this weekend

[buzzonesbirdie]

HI,

Just wondering if you were back.

[crystalineshadow]

Alrighty, I'm back now. My mother talked me into staying a couple of extra days. The ferrets had their last bowl of food Tuesday morning (I had anticipated it to run out mid-day Friday if they were eating 2 of the oversized bowls per day so obviously they are eating less than that). I'll have to run to the store when I wake up and get some ground turkey to make more mush for them. I am going to try putting pork in these bowls as their meat. I have a little bit of chicken left that I cut up before I left and if it is still good then I'll mix half pork and half chicken until that is gone. Hopefully they will like the pork as my BF spent the grocery money while I was gone so everybody will be living off of mostly what is in the freezer until the 11th. I do still have some boneless chicken in the freezer, but it is cut into larger chunks than they have so far been willing to eat. If they make too much of a fuss then I'll just cut up the chicken legs that I have frozen and feed them to the ferrets instead of the BF (serves him right for spending too much while I was gone). Will write more tomorrow evening after the fuzzbutts have had something to eat.

[buzzonesbirdie]

LOL leave it to the men in our lives to not think

Ok, glad that you had a nice visit with your mom. They should be ok not having had thier food since tuesday. Let me know how the chicken and pork goes.

Glad to have you back

[crystalineshadow]

Well, the chicken had gone bad while I was gone (not too unexpected, but at least there wasn't much of it) so I have been going with straight pork.

Bakemano doesn't seem to care what is in his food dish, he just eats it up. I actually think that I could give him plain cut up meat and he'd be happy.

Spaz I think prefers the pork to chicken as I believe that she was hissing (while eating) at Nipper when she tried to join in with the feeding. There were a couple of smallish pieces of pork on the feeding shelf and I picked them up and held them out to Spaz, who licked them but would not eat them so I dredged them through the mush and held them out again and after licking them she wolfed them right down.

Nipper is at least eating the mush from around the pork... I've only seen her eat once and I didn't specifically see her eating any of the meat. Add to that the fact that someone is putting meat chunks on the feeding shelf and I think that she may be avoiding it. The pieces that are on the shelf now are fairly long, so I'm going to try cutting them a bit shorter (probably no longer than 2") and see if that fixes the problem.

I am now feeding them a mixture of 1/4 cup mush to 1 tablespoon meat. Only change is that I added an additional 1 teaspoon of ground eggshell to the mush hoping that it will firm up their poos a bit. The first bowl I fed them half that amount, but Bakemano and Spaz finished it off less than 5 mins after I put it in there. This is a change of 1 tablespoon per bowl less mush than before I went away for the week (although I believe the food they ate while I was gone had more mush in it) and so far no one seems to have noticed.

Nipper wondered off and came back later when Spaz was at the food dish but Spaz and Bakemano share just fine... I'm thinking that this may mean Nipper is the low man on the totem pole here. I haven't seen her and Bakemano try to share yet, but all of the dominance struggles were definatly between him and Spaz.

Crazy BF didn't clean out the ferret cage while I was gone and only let the poor things out a couple of times so I had a huge mess to clean up when I got back. I re-arranged the levels a bit and don't have enough cloth covers to put on all the shelves, so of course this all adds up to my ferrets not being litter box trained anymore... *sigh* it was nice when replacing the newspaper in the box a couple of times a day was the extent of my cage cleaning.

[crystalineshadow]

Alrighty then, I decided to try an entirely new tactic with the ferrets today. I was exhausted last night, and so didn't give them their bedtime feeding (and honestly, I don't remember giving them lunch either so it's a toss up as to whether they ate after breakfast) so I decided (based on the observations I made yesterday) to try out something new. I grabbed some of the sliced up pork, dredged it through the mush, dumped it in the bowl and put it in the cage. Spaz came up and ate the whole thing. So I added a little water to the small amount of mush remaining in the container, put the last of the sliced up pork in the food dish, and dumped the watery mush on top of it. The mush had about the consistency of soup, and Spaz drank it up. A few minutes later, Bakemano came up and ate the meat that she had left at the bottom of the bowl and turned it over so that I'd know it was empty. Nipper slept through all of this, so I went to make more mush and cut up more meat. I decreased the water in the mush mixture to 1/2 a cup (and that's where it's gonna stay, cause my mixer couldn't handle it if I took out any more water). Next time I'm gonna mix up everything but the ground turkey and then drop that in a little at a time cause the crushed up kibble pieces are still visible in the mixture I have now. So I sliced up some pork and weighed it until I had 2 oz, then I dredged that through the mush and plopped it in the food bowl. I then took a little more mush and smeared it on the top of the meat to help get Nipper's attention. Nipper decided to wake up and have some lunch about the time I was finishing up, so she came down to the feeding shelf and licked all of the mush off the top of the bowl. Afterwards she actually ate some of the meat chunks too! It was great to see her chewing and actually severing some of the meat into smaller pieces. Today's meat was a mix of kibble sized chunks and short and long strips. I'm gonna try keeping the strips but increasing the size of the chunks and see if both get eaten. Unfortunatly, I only have about 5oz of pork left but I do have 8oz of chicken chunks so once those thaw I'll be doing a mixture of the two meats.

I seem to remember that a ferret generally eats between 2 and 4 ounces of meat twice a day, so I plan to stick with putting 2oz in each bowl and tomorrow I'll try and keep track of how many bowls they go through. Math would have me think the answer is between 6 and 12, but I really doubt they are eating that much. Plus they have the added mush, so each bowl actually contains more than 2oz of food.

If they like the chicken and pork combo, I think I'll try adding the beef and see if they like that (I would hate to try taking them directly to plain beef and find out that they don't like it.) I also think I'll thaw out a chicken leg and score it down to the bone and roll it in the 'liquid breading' after I let them taste the beef, just to see if they're willing to try it yet. I'm betting Bakemano will, but it will be interesting to see what happens.

I really can't wait until these little buggers are eating bone... it's a pain cleaning up runny poo all the time.

[buzzonesbirdie]

You know you make me feel kinda usless. Your plans are always really well thought out and take into account where each one of your ferrets is in thier switch. Which is the way that it is supposed to be.

A warning about beef, I have noticed that some ferrets really like it while others turn their noses up at it. So if one of your three eats it and the other two dont(or vica versa), dont worry about it so much and feed it not as often as a treat to the ones who eat it.

Let me know how giving them the bone works out.

YOu are really doing a great job

[crystalineshadow]

Thanks for the compliment. I am very much a planner, lol, drives the other people in my life nuts.

I had heard that some ferrets were not so fond of beef, so what I did was first I fed them a bowl of mixed pork and beef (since pork seems to be their favorite), and then a bowl of plain beef. Both bowls got eaten, so I guess that nobody actively hates beef.

As to how much meat they are eating... well yesterday when I got up there was about 1/3 of a bowl of food left, which Bakemano finished off for breakfast. I gave them a full bowl and they were eating the last of it as I went to bed. The first bowl was the pork/beef and the second was pure beef, so I am going to feed them pork/chicken today and see if that gets eaten any faster. If not it looks like they are going through 1.5 to 2 bowls of food each day. Each bowl is approximately 2oz (it's not a digital scale and the smallest marking is 1oz, so it could be off a bit in either direction) of meat and then the mush, so I'm thinking that if it were all meat they would be eating around 6oz per day. That seems a little low to me, however if most measurements are taken bone in I could see how that would push it up by another ounce or two.

I pulled out the tiniest chicken leg I had (3oz) and the smallest piece of pork neck (2oz) to thaw this morning so they should be ready to try tomorrow.

On the plus side, I put a lot of different shapes and sizes of meat in the last bowl or two (spaghetti, ribbons, flat slices, kibble sized chunks, and a couple of cubes a little over 1/2 an inch) and they all got eaten. On the down side I was right about Bakemano: he will eat anything. Including dropped pills (it was just flaxseed oil, or I would have gotten it picked up sooner but I did get it away from him before he ate the outer shell) and corn chips.

I'm still having fun potty training the little guys. I restricted them to one level of their cage last night for bed and tomorrow morning I will add a level back in (after I have made a nice soft cover for it). They have never missed the box on the lowest level, so I'm hoping that those habits stick once they get more places to run and explore. They are actually doing pretty good outside of the cage. Someone decided that a foot away from the newspaper was close enough in the corner in front of my dishwasher, and I am still trying to convince Nipper that I WILL NOT put a potty paper in front of my refrigerator. I moved the rat cages over a bit and put a paper next to the front door and when Nipper tried to go right in front of the door I picked her up and put her on it and surprise surprise she actually used it! Usually if I pick her up and put her on the paper she will look at me like I am crazy and wonder off to do something else waiting several minutes (until she thinks I'm done watching her) to try pottying somewhere else that she isn't supposed to go.

[crystalineshadow]

They had an interesting time with the chicken leg yesterday. I sliced around it kinda diagonally so that if the meat had slid off the bone it would have made an oval ring. I was planning to slice the other way as well to make a criss-cross shape and just have little strings of meat sticking up from the bone but the meat was already trying to fall off of the bone as it was.

Spaz got to it first and licked most of the mush off the outside then found a string of meat and started chewing on it. Bakemano then woke up and decided that there weren't any other strings of meat to be found so he stole the one Spaz had. She, of course, couldn't find another place to get started so she gave up for a while.

I believe that all three of them had a go at the meat while I was still awake, but there was still much meat left when I went to bed last night. So I left it in there and this morning I woke up to this:


I was quite surprised to see the tooth hole in the middle of the bone and as you can see someone made a pretty good dent in the end there.

I am giving them the pork neck today. Nipper is even now licking the mush off the outside and Spaz is telling me that she'd rather come out and play than have lunch.

I am thinking that Spaz might be sensitive to chicken. When she was eating kibble she had a habit of chewing on her food dish while she ate and since putting her on raw she had stopped that, but yesterday I noticed her doing it again while she was eating the chicken leg. Originally I had been thinking about giving them mostly chicken with one day each for two other meats and organs (and even feeding the wing tips on organ day in the hopes that the extra bone would help to firm up their poo). In light of this, however, I adjusted my thinking to twice a week (once backs / necks and once wings). Do you think that this would be a problem for her?

Since they like pork so much, I'm thinking of putting pork neck twice a week (not sure if they will eat the bones in that or not, but they tend to have a large meat to bone ratio) and if they like duck feeding duck twice a week. Since they are going through such a small amount of food each day and since they do most of their eating at night, I was thinking of feeding them when I put them in their cage for the night (also to decrease stashing and random meat moving... Bakemano already decided the other day that he should take a strip of meat out and eat it on the couch). I was thinking that instead of having an organ day (since I (being asleep) will not be able to see who is eating it) I might make an organ soup and give them some of it each day when I let them out to play. I was thinking that this would be a good way to give them their heart meat too and get the taurine in. I have no idea how many chicken hearts (only kind of heart meat I can find) to give the three of them for a week. I know it should be 3oz of liver and I am thinking of putting in 9oz of other meats and making basically a double batch of the mush they are eating now (minus the kibble of course).

So here's the prospective weekly rundown:
Day 1: Chicken wings (bone in)
Day 2: Pork neck (possible bone)
Day 3: Duck wings or back (bone in)
Day 4: Beef (boneless)
Day 5: Chicken back and neck (bone in)
Day 6: Pork neck (possible bone in)
Day 7: Duck thighs or legs (possible bone in)

Each week they would have bone in 3 days a week, bone that they may or may not eat 3 days a week, and boneless 1 day. If I start running low on either beef scraps or duck I'm thinking of trying a cornish game hen. I may also throw some goose in there if I buy one (they cost about twice as much as the other non-beef meats) or if I get myself some lamb I'll let them try the scraps from that, but those are more occasional treats than diet staples. And of course the aforementioned organ soup (still wondering if it would be better to do a double batch or water down a single).

[crystalineshadow]

Well, they have licked the pork neck clean (both sides) and left it lying on the bottom of their cage. I put it back in the food dish. I'm not going to give them any other food today and if they have eaten it by the time I get up tomorrow morning then I will assume that this is their way of telling me that they no longer need to have their meat coated in mush (they had the chicken leg licked clean for several hours before they ate it too). If they do eat the pork neck, I'll make up some offal soup and give them a little tomorrow morning and then give them a chicken back tomorrow night. Hopefully they'll be hungry enough to eat the bones. If not it's no biggie and I'll just feed them something else. I figure that by giving them a little organ soup each day they won't starve if I accidentally give them something they can't eat but they'll still be hungry enough to try whatever food I give them.

Hopefully they will be nice enough to let me know when I can stop shredding the meat on the bone and just toss it to them, seeing as they seem to be letting me know when it's time for each other step.

I don't think they're ready for wings just yet, but the meat on the back is exposed and if I get one that has the ribs attached to it still (I'm going to be cutting up chickens into parts tomorrow) there will be lots of places for them to start chomping.

I can't believe how quickly these guys are moving all of a sudden... just a couple of weeks ago they were turning up their noses at the food if it didn't have enough kibble mush mixed in and now they don't even seem to need it.

[buzzonesbirdie]

Wow look at me Im sick a few days and your guys move on to bone I love the picture of the bone with the lone tooth mark in it

Ok lets see if I can address everything without missing something.

Your proposed diet looks really good. As for your organ soup dont see why it wouldnt work ummm hearts, I give a heart for each ferret and they usually eat it no problem. So I would figure maybe 4 hearts for your guys since you are making asoup out of it (not sure what that is in oz).

OK next Chicken sensative ferret--Im not really sure how to tell if she is i will ask Heather if she knows. And we will get back to you on that whole subject.

Shredding the meat on the bone--I would start to shred it less and less as long as they do not seem to have a problem with it work on that over the next week or so.

Just an observation, my guys do not like sharing "their" piece of meat so lets say I am feeding chicken legs i will using my cleaver cut each chiken leg depending on its size into 2-3 huge pieces and give that to them. Now my guys will share like a whole rabbit just becuase I refuse to butcher it but also becuase it is so large that they can each stake out a "corner" of it. Also I know that ferrets mostly like to get away from the others and eat in solitude.

Oh also if they are eating the chicken legs then they should have no problem with the wings, just maybe put a cut in it. Wings I also cut apart but I cut them into 3 pieces just like you are making hot wings, the tip, the middle part and the end part.

But again you and your guys are doing great.

[crystalineshadow]

Hmm, apparently the little monsters just thought they were ready for soup free meat with bone. I left them with a chunk of pork with a tiny bone for 24 hours and nobody touched it from what I can tell, but it wasn't cut up as well as it could have been. I gave them some organ soup in the morning and in the evening gave them the ribs and breastbone from a chicken. Bakemano picked a piece up and shook it, with a little chomping, but nobody else seemed to notice it was there (for 24 hrs). So I took some (2oz worth) largish chunks of chicken (at least the size of my thumbnail, but many were thin) and put them in the bowl on top of the organ soup and this morning only a few pieces of the chicken seem to be left.

At least they seem to like their new soup. I made it first with 2oz of beef liver, 3oz ground turkey, a boiled egg, and the remainder (about 4oz) of their kibble infused soup (with eggshell, olive oil, and water added of course). Fed them that one day. Then blended all of the giblets from the duck with some more shell, oil, and water and poured that on top of the remaining 6 bowls and mixed it in. After this batch is over I'm gonna get some chicken hearts and gizzards and make it with 3oz beef liver and 3oz chicken parts.

I can't wait until I get paid on the 11th. I'm gonna check out some new stores and price some different meats. Especially good since ducks have larger bones than I was expecting and their wing bones are actually the thickest bones in their body. Hopefully I'll be able to find a better deal on cornish game hen than I have so far.

I'm going to put the last of my thawed pork on top of their soup tonight and see if they will eat it without it being cut up further. If they do then I'm gonna try them on a bowl of chicken chunks without soup underneath and see how that goes. If they eat that then I'll keep doing it until I run out of thawed chicken then I'll try some chicken wings (long middle bone piece) hopefully cut in half or so.

One piece of good news... by this time next week they should be completely kibble free!

[crystalineshadow]

I gave them the pork chunks on top of their soup last night and this morning it was all gone. I did notice before I went to bed that several of the larger pieces had been shoved to the side and the soup eaten out from under them but I don't blame the guys for that... soup is much easier to chew than a chunk of pork the size of my thumb. That was the last of the pork and this morning Bakemano decided to inform me that the food bowl was empty, so I tossed in 2oz of chicken (nothing else) and I'll see how quickly they finish that off. I have another 2oz of chicken for tonight and after that they'd better learn to eat the chicken wings 'cause I'm almost out of boneless meat. The duck thighs just have the long bone running down the middle and I have a bit of beef I trimmed off a roast, but that's it. Fortunately they liked the chicken leg and I have several of those in my freezer so nobody's gonna go hungry.

It looks like perhaps they have decided to eat twice a day, which makes me happy. The soup I'm giving them weighs about 3.5 ounces (and we know it's not pure meat) and an additional 2oz of meat per day meant they were eating less than 2oz of food per day per ferret. I'm guessing they may have been trying to hold out for the good stuff and finally realized that it's not coming.

[buzzonesbirdie]

You are making such a good progess

Im glad that they ate the pork of the top.

I do not really have much to add. Do not be afraid to everyonce in a while give them bones that are too big. They will still chew on the ends and get some of the marrow and stuff out so as long as they are getting others bones that they can eat its not a big deal.

Lol yeah they probaly were wondering when their old food was comming back and now know its not. When mine figured that out a few of them actually pouted for a day they wouldnt come out of the cage and if they did they stayed away from me but everytime one of the kids or my hubby went into the kitchen they would go running and wait for their Kibble.

Now they run when they hear the the cleaver on the cutting board and get mad if im cooking and its not thier food. LOL

[crystalineshadow]

Yeah, pretty soon now mine are going to come running when they hear the cat. I don't actually own a cat, I just have an 'occasional cat'. She either got left behind when her owners left the apartment complex or her owners just don't care to bring her in at night. I went to take out the trash night before last and on the way home she meowed at me, so of course I petted her. And she followed me home. She stayed for about half an hour before deciding to go outside again. Last night she came over to visit twice. The first time my BF had to show her how to get from the front door to my apartment and the second time she stood right outside my door and meowed to be let in. Mostly she seems starved for attention but I do give her food and water as well. She is scared of the ferrets. I think that she could be comfortable around them if we were to keep her, however that won't be happening unless she is still roaming when we leave here in December (although she may come in a lot more once it starts snowing if she hasn't found a new family by then).

The ferrets ate the plain chicken chunks that I gave them for lunch yesterday and all but one large chunk from the chicken and soup that was last nights dinner. They also keep trying to steal the cat's food and Bakemano actually managed to make off with a bite of my pizza (he was trying to take the entire piece and stash it, but I grabbed it before he could drag it off the couch). I also caught him chewing on one of my high heeled shoes that I forgot was in the living room. Hopefully once I give him more bones he might stop trying to eat everything else in sight.

I don't think that it will make a difference to our switch, however I have finally given in and admitted that Nipper is adrenal. She doesn't have any hair loss or aggression, just the swollen vulva, so I was hoping that there might be some other explanation but the nice folks on the forum said that was pretty much the only thing it could be. Now I have to start saving up and looking around and seeing how much my options will cost to make her all better.

I'm going to be giving them the middle section of the chicken wing today, so tomorrow I'll let you know how it went.