Nipper, Spaz, and Bakemano's Switch

[buzzonesbirdie]

LOL all i cant picture is this small ferret running off with a huge piece of pizza

Awww poor kitty well at least she found you guys. Let me suggest that you get a flee colar for her, my one dog got flees last year and with in 2 days everything with fur in my home had them. We caught it early but it still took about a week to get rid of not to mention all the money spend on it.

Sorry to hear about Nipper. we had an adrenal ferret that we lost a few months ago. I hope that it all works out for you.

I am really happy to hear that they are eating plain chicken. Keep up the good work and let me know how the wing section goes.

[crystalineshadow]

Well, Bakemano is my two and a half pounder, so it didn't look nearly as funny as it would have if Spaz had tried it, seeing as her summer weight is a now a nice trim (tiny) pound and a half.

The kitty didn't come back last night, so hopefully her family found her and let her back inside. As for the fleas, she didn't have them (from what I could see), but my ferrets still do... all three of them came with them and they are quite difficult to get rid of. Although, it has been ages since I've seen a live flee on Nipper. If the girls would ever sit still long enough for a through combing it would make this a much faster process.

I've had people tell me that adrenal is a long process and that I'll have time to raise the money to take care of her, but I'm worried about it anyway. She doesn't seem to be in any pain, but I'd hate it if she died because I couldn't afford to get her to the vet quickly enough. If she starts loosing her hair I might be able to borrow the money from my parents, but as it is she looks completely healthy (aside from her swollen vulva) and that makes it much more difficult to convince people that she's sick.

Yesterday for lunch I gave them two wings, one cut in half and the other in thirds. By bed time one of the smaller pieces was nothing but bone. So for bed I put their soup in the bottom of the bowl and put the chicken on top and added a wing which had been cut in fourths. This morning there are a couple of pieces with no meat on them and a couple that have defiantly been chewed on. I'm going to clear out the old stuff and give them one wing cut into quarters in just a moment here. If they finish it before bed time then I'll give them more meat, if not I'll clear that out and put in two more wing sections with their soup. That way tomorrow morning the leftovers will all be fresh and can be left in there until evening. I've seen all three of them chewing on the pieces and yesterday Nipper and Bakemano were actually sharing the food dish so hopefully everybody's getting enough to eat and nobody's relying solely on the organ soup for nourishment.

[buzzonesbirdie]

Yeah I know fleas are a pain in the a**.

Hopefully Kitty did find her home and nothing bad happened to her.

If you cannot get the surgery right away, you can get a shot of lupron for your ferret. My Freedom got lupron shots and she was fine for a while and did not pass till well after she had had her surgery. The shots cost us about $150 and she needed a shot every 2 months. they could be more or less expensive where you are you would have to talk to your vet about it.

Sounds like they are doing really well with their chicken. They are eating their bones from the wings right??

[crystalineshadow]

The other day I did not give the chicken in the morning as Bakemano went and spread the pieces that were in there around and chewed on them a little bit. At bedtime I gave them their organ soup and two chicken wing sections (middle long bone piece) each cut into four pieces. Of the eight chunks of bones I found one when I went to clean out the scraps and I believe that I missed one that they shoved under the water bottle. So it looks like they are eating most of the bones. The piece that they left behind and I cleaned up was from the end, where the two long bones join together so perhaps the knot at the end was a bit more than they wanted to tackle.

When I went to give them their wing chunks and soup last night, Spaz and Bakemano went right down and started eating (Nipper was asleep) so I may consider giving them an additional wing sometime during the day. Currently they have about one and a half chunks sitting in their food dish and I don't see any stashed around the cage so perhaps I'm actually giving them the right amount. I re-read and found that ferrets generally eat 2-3oz per day (not twice a day as I had thought) and the two wing pieces weigh in at 2oz plus they get their daily mush.

I will be making a new batch of mush today and it will be a bit smaller than the previous batch (since I don't have any old mush to mix into it and I won't be adding any duck offal) so I may need to up the raw to 3oz once I start giving the new mush. Alrighty then, sounds like tonight I'll be trying the new mush (now completely kibble free) and three wings.

It's kind of interesting when I come up with the plan as I'm typing.

Either tomorrow or the next day I'm going to put in some mostly boneless duck as their meat (depends on when the duck finishes thawing out and gets chopped up) and see if they like that. I plan to cut some of the meat into chunks and leave some on the bone and see how they deal with each type.

The store was sold out of chicken hearts so no hearts in the soup this week. Hopefully the other store will have some when I go there (either Sunday or Thursday).

Trouble (that's what I'm calling the cat) is still around the apartment complex. She followed me home when I took the trash out last night (but she only stayed for a few minutes) and I saw her in the parking lot after I went to inform the maintenance people that my closet doorway was dripping water. I wish I were moving sooner cause I'd love to keep her but I am so not paying a $200 fee and then $50 a month (none of it refundable) just so I can keep the cat indoors (hence the name Trouble, cause I'd be in trouble if she decided that she wanted to stay in my apartment for good).

[crystalineshadow]

Well, my troupe are now officially kibble free! Night before last I cut some of the chicken wings into the four pieces that they have been getting and some into three and all of them got eaten, so hopefully I can start cutting them all into larger pieces. Last night I gave them a duck thigh. My duck thighs don't have the flat bone in them, only the long bone. I cut that bone in half and all that I see is about one inch of it remaining. They ate both the meat that was still on the bone and the meat that I had cut off of it.

They seem to be finishing off the meat in their bowl well before bedtime each day so I should probably try giving them a little more. At this point I am working on figuring out how many ounces of meat and bone to give them and weaning them onto larger pieces of meat.

I'll give them a pork neck tonight and see if they eat the bone from that or just the meat.

Is there such a thing as giving them too much bone or do I only have to worry about giving them too little? Could it cause a problem for them if I gave them a bone that was too large (such as one from a turkey) or would they know that it was too dense and not try eat it? I don't plan on giving them bones from beef or pork (other than the pork neck bones) or the leg bones from the turkey, however I don't know how thick some of the other turkey bones are or whether some of the duck bones will be too dense for them (the duck wing bones are actually quite similar to chicken leg bones, so I'm guessing they'll be alright).

I still haven't managed to pick up any chicken hearts, but I'm headed out to a different grocery store on Thursday and hopefully they will have some there. I stopped briefly by a grocery store yesterday that I almost never go to and discovered that they sell rabbit. It's $8 a pound so the ferrets probably won't be getting any of it but if I happen to buy some down the road I'll give them a piece just to see if they like it. If they do I can look into seeing how much it would cost to get them some from online suppliers.

My BF is no longer completely against feeding whole prey. He still doesn't like the idea of live feeding and he refuses to be in the room when they are killed, but at least he is considering the possibility. It will be quite some time before we do any whole prey (if at all) as I am currently saving up for Nipper's surgery. The vet I've decided to go with will be charging either 970 or 1500 for the surgery (depending on which adrenal it is) and 240 for the preliminary work. Seems like a pretty good deal to me as the 240 covers a wellness exam, parasite exam, rabies shot, distemper shot, complete blood cell count, organ bio-chemical profile (not really sure what that is), adrenal panel, x-rays, an abdominal ultrasound, and any sedation that is needed to run the above tests. I was told that after the diagnostic work was done the Dr. could tell me how far advanced her disease is and what my options are. Hopefully she's not too bad yet, cause it's gonna take me quite some time to come up with that much money.

[buzzonesbirdie]

Awww poor trouble.

Thats great that they are kibble free. I wish it had been as easy for me todo it.

Dont worry about getting to much bone, my guys and gals get bone everyday. Also do not worry about giving them a bone thats to big they will eat what they can and leave it at that. When i give ox tail I always find that bone laying around in the cage. Just make sure that you dont count the bone that they dont eat towards what they need.

Im glad that your bf has kinda changed his mind about the whole prey. we feed live everyonce in a while and I am never ever ever in the room it always falls on my hubby to do it. I do feed the whole prey that we get from rodent pro and comes to us frozen.

[crystalineshadow]

Unfortunately the pork neck that I had thawed out yesterday ended up being mostly bone so I chopped the last chicken wing in half and threw that in there as well. The mush and the chicken are both gone and Bakemano has been chewing on the pork neck off and on today. I have a couple of chickens to part out today, so I'll give them the wing tips as a supplement to help hold them over until dinner.

I'm thinking about going with rodentpro for my frozen prey as well. Looking at their prices I don't think that I could raise (and euthanize) rats and mice as cheaply as they are selling them. Unfortunately with just a quick scan their rodent prices look to be about $5 per pound and that's before shipping. Their rabbits look like a good deal though even though they are all too large for a single meal for my three and so I'd have to chop them up a bit. I'll have to see how much their shipping is once I move and I may put in an order for a bunch of rabbits and a few mice and rats and feed whole prey once a week. Of course I'd have to get a rabbit from the grocery and a few frozen rodents from the pet store (or a local breeder if I can find one) to make sure that they like them first. Either way, I've got six months before I have to think about whole prey as my freezer is almost not big enough to hold the food that I'm trying to put in it now.

I completely cleaned out the ferret cage last night, took out the levels and their corner sleeper (everybody's favorite sleeping place) and upgraded their litterbox to one that's easier for me to clean. So what do they do, they kick the newspaper across the cage and sleep in the litterbox. *sigh* I guess I'll have to use something stronger than clothespins to hold the newspaper in place with this box. Hopefully they will re-learn the whole litterbox idea soon... this cage is far too difficult to clean. I'm also going to have to watch them and see if perhaps there is a territorial issue at work as the girls never pooed on fabric when it was just the two of them but now they do. At least everyone finally seems to understand that they should go at least near the newspaper when they are out of the cage. Thankfully the only room in my apartment that has carpet is the bedroom and they are not allowed in there. If it turns out that they need a second litterbox in their cage I'm probably going to just line the entire bottom of the cage in newspaper and see if that works cause a litterbox takes up almost a third of the cage floor and the only other full level is made of cloth. (I have one cage floor, one shelf 1/3 wide, two shelves 2/3 wide and a full floor made from cloth stretched tight across the cage.)

[Heather]

Just popped in, noticed the litterbox sleepy thing and thought I would offer a bit....try putting some poopies in the litter box, they may be less inclined to sleep in it...this works sometimes They can be such little poops about clean litter boxes.
I will also add that your guys certainly seem to be coming along nicely. You're doing an awesome job. Great work
Rodentpro is expensive (at least the shipping part)but I've heard really good things about their product and their variety is excellent. I wish we could get their product up here . I don't think you can raise the variety as cheaply as they're selling it at though.
I will pop out again now
ciao

[crystalineshadow]

Not too much new going on here. They are eating their food at night and I give them a little extra during the day if they have finished it all off and look hungry. I'm having a bit of a problem adding hearts to their diet - they are only sold in heart / gizzard combo packs and the last one I bought only had two hearts in it.

I fixed the problem I was having with them not using the litterbox in the cage. First I tried putting some poo in the box but I line my box with newspaper and so two of them ended up snuggled together under the paper. That's what helped me to realize that what they really wanted was something to snuggle under. I tossed one blanket on the other side and moved them over there and they were happy. I had taken the blankets and all out because they were previously pooing all over everything but thankfully that has stopped now. Tonight I'm going to put a couple of levels back in and see how they do with that.

When I give them their chicken wings they are now cut in half, last time I gave them four wings and they ate the bones from three of them. They didn't eat as much of the duck back as I would have liked, but perhaps they were just too busy chewing off the rib bones to flip it over and notice the skin and meat on the back side. I'll try putting it into their cage skin side up next time and see if that makes a difference. I tried giving them an uncut section of pork neck last night and while they did chew on it, they have not yet eaten enough of the meat for me to be happy with them. I'll give them some gizzards tonight to give them a bit of a break from having to fight with their food (and because I ran out of the chicken wings). As I type this, Spaz is tearing chunks off of the pork and eating them, so I expect the bone to be much closer to clean when I take it out of there tonight. Hopefully they will eat most of it and I won't feel compelled to try slicing some of the meat into ribbons before I give it to them.

I'm really surprised at how quickly this change has gone. There were a few sticky spots but overall it went much more smoothly than I had expected. Given how the girls balked whenever I tried to change anything, I think that I have Bakemano and his 'I'll eat anything' attitude to thank for the quick change over.

[Heather]

I find that having an enthusiastic eater is indeed a benefit in encouraging others to trying to eat different foods.
I'm glad that you found a solution to your litter box problem . Sounds to me that you're almost ready for graduation How do you feel about that?....Are all your guys eating well and eating bone? Can you put together a menu for a weeks feeding for Giuli to look at and approve?
I will check in with you tomorrow and see how you are with this
ciao

[crystalineshadow]

I'm fine with graduating, seems like my guys are taking to the food change pretty well. As for the weekly food schedule, it goes something like this:

Daily: one bowl of mush (1/7 of the total mixture shown below)
Day 1: Chicken - Wings (all bones eaten)
Day 2 : Duck - Back or Neck (some bones eaten)
Day 3: Pork Neck (bone mostly untouched)
Day 4: Chicken - Back or Neck (some bones eaten)
Day 5: Duck - Wings
Day 6: Pork Neck (bone mostly untouched)
Day 7: Other - usually chicken gizzards or boneless beef

Mush mixture: 1 boiled egg, 3oz beef liver, 1oz chicken hearts, 3oz ground turkey, 2tsp ground eggshells, 2tsp olive oil, 1cup water

I am currently feeding them once a day in the evening but on days that they still seem hungry I will give them a couple of ounces of chicken gizzards mid-morning. I am considering going to an eight day schedule and adding turkey (wings, neck, and back) in after the pork (so the days would go chicken, duck, pork, turkey) then if I had any extra meat (such as beef) I would just toss it in occasionally between sets.

With these meats being so bony, I'm a little worried that they aren't getting enough meat as it's pretty hard to judge how much edible matter is on any given bone. The wings have a good ratio but the backs and necks seem a little light on the meat. I don't want to feed boneless meat along with the backs as I'm afraid that they wouldn't expend the energy to chew on the bones. I've considered feeding them twice a day but with their schedule I don't think that would work too well. Right now they are let out out around 7pm, put to bed between 5 and 7am (we work nights), and are fed when they are put in their cage for the night. Usually at least one of them eats more of the food between 4 and 7pm, but once they are let out they almost never go back into their cage before bedtime. I have been leaving their meat in the cage until just before I put them to bed, however I've been considering removing it when I let them out for the day to reduce the spoiled meat smell in their cage (usually only a problem when they decide to hide bones under the litter box).

On the up side (for the ferrets) my apartment is under new management and they decided that ferrets count as pets (cats and dogs count, but rats don't). So I have to pay a $100 deposit and an additional $20 a month in pet rent. This means that the ferrets can have their toys out in plain sight and I don't have to hide their litter boxes and put them in their cage whenever maintenance comes over (before I was convincing them that ferrets were cage pets, much like my 9 rats). Luckily for me, the new management charges less than the old... before it would have been a $200 deposit and $50 a month. The down side is that it will take that much longer until I can get Nipper in to be seen for her adrenal... this is one of those days where I wish I made more money... *sigh*

[buzzonesbirdie]

Everything sounds and looks really good.

Thats great about not having to hide the babies and their stuff anymore.

I think we all can feel you on the money issue.

Your menu looks really good. I think you are ready to graduate too

[crystalineshadow]

Hmm, here's a question for ya... Technically my ferrets are getting three kinds of meat in their soups (beef liver, chicken hearts, and ground turkey) so what happens if for some reason I can't get them much variety otherwise for awhile? For instance, what if my freezer went out and I had to go out and buy all new food? As it stands now, I have plenty of chicken and duck, but I am beginning to run low on pork. I can only get to the store once a week if I'm lucky, so if I run out before I get to buy more there may be a week or so that I am out of pork. I stocked up on the poultry when it went on sale and so now my freezer is full and I've got to use some of it up before I'll have room to buy anything else. Can you foresee any problems with dropping down to two meats and the soup for a week or so and if it is causing problems is there any way that I would know? Hopefully I'll be able to pick up some more before I run out this time, but I know that I might slip up and not do so at some point in the future and I'd like to have all of my bases covered before that happens.

[Heather]

3 protein sources is used as a guideline. You will not cause any serious damage if for a week or two you find that you only have 2 protein sources. I personally would try and get 3 or 4 protein types that your furkids will eat. If you run out, miscalculate or just can't get one then you're back down to 3 but like I said you will not cause serious damage if you only have two protein sources for a week or so. These changes from not eating 3 proteins will not be apparant immediately. You may notice more shedding, coarser coats, brittle nails....they will be little things, subtle things. The thing is these shortages may show up much later, after all it's trace minerals that we're playing with here.
No, you will not cause huge damage by a week or so of not feeding 3 proteins
Good luck
ciao

[crystalineshadow]

Thank you so much for your information. The best part was knowing the immediate changes that a bad diet can cause. I do still worry that they are not eating enough on bone days - If I give them 8oz of boneless they eat at least 7oz of it, but if I give them an 8oz duck back there is still some meat left and the majority of the bones 24 hours later. I just picked up some boneless pork so at least a couple of days a week they'll be able to eat as much as they want without any problems. Hopefully once I clear out some freezer space I'll be able to add turkey to their diet which will give me four meats to feed on a regular basis with beef thrown in once a month or so.