Veggies in commercial diet???

[mustelidmusk]

This is just some food for thought since I've received numerous questions about the plant matter in Nature's Vaiety Raw Frozen diets. These are my opinions based on what I've read, what I've learned from an Integrative Med. vet, and and observations I've made while feeding commercial raw diets to my 4 ferrets over the past 3 years.

Many ferret owners fret about small amounts of vegetables that may be resent in small amount n commercial frozen diets.

We all know that ferrets have very short digestive systems, no cecum for digesting fiber, etc. As such, the final message regarding plant substances is plant matter provides no value for ferrets, and any plant matter in the ferret's food is bad becaueit cannot be digested.

Here's some food fr thought...
If plant sources provide little/or no nutritional value and too much fiber for ferrets....
1. Why does Dr. Susan Brown DVM recomend Flax seed oi over salmon oil?
2. Why is pumpkin comonly used as "the great equalizer" to help with loose/hard stool probles?
3. Why do polecats eat small amounts of berries/friuits???
4. What percent of whole prey is non-digestible? Wouldn't a ful-grown mouse or sparrow have at least 5% non-digesable protien i tthe form of feathers, fur, sales, beaks, claws, etc.
5. Why are farmed mink commonly supplemeted with plant matter ? www.froytang.no/html/mink.htm

In short, I do believe that a whole pey diet that closely replicates the polecat wild diets is probably best for our ferrets. However, I also beleive that those of us who feed commercial raw dits need not be overly concerned with the 5% "non-digestible" plant matter in a high quality frozen diet such those offered by Nature's Variety. Is the undigestable plant matter bad for my ferret? If the % of vegetable matter is low (i.e., 5%), probably not!

[Forum Administrator]

Honestly, I dont know why people offer flax oil instead of salmon oil. Doesnt make sense to me. As for using pumpkin to firm stools, the sugar content bothers me, I use ground eggshell instead (the fiber works wonders).

I know the veggies in commerical raw is a common issue that is discussed, so thanks for bringing up this post!

As for polecats eating berries in the wild, they do, but berries are fruits not veggies. Also, I would think that polecats are less susceptable to insulinoma. Our domestic (farm rasied) ferrets seem really susceptable. If insulinoma IS a genetic factor (that is affected by diet) then I would think avoiding carbs and sugar would be smart (just like someone with a family history of diabetes would avoid sweets). I had contemplated adding some ground berry matter to my ferret's natura diet, but opted not to.

I agree that the 5% is really not that big of a deal, but I dont think people should be ADDING veggies to their commerical raw (beyond what is already present) or homemade raw. The only thing that really scares me about the commerical diet is those pumpkin seeds in the NV. WHY would they put that in there?!?!

On a side note I noticed something interesting. People who advocated a BARF diet often recommend adding in ground veggie matter because "it would be in the stomach contents of a predator's prey" This seems like a valid point, but I and many other whole prey feeders have noticed that our ferrets often leave the stomach and intestines of their prey, and if they do eat it, they only do when they are VERY hungry. Hmmmm...very interesting.

[tss]

Pumpkin seeds are a "super food" in human foods. So many pet food companies try to bribe people by saying "added veggies and fruit".

Another theory on carnivores eating veggies thing is that they will eat them to fill a hungry belly.

I've seen the same thing that Giuli has. Unless I would give them a small mouse they leave the animals stomach and most of the intestines. With a milk fed rabbit kit they eat the whole thing.

Also, I used NV's kibble for a short while before I switched to raw. After just a week Weezers fur was very scruffy, it was like that for about a month after I got him off of it.

[mustelidmusk]

Thanks for the input, Giuli,

Yep, the lerge bits of pumpkin seed in the FREEZE-DRIED NV is VERY, VERY DANGEROUS to ferrets as mentioned in with the list of commercial diets (Pumpkin seed has great fats in it, but the seed thing is not an obligate carnivore thing especially when BIG pieces are present in the food!)

The pumpkin seed in NV FROZEN diet is not even detectable. I see teeny bits of broccoli and carrot here and there, but not much.
I''ve found the frozen diet to be very consistent than the NV freeze-dried, but I always "mash up" the frozen food thoroughly just to make sure there's no big veggie pieces. I've been using these products for over 3 years without finding any issues.

Fruits and/or veggies are all relatively undigestible to ferrets - and the fruit tends to have more sugar. Fruit (berries) is available to polecats on a seasonal basis only. So, the polecats wouldn't be getting much

Regarding the flax seed oil, I heard the ratio of fats (I think it's the omega-3 to omega-6) in flax seed oil is supposed to be closer to what would be encountered in a natural diet. That being said, I do know that flax seed oil losses it's value really ,really fast. I fact, it's recommended that whole flax seed be stored in the freezer and ground up just before serving to get all the benfits from it.

I've used both flax seed oil and Salmon oil. It might be my imagination, but I swear that my brats do better with the salmon oil. (softer fur on salmon oil)

As far as using pumpkin for loose or hard stool goes - I've never tried it, it's probably not a huge issue if it's used on a very short-term basis ( acouple of days). But I certainly would not be comfortable using it over along period of time.

Indeed, adding veggies/fruit is nothing you want to do to your ferret's food. But the 5% veggies in the NV is relatively insignificant. SO, if people need the convenience of a pre-made diet, they shouldn't be "scared off" by the tiny bit of veggies. The NV Frozen may not be perfect, but it's light-years ahead of an all-kibble diet!!

-jennifer
PS - be sure to read the post in the Enrichment section about walking on logs...it's cool, and I added link to a great polecat video that's really fabulous. In fact there are several videos on polecats there. Fun stuf!

[josiesmom]

Mustelidmusk inquires:

Here's some food fr thought...
If plant sources provide little/or no nutritional value and too much fiber for ferrets....
1. Why does Dr. Susan Brown DVM recomend Flax seed oi over salmon oil?

I haven't found a reference by Dr Brown indicating Flax seed oil over salmon oil, could you point me in that direction? However I did find a page www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/ferret.htm#a where Shirley notes some people offer their ferrets flaxoil and vegetable oil compounds. I myself add Olive oil and canola oil to my own ferretone mixture. But I also mix in Cod Liver oil.

Some people that have been feeding naturally much longer than myself cautioned against offering too much cod liver oil because of its high vitamin A content and possible overdosing of this vitamin. I'll have to do more number crunching to figure out how much would be too much, but for now my mix is one third each of the three oils. When I use it up, I'd like to may a mix from Cod liver oil, salmon oil, and emu oil - if I can find the stuff locally.



2. Why is pumpkin comonly used as "the great equalizer" to help with loose/hard stool probles?

Primaraily BECAUSE it is INdigestible the pumpkin will literally push everything OUT of the ferret's GI tract. Taking with it good AND bad bacteria.

3. Why do polecats eat small amounts of berries/friuits???

again, can I ask you for your references? I can't locate any that speak of ferrets eating berries, but I did find one where a weasel was photographed eating berries. IF Polecats DO eat berries it is likely because like our domestic ferrets polecats have a sweet tooth. But they cannot survive on these. Just as we like sweets and candies, but could not survive by eating them.

4. What percent of whole prey is non-digestible?

The indigestible parts of mice (all prey) are hair, claws, teeth and larger pieces of bone, and/or scales ( if that applies). To know exactly what that percentage entails, one would have to weigh the amount of the prey ingested, then weigh the amount of scat expelled.

Wouldn't a full-grown mouse or sparrow have at least 5% non-digestible protein in the form of feathers, fur, sales, beaks, claws, etc.

From my own experiments of scat dissections the indigestible amounts expelled are far less than 5% of the original mouse. My particular ferrets consumed the whole mouse on those scat dissections, but I have seen instances where the entire mouse was NOT digested. The mouse's stomach and the intestinal tract left uneaten. Sometimes its tail, sometimes its feet. None of which constitutes 5% of the mouse's total body weight.

5. Why are farmed mink commonly supplemented with plant matter ? www.froytang.no/html/mink.htm

To cut costs of feeding entirely meat based protein. Mink aren't expected to live very long. Just reach their full size with a decent pelt and then they are dispatched and turned into coats.

Hope this puts things in perspective.

Cheers,
Kim

[mustelidmusk]

Hi Kim,

I'll add my thoughts on your comments below... As we both know all too well, there are definitely some "fuzzy" areas with regard to ferret diet

Dr. Susan Brown recommending flax seed oil over salmon oil: Source= NaturalFerret group. Somebody in that group (I seem to recall it was Danee D (or possibly Ann B)) attended one of the Symposiums where Dr. Brown was a speaker. This is where Dr. brown dicussed the flax seed oil. (I think it was one of the IFC symposiums)

Cod Liver oil - does have lots of vitamin A, so yes, you need to be very careful wth it, especially if you're also feeding liver.

Ferret eating berries -
Sources: Bob Church Diet 101 series.
I've seen this menioned elsewhere - berries are obviously a seasonal thing and do not represent any ignificant part of the diet.
As far a ferrets liking sweets goes - YES, they do LOVE sweets!!! The only question here is whether or not the fruit lasts long enough to ripen and become sweet - most berries get swiped by wildlife before it turns sweet. Although this can vary by location and animal tongues may perceive tastes differently than we do. I

Pumpkin=
can be used to to either firm up or loosen up stool. Yes, in large amounts, vegetable fiber wil push bacteria through the system, just an any non-digestible matter. In fact, some advocates of raw feeding feel that the non-digestables help to prevent over-proliferation of bad bacteria in the gut.

Digestability -
"The indigestible parts of mice (all prey) are hair, claws, teeth and larger pieces of bone, and/or scales ( if that applies). To know exactly what that percentage entails, one would have to weigh the amount of the prey ingested, then weigh the amount of scat expelled. "

I'm not sure his would not be accurate since water is extracted from food as well. The digestbles contain more water than the non-digestibles in the case of whole prey. As such, the non-digetibles make up a larger percent of the solids than they appear to in unconsumed prey.

"From my own experiments of scat dissections the indigestible amounts expelled are far less than 5% of the original mouse. My particular ferrets consumed the whole mouse on those scat dissections, but I have seen instances where the entire mouse was NOT digested. The mouse's stomach and the intestinal tract left uneaten. Sometimes its tail, sometimes its feet. None of which constitutes 5% of the mouse's total body weight."

Because of the water content in prey, it's difficult to make an accurate assessment here. (see comment directly above

Using kelp in Mink food....
"To cut costs of feeding entirely meat based protein. Mink aren't expected to live very long. Just reach their full size with a decent pelt and then they are dispatched and turned into coats."

I don't feel kelp is used as a filler. There are too many much, much cheaper fillers than kelp. Plus, did you read the results of the study referenced by the URL listed above? I've seen other independent studies on mink/kelp as well.

Vegetable matter is definitely an interesting subject in the ferret diet. It's nothng I'd be adding to my ferret's diet. But I don't feel a small amount of non-carb/extremely lo-carb is going to do any serious harm. (In fact, there are some other things about commercial diets that concern me a LOT more that the 5% vegetable in Nature's Variety!) While a commercial balance raw diet is not as optimal as whole prey, I still feel it fills an extremely appropriate and valuable niche in the world of ferret diets.

The primary reason for this initial post is that I've received numerous emails asking about the vegetable content in some of the commercial frozen diets since a lot of of cannot or will not feed whole prey and require the convenience of commercial diet. I'm hoping that this discussion helps people who fall into this category make decisions on feeding their ferrets
-jennifer

[josiesmom]

HI Jennifer,

I'll agree that a feeding program offering more meaty items is MUCH better than any kibble only program, and that whole prey isn't a diet every ferret owner can handle.

But it is important to note that when compromising on form factor, the ferret's resulting health is compromised also.

Canned meat may offer a middle ground, but it also offers its own problems. Like not offering optimal oral health. It all ends up smelling the same. You cannot identify the source of the meat (except for what the label claims). Most canned meat is ground into a mush. Canned meat is also usually cooked, destroying vitamins.

What bothers me is that putting plant products into a carnivore's diet and marketing it will lull the consumer into thinking it is completely safe and that they are offering their pet "optimal health" when in fact they are just offering the pet only slightly better health than a kibble only diet.

I guess my farming background allowed me at an early age to understand how animals benefit us and that every animal has a role. Some are workers, some are companions, some are food, some have multiple roles.

My farming background also allowed me to become accustomed to handling meat. I know that some people have an aversion to handling meat. But I prefer to handle an identifiable piece of meat rather than the mysterious stuff crammed into a can.

I can separate diets offered to livestock from animals intended for companions because feeding livestock has one purpose in mind - to grow an animal as quickly as possible to offer as much profit as possible.

This is specifically evident in say Pot Belly pig food. The exact same ingredients used to feed livestock hogs is in a bag of manufactured "pot belly pig food". Which is why I choose to feed my Pot belly pig NATURAL foods like whole vegetables, fruits, and yes, even meats. Pets raised on the mfr diet become obese, lethargic and just miniature versions of a market hog. Often dying from cancer or obesity related health problems.

The link you offered www.froytang.no/html/mink.htm mentions several things intended to make the feeder feel good about feeding and repeatedly lists the benefits to the livestock - glossier pelts, healthier skins, faster growth. It lists Mannitol, a sugar alcohol as one ingredient. This obviously is to add palatibility and to entice the mink to eat more of it.

Something that raises another red flag in my mind is their comment that it makes the mink more docile. Docile mink are I'm sure easier for the handlers to deal with. But its been my experience that when a diet causes an animal to become "docile" you have to wonder if that diet is offering correct nutrients? "Docile" behavior from animals with high aggression levels like mink only means to me that their diet is NOT offering them proper nutrition for the mink to be normal. Despite all their years raised in captivity mink are still wild animals.

A mink is often killed for its pelt before it sees its first birthday! Sc extrapolating a diet for mink to a diet being fit for pet ferrets is like comparing apples to oranges.

I'm pretty certain you wouldn't extrapolate the cage requirements suitable for a mink as being suitable for a pet ferret, right? "Pens for mothers and litters are about 30 to 36 inches long x 18 inches high x 18 to 24 inches wide. Individual pelter pens are about 24 to 30 inches long x 15 inches high x 14 to 18 inches wide."

Kelp does offer tons of micronutrients, and MAY be beneficial IF the animal ingesting it has a system designed to utilize the plant food. Personally I think that offering your ferret a wide variety of whole prey and raw meaty bones will provide the animal with proper nutrients so that offering a questionable nutrient source is NOT necessary.

Some may consider me "stuck in the mud", but the entire premise behind feeding ferrets a natural diet is to offer them species specific appropriate nutrient sources, not to feed them what makes us comfortable or feel good.

I commend those whose personal convictions make them a vegetarian or a vegan yet are committed to offering their ferret's optimal health by feeding the animals the meaty items and prey Mother Nature intended. Those folks are over coming tremendous personal hurdles.

Offering canned diets may be a stepping stone, but should NOT be where the trail ends!

Cheers,
Kim

[Forum Administrator]

I think mustelidmusk is talking about commercial RAW foods (ground raw foods that sometimes contain veggie matter)

[pear2apple]

The raw diet that mustelidmusk is talking about is Nature's Variety Raw Frozen diet. I also feed this to Apple, and I will be switching Kiwi to this same diet. Here is the link: www.naturesvariety.com/raw_products

ONLY the RAW FROZEN is ok for ferrets. The freeze-dried is what contains the large pieces of pumpkin seeds. That is not ok to feed. I feed the Lamb and Rabbit Raw Frozen diets. It is not in a can, it is in these plastic resealable bags that you store in the freezer. It is ground raw meat frozen into "medallions".

I feed Apple the lamb and rabbit mixed together and I always add water to it. This is not all that is in his diet, so where this isn't the greatest for teeth, I supplement with a chicken bone or N-Bone. I also use Salmon Oil, he seems to like it the best, though he will eat the regular Ferretone, I just rarely use it.

I'm almost positive this is what she was talking about!

[mustelidmusk]

To clarify, I'm referring to forzen raw diets, not canned.

The web site I referenced was convenient to demonstrate that kelp is used in mink feed and/or as a supplement to improve coat quality, and produce larger pelts. The intent was not to suggest that Vialgin is appropriate to feed to ferrets (yes, it does contain palatibility enhancers, etc. And no, I would NOT recommend feeding Vialgin to ferrets

So, the intnt of my original post was to hpefully get people thinking about what we do and do NOT know about ferret diet.
I do feel SOME (but not all) of the commercial frozen diets are appropriate options for ferrets if people cannot/will not fee whole prey.

To summarize, here are some things that I've found to be interesting, which suggest that perhaps we need to continue reading and learning about ferret diet even after we've "finalized" our feeding plans.

1. The recommendation of flax seed oil over salmon oil (specifically for ferrets), coupled with the findings that kelp improves mink coat and reproduction strongly suggests that ferrets can derive benefit from at least some plant matter, and tsome plants must be digestible to at least some degree.

Kelp? It's a good source of trace minerals, and many people feel trace minerals are missing from the food chain these days, and it appears that kelp can probably benefit soe ferrts ferrets since neither ferrets nor mink have a caecum.

2. The use of short-term use pumpkin to assist with short term digestive issues in ferrets is a commonly used, effective remedy. Again, the non-digestible plant fibre is not ALWAYS a bad thing.

3. Berries are indeed a tny part of the of the wild polecat diet - Perhaps there may be some value derived from the berries

4. Whole prey has non-digestible matter, so a SMALL amount of non-digestible matter in the ferret diet is actually "more natural" than providing a meat diet that is 100% free of non-digestibles.

There are still a lot of unknowns with ferret nutrition, so I feel we need to continue to learn as much as we can. If you will not not feeding whole prey, commercial frozen diets may offer a viable option as part of your feeding program.

jennifer

[josiesmom]

HI Jennifer,

I'll agree that until we have specifics on what exactly is proof of what nutrients a ferret needs, some items that are fed are done so because they have shown benefits when processed in other species digestive tracts.

But this is why I feel we have so many health problems with ferrets. It just is NOT correct to offer these things just because there is a benefit elsewhere in the animal (or human) kingdom.

I've been doing some number crunching from the "Nature's Variety” website, even using their feeding guide calculator and their numbers just do NOT add up! I've only looked at their Raw Frozen Chicken diet.They claim 95% is raw animal source, only 5 % plant sources. Analyzing their ingredient list reveals they use 10 items from animal sources, 17 items from plant sources and 2 from other sources (sweeteners - honey and inulin).

In the animal product list they have FOUR different kinds of eggs! Chicken, duck, pheasant and quail! This raises a red flag for me based on numerous cautions regarding ferrets eating too much egg.

The first ingredient on their list is chicken. According to labeling guidelines the first three ingredients are supposed to be the largest amount of ingredients. So this would mean the 95% raw animal products consist mainly of Chicken, ground raw chicken bone and then Turkey; even the next two ingredients are still animal products (Turkey liver and turkey heart). Sounds decent I suppose until you look at their protein and fat levels and again a significant caution by many experienced raw feeders of ferrets; to NOT offer organ meats every day.

The protein percentage is listed as a minimum of only 13%! Now some would argue that could mean a larger percentage of protein in the mix. However it is widely accepted that ferrets need a minimum of 30 to 35 % protein! And others (mainly natural feeders), argue ferrets do best on much higher percentages of protein!

The fat content is a mere 6%, again almost half of what is considered to be the minimum for ferrets. They list a 2% fiber which is unnecessary for ferrets, but at least it is a low percentage. There is a 2.05% carbohydrate minimum listed (which again could be taken that there is MORE than 2.05%).

Their website suggests feeding 1.5% to 2% of an animal's body weight per day as the proper amount to feed. According to their site each ounce of their frozen Raw Chicken product offers 65 calories.

From www.caloriesperhour.com we learn: “Because calories and joules are so small, when referring to food and energy expenditure it has become common practice to refer to them in multiples of 1,000. The term for 1,000 calories is kilocalories or kcal, and the term for 1,000 joules is kilojoules or kJ.
1 calorie = 4.184 joules
1 kilocalorie (kcal) = 4.184 kilojoules (kJ)
In the scientific and educational communities, it is also common practice to refer to kilocalories as Calories (with an uppercase "c"). However, outside these communities, it has become common practice to simply refer to kilocalories as calories. Therefore when you read 500 calories on a food label it actually means 500 kilocalories, and the same holds true when you calculate an activity that burns 500 calories.”

Ferrets require a minimum of 200 to 300 kcal per day. For a 2 pound ferret using a “very active” designation according to Nature’s Variety feeding guide, that ferret would only need 1 ½ ounces daily of their product. This would yield only 97.5 calories. The reality is that feeding only 1 ½ ounces per day of their product would eventually starve your ferret to death!

Besides a serious caloric shortfall, I cannot see how a product listing so many fairly high protein animal items and claiming that these items make up 95% of the product, has an end product with such a very low protein percentage!

Add to that there are almost twice as many plant items in the recipe as animal source ingredients and it is topped off with TWO different sweeteners; this product may be O.K. (barely) to feed to cats and dogs which CAN make use of the plant ingredients, but it is FAR from ideal for a ferret diet.

This manufacturer also proudly proclaims their product conforms to AAFCO standards (a set of standards that natural feeders know doesn’t prove anything). This mfr. Also proudly proclaim several times their product originates from USDA inspected facilities, but the ingredients are NOT human grade.

They’ve just glommed on to catchy labeling, they use feel good terms (“natural”, “Holistic”, healthy, balanced, beneficial”. They contradict themselves in at least one area when they say they are undergoing AAFCO testing to develop a feline recipe complete and balanced for all life stages yet in another paragraph they say they do NOT have a specific cat diet! They go on to say it would be o.k. to feed cats the dog diet and vice versa – because they claim cats and dogs would eat the same thing in the wild!

They also claim they add their 5% plant items because that’s what a wild animal would eat from the stomach contents of its prey, yet time and time again natural feeders recognize that very often the stomach and intestines of prey animals, especially the larger prey, are NOT eaten at all. I myself have often seen mouse stomachs and intestines left behind.

The claim they double grind their bones down to “.25” inch screen. O.k. but just because a prey animal has a skeleton doesn’t mean the predator devours the entire skeleton! Yes, certainly they eat SOME bones but not even bears devour entire skeletons!

Completely grinding entire skeletons will definitely skew the meat to bone ratio. Bone does offer some protein source but not a HIGH source (generally only 20% of bone is protein); maybe because ground bone is their second ingredient is why their protein percentage is so low!

AS a natural feeder and whole prey proponent I am definitely skeptical when it comes to manufactured processed foods being passed off as “natural”. It behooves all natural feeders to investigate the label claims, do a bit of math and question the statements made so blithely.

How can a food be completely balanced to all pets at all stages of their life? These people claim their dog recipe is adequate for a cat and that when they get their cat recipe it will be adequate for a dog!

One thing is for certain when you crunch the numbers, Nature’s Variety recipe is NO good for a ferret! Read between those label lines for the real story!

Cheers,
Kim

[mustelidmusk]

Kim,

Before the numbers will make sense, you need to determine the basis upon which the analysis has been made and convert everything to the same common denominator. The 35-50% protien we commonly see on bags of kibble vs. 13% protien on Nature's Variety reflects the difference in moisture content between the two foods. Pet foods are typically converted to percentages on a dry matter basis. Bob Churches Diet 101 series touches on this.

Here are some gross estimates for a mouse. I keep this in mind for casual analysis of ferret foods:
~60% crude protein
~25-30% fat
Plus, a mouse is ~70% water.
Obviously, those numbers don't add up either. Why not? The water is being measured according t a different basis.

So, the Nature's Variety is not a real mouse, but is not completely whacked out as it seems upon the firt look at the package. You'll see this same thing wiith canned cat foods, this is why the dry matter basis (DMB) is used - it enables you to compare canned foods to dry foods.

Make sense?
-jennifer

[Heather]

I'm going to jump in this one a little late, after you guys have had a good hack at it already
I've got a slightly different background in raw feeding and have been doing it for awhile. A 5% veggie contend isn't going to harm your furbaby (I certainly wouldn't add any more veggies to a purchased product), he may not benefit by any huge amount but he does benefit some. It doesn't feed him, not in the visual sense, it feeds the gut bacteria...not the ferret. Remember, the gut bacteria, helps digest the food so that the ferret can absorb the nutrients from what it eats. The ferret has one of the shortest digestive tracts, hence requiring the system to be even more efficient. I've been trying an experiment that has been going on for about 6 or 8 months. I have a couple of ferrets with IBD. If I feed straight up meat, bone and offal. Their IBD symptoms appear and disappear. When I mix squash, pumpkin or lettuce greens these symptoms seem to disappear. I'm still working on this but I honestly think that there may indeed be a working relationship between our furbabies eating small amounts of above ground veggies. Yes, for those of you who do total prey model, you're going what gives??!!. My ferret never eats the stomach or the intestinal tract....nor do mine. It's always left behind for me to find . I think in that case, if they were wild then they probably find this supplement somewhere else. Cats and dogs eat grass, why not ferrets. If you were to watch closely you would see that they don't only do it to vomit. If you were to watch closely, they sometimes choose specific grasses depending whether they indeed wish to make themselves vomit or not. I have always been a firm believer in raw and only raw, now I'm wondering if I may have been a little too much that way.
As far as oils. I've tried feeding flax seed oil. I couldn't get it to work. Not with my dog, cats or ferrets. They didn't seem to metabolize it correctly. My dog and one cat went insane with the itch. I know that for the short time that I used it, more than half of the business also developed a huge itchy problem. I won't use plant matter oils. All my fats are animal based.
These are just my observations of my furbabies.
ciao

[josiesmom]

HI Jennifer,

This is why labeling out to be standardized!

Nature's Variety touts feeding raw as a proper form, I'd agree (even though their version of raw isn't exactly raw) because raw foods offer the predator proper moisture content when eating!

But as you noted many label percentages are figured as "Dry Matter" I cannot locate the NV labeling determination so I'll assume we'll need to figure dry matter percentages because what is given is Wet matter percentages.

Dry matter is calculated by taking the nutrient percentage you want to determine as listed on the label (in this case for their Raw frozen chicken it is a Protein Min of 13%) divide that by the reciprocal of the moisture content (in this case their moisture content is 68% meaning the reciprocal is 32%) 13 divided by 32 means the Dry matter protein is .40625 or about 41% which would be great IF you fed this as a concentrated DRY matter food!

But this product is NOT fed dry- it is fed WET (thawed) so the animal being fed is still not getting the required percentages or calories at the quantities they recommend feeding.

www.Rodentpro.com offers a great chart on nutrients from whole prey sources and even lists them as DM (dry matter) forms!

They state that an adult mouse dry matter crude protein is 55.8%, Crude Fat is 23.6% offering 5.25 kcal/g so an average size adult mouse of 25 grams would offer the ferret 131.25 kcal!

Besides being a better protein and fat source the mouse also offers more calories in a smaller package, better oral health, more appropriate fiber for bowel cleansing and higher digestibility overall.

Personally this product is better viewed as a good product to transition PEOPLE to the idea of raw diets for their pets. But as a good diet to transition ferrets? I'll pass.

Cheers,
Kim

[josiesmom]

Hi Heather,

I'd be interested to learn more details about your experiment. Such as How old are your ferrets?

Were they raised on raw/natural or switched?

What ages?

Did they show symptoms of IBD before RAW/Natural?

Have you been logging the animal protein sources that seem to bother them?

Are these protein sources devoid of artificial enhancements?

Have you had your ferrets tested for Coccidia, Giardia or Helicobactor infections?

Reading I've done suggests a significant percentage of ferrets (some think practically all) are infected with helicobactor that will flare at various times.

Have you noticed a correlation to any weather, seasonal or daylight patterns?

I really think we need to view our ferrets as separate from what dogs and cats do, because their systems ARE completely different.

If what was o.k for a cat or dog to ingest worked for ferrets, then we wouldn't see so many ferrets in dietary distress - because a significant amount of new ferret owners DO feed their ferrets dog or cat food! Which as more experience ferrants realize will only cause all sorts of problems for the ferret.

Cheers,
Kim