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Post by jojodancer on Sept 8, 2008 10:36:32 GMT -5
I don't know where to put this, but as I was catching up on my FHL this weekend, one person put an admitedly short synopsis of Bob Church's talk from the last show. She said she wasn't able to hear the whole thing and only got bits and pieces of it. Here is the link to the post: www.naturalferrets.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16267&p=16267&hilit=rickets#p16267What intrigues me is that she said that Bob Church had observed quite a few ferrets with past signs of rickets due to improper feeding of BARF/WP. Wow! that freaks me out! I'm the last one you need to freak out by mentioning that improper feeding may lead to rickets. I get too paranoid that my raw feeding is not good for my ferrets, and they should go back to kibble. However, the poster adds that Bob is noticing a lot of the American Diseases popping up in Europe as they adopt American practices www.naturalferrets.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16268I don't know. Does anyone have any thought son this? I'm freaked out that my *ground goop* and ziwipeak may now lead to my ferrets getting rickets. My *ground goop* contains bones, organs, and muscle and meet *ahem* the AAFCO standards. I felt confident and comfortable that I was giving my 6 the best care I could, and felt totally comfortable with my decision. Now I'm freaking out!
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Post by Heather on Sept 8, 2008 13:10:27 GMT -5
Take a deep breath sweety Your mix is ok Rickets is caused by long term calcium deficency and not enough organs. What people are doing is actually feeding ground hamburg to their ferrets and nothing else (that's worse than feeding kibble, at least kibbles pretends to be balanced, a diet of lousy hamburg doesn't pretend to be anything ). Remember your quote "due to the improper feeding of the BARF regime". You're doing ok Others have spoken about this as well, Bob Church isn't the only one that's observing this problem. If you read some of Billinghursts articles he touches on this problem as well and so have other raw advocates. As long as you feed a mix of proteins, with bones and organs included you won't run into problems. Even those feeding prey have discovered a problem of feeding just prey. Most feed very young animals....which leads to calcium difficiencies too. You have to feed a mix of older animals that have stronger more calcified bones, as well as young animals, something your ferret needs. A much better feed is to mix them up but sometimes if you're only feeding cull, (usually young animals), to keep only good breed stock you run into this problem too. Yes, they're seeing increases in the diseases in the UK that hasn't been observed before. Now there may be a couple of reasons, at least suppositions on some peoples parts. One the increased use of kibbles, which as everyone knows has a tendency to be easier to feed than natural...what's there to think about Another is an increased use of vetting. According to some sources, because the ferret was basically a working pet, sometimes vetting care wasn't used as frequently. Pet ferrets are now on the increase and vets are now catching and treating some of these diseases. I have no idea as to the truth of these statements but would assume that it's somewhere on the middle ground. All in all, you are feeding ok, your mix covers all the bases. ;D so don't worry too much ciao
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Post by josiesmom on Sept 9, 2008 22:04:00 GMT -5
Yes, I've read where Bob C. has mentioned the issues with Rickets before regarding improper feeding of "RAW" diets. Which is one reason we need to focus not so much on RAW, as on NATURAL PREY or NATURAL PREY MODELS; as well as more natural keeping.
BARF diets really are and should only be a stepping stone for some ferrets to an actual natural diet.
Don't forget that Rickets is also a result of a lack of Vitamin D, which is necessary for proper Calcium utilization in the body; and the Calcium needs to have a proper ratio to phosphorous. So all three of these play together in the problem of Rickets.
Most of us here consistently talk about being sure to offer your ferrets edible bones, either from raw chicken wings, or cornish game hen or the bones of mice and even crushed egg shells.
Bones will offer a more proper calcium to phosphorous ratio, while egg shells will be high in calcium, so we need to offer things that are also high in phosphorous.
This is why we also drone on and on about offering variety of natural food sources.
A diet of JUST chicken meat would definitely result in a nutritional deficit for the ferret. Even a diet of JUST chicken wings, while having bone, the chicken wing is still only ONE source of food and as such does NOT offer a "balanced" nutrient base.
Cheers, Kim
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Post by Heather on Sept 9, 2008 22:47:07 GMT -5
I agree but not. I honestly believe and have fed Barf diet for over 10 yrs, it is if practiced properly, a good and solid diet. It is not just a stepping stone, it can be an end as well. To push prey is not always best for all ferret care people. I agree if this is indeed possible then do it but many cannot or will not. Does this make them worse caregivers? No, I don't believe so. If you feed chicken, and only chicken then yes you have a problem but if you feed variety of meats, with bone and offal then you should not have a problem balancing your diet. Can you feed ground mix and still balance the diet yes, technically speaking you can. Do you loose with muscle and jaw exercise, yes...you may even have to brush your ferrets teeth. I have yet to have a problem when feeding ground raw to sick ferrets. My guys (healthy) have access to it 24/7, it certainly doesn't hurt them. It certainly hasn't done any damage to my cats who refuse to eat whole meats or prey for that matter. Prey may be the optimum way of feeding but there are alternatives and we cannot ignore those alternatives. For many they exist and are the only way they will feed their furbabies. ciao
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lorelei0922
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Happily Feeding Natural!
Posts: 245
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Post by lorelei0922 on Sept 11, 2008 15:10:25 GMT -5
osteodystrophy is more common in small kits to behonest.. at this stage it is tempting for raw feeding owners to offer... simple things.. mince or chicken etc... which deprive the mum and then the kits of much needed calcium/phosperous... its easy to remedy if you just keep up a good raw diet for your nursing jill and maybe add a bit of kitten milk for added calcium...
i've seen kits with osteodystrophy.. and its CERTAINLY a miserable existance!!
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Post by Heather on Sept 11, 2008 23:41:27 GMT -5
I've heard that by giving a good diet and supplementation that they can remedy this. Is this the case?? ciao
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lorelei0922
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Happily Feeding Natural!
Posts: 245
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Post by lorelei0922 on Sept 12, 2008 4:18:52 GMT -5
it is the case that you can improve it.. and reverse the deficiancy with a good diet and suppliments.. but sometimes when they are kits it developes soft bones that then get deformed .. and sometimes even break and knit back deformed without you even realizing this is happening.
the kits will look morelike little seals there front legs looking like lil flippers...or turtles with the front and or back legs stuck out at the sides
It can also lead to sudden death after aprox day 80 of growth... a perfectly normal looking kit will just poof.. die for no apparent reason..very sad stuff!
but you are right it isn't an immediate death sentence or for sure long term problem... getting them onto a proper complete diet be it raw or supplimented with added calcium or kibble which will include such stuff as nasty as it is lol..can reverse the problem very quickly!
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Post by Heather on Sept 12, 2008 12:43:04 GMT -5
Thank you I would assume that it would be similar to osteoperosis in humans then where the body starts consuming the bone to get the calcium needed. By adding the proper mineral concentrations then you can repair but not necessarily reverse the damage. We were discussing a problem encountered by someone who had fed only prey, but very young animals and her guys had stopped eating any whole meats with bone in. When they were tested they were all discovered to be calcium deficient and one had actually crashed. She now supplements with kibble as she's afraid (for obvious reasons) of feeding a whole prey diet. I had my guys tested just after her (being concerned that possibly a raw diet didn't allow for all the minerals to be properly assimulated) but my guys were fine with the calcium levels being well within the norm. ciao
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