ferretfreke
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder[/b]
Posts: 235
|
Post by ferretfreke on Aug 13, 2008 0:21:46 GMT -5
I lost my last ferret a few months ago from complications during her recovery from surgery. I lost another on the surgery table. Having had ferrets for over 10 years, I'm no stranger to dealing with their losses, but when I lose them that way, I always take it much harder. I have an amazing vet for my kids. I've seen him save some pets that I never would have imagined would ever walk out the clinic's doors alive again. I think a big part of it being so hard when they die that way is a false sense of hope that everything will be okay because they are being taken care of by Dr. Folland. Amazing vet or not, he can only do so much tho.
I also work for Dr Folland as a vet tech and we had a few cases of ferrets that came in for adrenalectomies then they went Addison's (under active adrenal), which is even more serious and after a month or two of serious treatment they ended up dead.
I by no means panic when one of my ferrets goes adrenal, but it just seems like such a crap shoot whichever direction you decide to go with their treatment. I do my best to prevent it. I keep them on their natural light cycle, I alter them later or adopt late alters when I have the choice, but either way if you have ferrets you have adrenal disease. The veterinary community's latest theory on the cause is spaying/neutering them at all. And you can't really keep a ferret as a pet without doing that. My theory is that they're too specialized. You may try your hardest, but you can't replicate nature.
I've dealt with adrenal dz many times with my own ferrets over the years, choosing different treatments for each. The reason I bring this up is because my BillyBob is showing the classic adrenal signs and I have such mixed feelings about the treatments. In the human field, studies show that surgery is really hard on the body, not surprising. Just recovering from the anesthesia alone can take a couple of years. Knowing that and with some of my past experiences with my ferrets and surgeries, as well as what I see at work, I'm very apprehensive about having him opened up. Don't get me wrong, I have had positive outcomes with some of my others having surgery and I've seen many at work. I've also had and seen them do really well with lupron or melatonin, but with that there is the risk of the tumors becoming invasive.
I'm very interested in hearing what the opinions of the people on this forum are.
|
|
|
Post by suds on Aug 13, 2008 5:06:22 GMT -5
I have not had to deal with AD yet and hopfuly never will. But it seems from all the forums I been reading that the chances are very high that I will at 1 point. It is always good to see many differnt points of views on how people approach differnt methods of treatment .I can not say what I would do but at least I can arm myself with lots of info because of threads like theese .....
|
|
|
Post by mustelidmusk on Aug 13, 2008 9:02:05 GMT -5
Hi,
I don't take surgery lightly - I've even been through a couple major surgeries mysself. But what you're describing suggests that, even though your vet is incredibly talented with other species, he may not have as much experience with ferrets.
Loss of any animal on the table should be very very rare and caused by unexpected complication. Perhaps the ferrets going in for surgery are poor candidates for surgery in the first place.
Ferrets ARE different, administration of the anesthesia is is critical. And an experience ferret vet is in and out of surgery very quickly. Rcovery procedures are also very critical. If you vet does not treat a LOT of ferrets and small animals, his judgement and skill may not be as accomplished with ferrets as with cats and dogs. This is not at all uncommon.
Regarding the addisonian ferret in cases of bilateral adrenalectomy, I've observed extremely good results with florinef. If your vet is resecting the vena cava, then this is more likely the cause of ferrets doing poorly with bilateral addrenalectomies than addisonian issues. Or, perhaps there are some other unrecognized health issues that wold make the ferret a poor candidte for surgery to begin with.
That being said, I seem to recall a series of posts to the FML by Bob Church, and he basically collected some casual data from ferret owners regarding longevity of adrenal ferrets that have and have not had adrenal surgery. I beleive the finding (based on heresay responses from ferret owners rather than actual controlled data) was that both urgerya nd non-surgery patients experienced very similar longevity. But many feel the quality of th frret's life with the surgery is better than those who opt for alternative therapies.
Of course, this tudy was done years ago, so the use of Lupron and meltonin implants are more recent introductions that help the quality of life significantly.
For those who may be new to ferrets, adrenal disease affects approximately 70% of all ferets that have been spayed/nuetered. Exposure to prolonge/unnatural periods of light may be placed in greater risk of developing adreanl problm because ferrets ar very photo-sensitive, and their endocrine systems are VERY sensitive. The spay and neuter practices disrupt the endocrine system by removing the sex hormanes, which are also produced in very small quanitities by the adrenal glands. Once the gonads are removed, the adrenal glands becomes overactive trying to make up to the loss of gonads. The end result is commonly adrenal disease. -jennifer
|
|
|
Post by josiesmom on Aug 13, 2008 9:43:31 GMT -5
Something I wonder about regarding ferrets and adrenal but haven't found an answer to yet; and this question stems from my own personal experience of having a complete hysterectomy when I was 32.
this put my body into a surgical "advanced aging" - the Dr. Rx typical hormone replacements which I took for a year, but then switched to alternative hormone "therapy" using plant estrogens from food sources. So far so good.
But I realize this surgery has put a burden upon my body that normally wouldn't have been encountered until my mid fifties. Technically this surgery has shortened my lifespan.
Now for the ferret issue: Being that ferrets are neutered at such an early age, and even late alters still end up altered (because it isn't healthy for jills to remain unbred and it isn't feasible to leave hobs intact as pets). Has anyone ever done a hormone replacement study on ferrets?
Since the adrenal issue stems from the fact that the adrenal gland is attempting to make up for what the missing hormone producing organs would normally do. What if any help could be offered to the adrenal glands before they became overworked?
If I feed my female ferrets predominantly female mice can they utilize the estrogens from the mouse for themselves? Can the male ferrets utilize the testosterone from the male mice? If I feed the ferrets mice of the opposite sex will this have an effect upon them? Or are the hormones within the mice degraded by digestion?
Currently none of my ferrets are exhibiting adrenal issues. But knowing that females are often affected and I have four girls three of which are in the age range typically seen with adrenal ferrets it is always in the back of my mind.
If Faylene develops symptoms, I'd most likely opt for wither Lupron or Melatonin for her. At 7 its just too risky to put her through surgery.
Windy being so tiny would probably also not be a good surgical candidate.
With Crystal being deaf and likely already having Neural Crest Disorder - I wonder what unseen problems she may have that might interfere with surgery?
So that leaves Fizzle, she'd likely do o.k. except that she is a ferret that stresses easily - shivers and shakes in new places and cannot bear to be caged for longer than it takes to eat her meal.
So- more than likely I'd end up doing the melatonin or Lupron approach.
I still would like to find out info on the mouse hormones though!
Cheers, Kim
|
|
ferretfreke
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw and Whole Prey Feeder[/b]
Posts: 235
|
Post by ferretfreke on Aug 13, 2008 12:24:58 GMT -5
Dr. Folland by no means lacks experience with ferrets. He's been working with them for over 20 years and keeps updated on the latest treatments, etc regarding ferrets. The two ferrets of mine that I spoke of losing weren't andrenal surgeries. The one I lost on the table was euthanised on the table because she had a mass the size of a golfball, invading her major organs. I was just trying to get across my fear of surgery and why I have that fear. He doesn't resect the vena cava either, he does cryosurgery on the right adrenals. In writing the above, I really didn't want ppl to question my vet's experience, knowledge, etc.. Adrenal surgery is a major surgery and when you do a high volume of them, you are going to run across the occasional complicated cases. I mainly spoke of the few that didnt work out because unfortunately they stick out in my mind, probably because most of the other cases have done so well it can be kind of shocking when they dont. I'm sorry if I seem touchy about this. I really tried to write the above so that this didn't come up.
"I seem to recall a series of posts to the FML by Bob Church, and he basically collected some casual data from ferret owners regarding longevity of adrenal ferrets that have and have not had adrenal surgery. I beleive the finding (based on heresay responses from ferret owners rather than actual controlled data) was that both urgerya nd non-surgery patients experienced very similar longevity."
I've found this to be true with my ferrets actually. I've had them live to 8 1/2 years old with the surgery and without it, but without it even, they still had very good quality of life. Maybe I just answered my own question. I'm thinking I'm leaning towards not doing surgery at least for now. I already implanted him with a melatonin chip a couple weeks ago. So I think I'll go with that.
You brought up a very good point Kim. I've wondered that myself and not just with ferrets.
Thank you Jennifer and Kim for your responses.
|
|
|
Post by mustelidmusk on Aug 13, 2008 17:50:06 GMT -5
Hi! Ferretfreke, I'm glad to hear you have an experienced ferret vet....sometimes that is not the case, which can end up being bad for the ferret. I'm always happy to hear about another good ferret vet out there helping ferrets and their owners. And Ferretfreke is right...ferrets are sometimes lost on the operating table - even with outstanding ferret vets. Anyway, It's my understanding that it's not as much a lack of hormones in the system that stimulates the adrenal glands. It has more to do with the lack of "messages" which are normally sent from the gonads to the pituitary gland. Here's a cheesey simplificaation... The piuitary tells the gonads to produce sex hormones, and the gonads then tell the pituitary that the mission has been accomplished. If the gonads are removed, the pituitary never gets the feedback that the mission has been accomplished. As a result, the pituitary continues to send messages expecting a response it will never get. The adrenals pick up on the pituitary's request for more hormones, and the addrenals produce the hormones. BUT, the adrenal glands cannot send the "mission accomplished" message back to the pituitary. so the vicious cycle continues, which results in sdrenal disease. Lupron stops the pituitary gland from sending additional messages. So simly adding hormones will not stop the pituitary from stimulating hormone production. AT least that's my layman's understanding of how it all happens. -jennifer
|
|
|
Post by josiesmom on Aug 15, 2008 21:13:22 GMT -5
Going by "generic" hormonal actions:
Gender hormones are produced in the gonads for sure as well as mamary glands. But they are produced according to signals sent after puberty and according to the levels within the blood stream. The levels also change during seasonal changes as well as in responses to pheromones and even visual input (for some animals). The pituitary gland and thyroid gland pretty much control puberty timing of hormone changes.
The adrenal glands aren't the normal origin for gender hormones to be produced. The adrenals are doing this as a response to the pituitary. Yes? So if the blood stream and tissues have the gender hormones within them then the signals (or as many) wouldn't be sent to produce what's lacking.
With a hysterectomy for people hormone replacement supplements control many of the very real side effects of NOT having reproductive organs anymore. If it works for people, I don't see why it wouldn't work for animals as well as ferrets.
We know hoe removing these reproductive organs affects their temperaments so maybe the reason studies haven't been done to use replacement hormones is in order to avoid re instilling the undesired temperaments?
I doubt if ingesting specific gendered mice would create an equal amount of hormone replacement - if at all- but I do wonder if it just migh offer enough that the adrenals aren't over worked trying to do something they weren't designed to do in the first place?
Cheers, Kim
|
|