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Post by Heather on Aug 26, 2010 2:05:20 GMT -5
You may not want to use gr. peppers....not even my dog is fond of those Any greens that you use, you may want to make sure that they're mild flavoured. Keep the buried veggies low, high sugar content. Take a look at your glycemic index and make sure that you don't double up too much on his sugar veggies. For example I don't feed carrots or potatoes (starch becomes sugar) Just some thoughts. As with all things, moderation ciao
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Post by mustelidmusk on Aug 26, 2010 9:40:09 GMT -5
Actually, I've known a LOT of ferts that like green bell peppers. Tomichi (AKA Meach) likes jalapenos - at least when they are stuffed with cheddar cheese, wrapped in bacon and grilled!!! I was holding her while we were munching on our appetizers, and Meach lunges over to the jalapeno, which was in my other hand, and she ripped a huge chunk of the pepper off and chowed it down. We we waiting for her to start spitting it out - but she started going back for MORE. I had to stop her You may want to offer Koda a small piece of green pepper to see what he thinks. Regarding the mushrooms, do a google search on the mushroom types and check out the pictures. Shiitake will off better health benefits than oyster. Oyster mushrooms are noted for reducing cholesterol because they contain statin-like compounds. but the shiitake have better nutrition in general. If the mushrooms are dried, look up "dried shiitake" and "dried oyster mushroom" this will help you determine which is which. In general, the shiitakes will probably be darker and have stems. The oyster mushrooms tend to not have a stem - they are kind of "fan-shaped" - they fan out from the bottom rather than having a distinct cap and stem. If you're concerned with the possible carcinogens in mushrooms, just heat them in the microwave before freezing or serving. That will take care of the problem. Calcium supplements - are difficult to feed because they are finely ground. When you feed bone, not all is absorbed as you can see in the poop. With things like bone meal that are ground, ferrets can absorb more because it's finely ground. This is why I asked about calcium supplements when Koda peed up a storm. Some people feed a little bone meal if their ferts are not particularly good at eating bone. jennifer
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Post by katt on Aug 28, 2010 13:07:27 GMT -5
Hmmmm I thought they were anti-carinogenic? Koda had an odd looking poop yesterday. I am keeping a really close eye on him and I am going to get some more pumpkin (to alternate with the mushrooms) and such today. If his poops don't look normal very soon, to the vet he goes. *sigh* Goodbye chances of paying back my student loans in a timely matter. This little guy is going to put me on the streets if he keeps it up! So questions...with what I have posted the past several weeks in mind.... What do you guys think could be the range of possible issues if something is going on with his little belly? From there (for each possibility): What are the possible things that the vet could/would do to test for those things, and how much do they cost on average? What are the treatments for those things if that turns out to be the case? Hopefully I will not need to take him in, but IF I do, I want to have an idea in advance of the different possibilities of where my vet might want to go...
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Post by Heather on Aug 28, 2010 17:51:31 GMT -5
The constant loose stools....tummy issues...IBD??? Biopsy to confirm. Do a journal and see if the loose stools coincide with any particular meal..protein sensitivity?? What are you feeding supplement wise? Is it possible to be something that you've added to his diet? Treats? Parasite?...stool samples are cheaper. Bacterial infections? Blood work is often the most inconclusive of tests at least in regards to stomach upsets. I've found that it usually requires several cultures before making a best guess . Jennifer, have you got anything to add to this list? I've got a couple of other ones but I don't want to broach those ones without blood work to back those statements up . ciao
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Post by katt on Aug 28, 2010 18:48:17 GMT -5
What is involved in a biopsy as far as the procedure itself goes? Do they have to open him up again? :S I can't afford another $1000 surgery! His first surgery was $$$$ I didn't/still don't have... Thanks goodness there is Care Credit IF I do have to do another expensive treatment for him, but *fingers crosses* that that is not the case! I definitely plan to do the journal thing before I take him in. Something just tells me that beef might be the issue... I am going to go get some new food and start with one meat at a time and see where that gets us. I think 2 days each meat should be good, or should I stick with each meat for longer before adding/moving to the next to fully determine the effects on his stomach? I'm going to start with turkey or chicken because I honestly think the beef might be the culprit...esp the beef organ. So I will start chicken meat and bone, add chicken organs, then turkey meat/bone. Then lamb -> buffalo -> pork -> pork organ -> Beef -> beef organ. Hopefully we can get to the culprit. I know he does well on mice. And other than fish oil, olive oil, the occasional Vaseline+FerretVite (which he has been getting since I had him pretty much), and then the recent mushrooms I haven't been supplementing. The velvet antler is new but the runny poop came before that, same for the freeze dried raw, and the occasional pumpkin, sweet potato, and meat baby food. I haven not given him any meat baby food or sweet potato in several months.
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Post by katt on Aug 28, 2010 19:35:23 GMT -5
Jennifer, have you got anything to add to this list? I've got a couple of other ones but I don't want to broach those ones without blood work to back those statements up . ciao What else could it be? I mean he is too young to have many of the big ferret diseases. If he somehow has insulinoma I would be shocked because he has never been on anything but raw/whole prey other than the first 2 months of his life which was goodness knows what kibble RC feeds, then Marshall's at the Pet Store. He is too young (I hope!) for adrenal...unless it is juvenile lymphomas or something...? Hopefully it is just beef! *crosses fingers* I am going grocery shopping on the way home from work here in a little bit to pick up some yummy chicken wings. How long should I stick with that before adding "new" foods? I am hoping that with their fast metabolism, his poop would become normal pretty quickly (assuming chicken is not the issue - but usually he does best on chicken) but I figure it may take his belly a bit to calm down too... Side question. If I were to feed only whole prey, about how many mice a day would he eat do you think? Based on the amount of meat that he eats in a day, my guess would be around 4, give or take, but since it is a fully balanced meal, would he actually eat less? Obviously I would need to add in other foods for variety, but I was just curious. With the food experiment here I thought it might be good to try feeding just whole prey for a while as well to test that - figuring that the natural "fiber" or the fur and such might help kind of clear out his little system.
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Post by sherrylynne on Aug 28, 2010 21:16:50 GMT -5
Just to add a word in here. If my Vincent has beef organs, he vomits blood tinged bile withing 20 minutes, and has blood tinged mucousy poops within one hour. So some sensitivities can really cause problems for them. Boris has yellow/greyish, seedy stool after a bit too much chicken. He can have a meal or two with no problems, but more than that? Problems!
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Post by Heather on Aug 28, 2010 21:35:24 GMT -5
Biopsies are usually done with syringe, though they can be done by surgery. Let's just do one thing at a time....let's try the journal to start. You should be able to tell sensitivity within a few hours but not much longer than 24 hrs. If you want to use elimination diet. Start with 1 protein source....use for 48 hrs, move on to the next at the end. Ghenghis, like sherrylyne's Boris had a low tolerance for a couple of protein sources. I could feed it but not in succession. If you feed the same protein source for 48 hrs you should see results one way or the other. I know that every ferret is different but if there was going to be a reaction I would think it would occcur in that 48 hrs ciao
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Post by mustelidmusk on Aug 28, 2010 22:28:09 GMT -5
Regarding the mushrooms, some people feel that mushroom should not be eaten raw because they contain agaratine, which may be carcinogenic if a lot is fed over a long period of time. Simple solution - heat the mushroom. The agaratine is very fragile and breaks down with a bit of cooking. Regarding possible issues with Koda. 1. Adrenal? VERY unlikely - even though adrenal may cause digestive issues in some cases, Koda is so young that, even if he were adrenal, any adrenal issue would be way too early to cause digestive upset. 2. Insulinoma? VERY unlikely due to his age, his dietary history, and his behavior. Besides he has none of the symptoms associated with Insulnoma 3. Juvenile Lymphoma? Very unlikely - his symptoms do not match at all. with juvie lymphoma, a rapidly growing tumor fills up the mediastinal cavity - the first symptom is usually difficulty breathing and /or dry cough /heart issue exacerbated during exercise. This is because the tumor hets so big it presses on the lungs/heart before you even know the ferret has an issue. Possibilities: 1. Stress poops / stress-related gastric imbalance couple with high levels of bacterial overgrowth and/or general inflammation of the GI system. His tummy may improve with addition of probiotics, enzymes, and bulk on a regular basis. Koda may have an overgrowth of some type of bacteria, parasite/protozoan, etc. that''s. normally present in very small amounts in most ferrets. Prime examples include giardia, coccidia, cryptosporidium, clostridium, Helicobater, campylobacter, pasturella, viruses etc. Stress (including his tummy surgery) may result in a somewhat depressed immune system that allows these "bugs" to flare up from time-to-time. 2. IBD - IBD includes a handful of possible issues with distinct differences that produce the same end results. Wile biopsy is the only way to diagnose IBD, I' would avoid doing this to Koda because he already has damage to his colon - you don't want to damage his gut any further if you don't have to. Besides, even if you KNOW that Koda has IBD, the treatment will probably involve some of the same therapies as for non-IBD issues. A ferret with IBD is more likely to get a stress-related bacterial overgrowth, etc. Does this make sense so far??? I will type more tomorrow...I'm currently falling sleep from the benadryl I ate about 2 hours ago. -jennifer 2.
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Post by katt on Aug 31, 2010 2:58:03 GMT -5
So far not quite sure on the progress. He is eating just turkey as of yesterday and today. His poops are small, and still runny. I am going to add some squash baby food (ingredients: squash, water) tomorrow to see if that helps with the consistency. They are not super dark like when he had beef which was expected, but the color kind of varies. Today's poops had kind of an orange-ish tint to them...yesterday (his day 1 of turkey) he has a few small poops and one decent sized poop. The first ones were seedy, the others runny to soft, and a light orange-tan-yellow-brown color. Kind of like the Menu Boxes (Home, Help, Search...) on the forum but a bit lighter. Then today's was more orangey... I found two poop sources btw if anyone else is itnerested... ferretharmony.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=3457&view=next&sid=f98003d8ebaad83e1bde1e19583898ccwww.smallanimalchannel.com/ferrets/ferret-health/ferret-poop-sheet.aspx
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Post by katt on Aug 31, 2010 2:59:26 GMT -5
Jennifer: what about parasites? Is that a possibility?
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Post by mjohn143 on Aug 31, 2010 19:33:08 GMT -5
I saw stuff at the pet store for itchy ferrets... I think it was tea tree oil spray. I didn't look at the ingredients and don't really know what is considered an essential oil, but I was wondering if that would be bad for them or not. I know essential oils are. It was Marshall brand and made specifically for ferrets, but I know that really isn't saying much considering their "wonderful reputation".
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Post by katt on Aug 31, 2010 20:57:09 GMT -5
Hmmm I thought tea tree oil was bad for them? I could be wrong though. It would be nice. He has been itching a little less lately so that is good. He is still an itchy boy though. lol Ok guys so I am not too sure his poop is "improving." It is not dark like on beef, but it is still goopy. For the last three days he has been eating nothing but turkey. He gets a mix of turkey neck, turkey breast and back (with ribs), and turkey drumstick meat, as well as any skin and fat that was on the meat, though not a whole lot of that. This afternoon I added acorn squash baby food. No squashy poops yet as I JUST gave it to him. However, he went from his food dish to the poop box and this is his most recent poop (his last no-squash poop). It is a good size, but the color concerns me. I tried to take some pictures in different lighting and stuff to get the color but it is tough as the lighting in my apartment is terrible and my camera flash is bright. lol So here goes! (Side note - I can honestly say that I have never been so obsessed with poop in my life! ) Oops sorry, the pics are still loading. haha I will post them any minute...
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Post by katt on Aug 31, 2010 21:16:57 GMT -5
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Post by mustelidmusk on Aug 31, 2010 21:55:06 GMT -5
Katt, If this has been going on for a while and if Koda has been loosing weight, I recommend taking Koda in for a fecal check. Since it was not all that long ago since Koda had is surgery, you may call and ask if you can drop off a sample without an appointment. If the vet finds bacteria, or parasites, he may be willng let you pick up the meds and avoid the charge for an office visit. He may want Koda in for a recheck later.
Koda's stools have a LOT of mucous, whcih may be just about anything from bacteria to intestinal infection, to IBD, to viral infection, parasites, etc. It also looks like Koda may have some infection and/or blood in the stools (but this coul be my monitor).
I honestly would avoid biopsy since it damages a spot in the colon (yet another scar on the intestine. ) Plus, IBD commonly involves antibiotic treament anyway. If after antibitic treatment, poop problems persist, the vet will probably try some prednisone. The bottom line is that if Koda does have IBD, the last thing you want to do is damage even a tiny bit of his colon. (also, just because one spot on the colon shows no IBD, it doesn't mean that the entire colon is IBD-free.
Is Koda's nose ever warm after he's been playing? It should still feel cool and moist/wet. If it's warm, his immune system is fighting something.
I recommend getting his poop checked. Prolonged poop problems can eventually affect the ability of the colon to absorb nutrients.
Remember, many ferrets are shedding now, an shedding is stressful fo some ferrets. Koda could easily have a flare-up that requires antibiotics to clear up the issue.
-jennifer
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