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Post by Heather on Sept 17, 2009 12:39:37 GMT -5
Thank goodness that it passed for him and yes, how like things. Rush them to the vet and have them act like nothing had happened. I can remember little Zena staggering like a little drunk down the hall and grabbing her and rushing her to the vet. She couldn't even keep her head up, poor little thing. So I have her all wrapped up in a baby blanket with just her little head poking out and she's sleeping. I go in to see the vet and doesn't she wake up all bright eyed and bushy tailed. No staggering, no funny head tilt We take her BG and it's a low normal We did this a number of times before it did finally catch up with her and we did find out what her issue actually was. I'm sure she had a lot of fun with it anyway as she loved to ride in the car all curled up in a baby's blanket. I'm glad that Keller is feeling better, things just wouldn't be the same if he got sick. Give him a hug and tell him to get better and stop licking his hot spot (it won't get better if he doesn't) Talk at you later. ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Sept 20, 2009 10:34:46 GMT -5
Update on Skit and Keller's acceptance of various foods: bone-in quail (those birds are really to small for me to bother de-boning) - yes, if I cut it up into pieces; chicken hearts, beef kidneys - yes, though Skit's still a bit hesitant about the hearts; duck, rabbit - yes; chicken gizzards - NO
Keller's hot spot has starting healing since I began putting the steroid cream on it. Hopefully it'll be gone soon
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Post by Heather on Sept 21, 2009 0:26:17 GMT -5
I'm glad that Keller's hot spot is starting to heal, I can't imagine that it's comfortable for him . Can you put together a menu (a week) that details what you're feeding and who's eating what? I think you've done one before, all you need to do is update that one. Your guys are progressing well. It's been a hard uphill battle but you're doing really well. I've noticed more and more positive advances. It's funny that they won't eat the gibblets...that's what my guys are getting tonight...there's always battle over these little treats I will check in on you tomorrow. ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Sept 25, 2009 0:33:47 GMT -5
What I'll probably need to do is chart what I'm giving them over a week and then post it - although tonight I discovered that Keller is willing to eat "jerky" - he found a piece of quail that Skit must have thrown out of her bowl and hidden (it looked to be at least a day old and hard as a rock) and gnawed on it for about 20 minutes. He actually ate it! I tried dangling a hopper mouse in front of Skit tonight - she got excited and played with it - for about ten minutes, on and off - then got bored and walked away. It's currently under the kitchen table, and I'm about to throw it in her bowl before going to bed. I've got some chicken hearts and more quail thawing out for tomorrow.
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Post by Heather on Sept 25, 2009 11:13:42 GMT -5
It sounds good. Maybe, Skit needs the mouse cut open to figure it's meat...or have you tried that before or maybe it's now time to try it again. Actually a chart would be great....sounds good. Ferret made jerky always seems to go over. I've tried different jerky for my guys and they won't eat it but get some ugly piece of meat that they've stashed for days and all of a sudden it's worth fighting for You really have to wonder ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Sept 25, 2009 22:23:26 GMT -5
Well, when I went to put the mouse in her bowl, I found that SHE'D already torn it open a bit - and smeared a piece of intestine across the floor . Didn't eat any of it, though. I put the mouse in her bowl, where it remained until Keller ate it tonight. Here's the food everyone got from yesterday to today: Thursday night: Ferrets - soup with pumpkin and one mouse thrown in (subsequently grabbed by Keller - I caught him as he was attempting to stash it under the couch and made him put it in the cage) Cats: Evo dry cat food for Morphia and Anna, mixed with WELLNESS brand Turkey & Salmon canned food (grain-free), WELLNESS food and one mouse for Skit (Mouse uneaten) Friday AM: Evo dry cat and Red Bites Small dog mix for ferrets, Evo cat w/Wellness T&S for Morphia and Anna, 3 chicken hearts & 1 aging mouse mixed with Wellness T&S for Skit. PM: Ferrets - Pumpkin-free soup with bits of quail wing, quail ribs, and half a chicken heart. (I didn't do any encouraging this time, just watched - both Ushba and Llullu occasionally chewed on stuff, so I think they may be starting to try things on their own. Fingers crossed). Additionally, Keller ate the leftover mouse and the single leftover chicken heart from Skit's breakfast. Leftover soup and dry food will be put in ferret cage overnight. Cats: Dry and canned for Morphia and Anna; chunks of bone-in quail (1 oz total) and half a chicken heart mixed with quail egg, shell, and blood. So far, she's eaten part of one chunk. All cats LOVE the canned food
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Post by Heather on Sept 27, 2009 7:46:53 GMT -5
That mouse inside out was a start. Keep at it, she's actually getting the hang of it. I'm sure that Keller is enjoying her "mistakes" . Great news about Ushba and Llullu things are moving along. Chewing is a good thing Eating it on their own is even better. What would happen if you took the cats off the dry cat food (I'm assuming that this is kibbles) altogether and fed them only the moist and raw? Sorry, for the delay in answering, I've been fighting a migraine and was only answering a little bit here and there when I can stand to look at the screen . ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Sept 28, 2009 1:37:22 GMT -5
Sorry that you had a migraine - I hope it's passed. I'm not sure what would happen if I fed only moist/raw (the Evo cat/small dog red bites is indeed kibbles). I can try that and see what happens - I just don't want any of them developing hepatic lipatitis (sp?) Saturday: AM - Cats: Same for Morphia and Anna, leftovers for Skit (she didn't eat very much, so I refrigerated it for the evening). Ferrets: Dry food (running late for work) PM - moist food for all cats; with dry for Morphia and Anna. Ferrets - Kibbles; Skit's leftovers for Keller Sunday: AM - Cats: Moist cat food for everyone, kibbles for Morphia and Anna PM - same for Morphia and Anna (Fed them before I read your post ), 1 quarter quail mixed with wet food and quail egg (w/shell) for Skit; Soup with 1 quarter quail and kibbles for ferrets
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Post by Heather on Sept 29, 2009 0:51:07 GMT -5
You only have to worry about feline hepatic lipidosis if your sweet little felines stop eating. They're eating the moist, raw diet that you're supplying them quite well? Even moist is better for them than kibble. Here's a exerpt out of an article on this disease. Generally speaking you don't have to worry unless your chubby cat stops eating. Hepatic lipidosis: **Hepatic lipidosis, or fatty liver, is a common syndrome characterized by excess fat accumulation in the liver of cats. It can occur in cats of any age or breed and may affect more females than males. Hepatic lipidosis classically occurs after a period of anorexia (loss of appetite) of at least 2 weeks duration. When an additional disease state is found to be the cause of the anorexia, the hepatic lipidosis is defined as "secondary." The term "primary" or "idiopathic" hepatic lipidosis is used when an additional disease state cannot be identified. This is the case in approximately 50 per cent of cats diagnosed with the disorder. Obesity before the period of anorexia increases the chances of a cat developing clinical hepatic lipidosis. The decrease in appetite causing secondary hepatic lipidosis can occur for a variety of reasons. The more common of the predisposing disease states are diabetes mellitus, pancreatitis (inflammation of the pancreas), cancer, and other liver diseases. Behavioral or stress-related causes of anorexia are also common; they include the owners being away on vacation, family members leaving or new people or pets being introduced into the household, boarding, and dietary changes. Unfortunately, once this disease develops, cats feel ill and may not begin to eat again even if the, initial cause of their loss of appetite has been eliminated. Without aggressive medical intervention, this vicious circle can, lead to death in over 90 per cent of the cats.
Cats are unique in their tendency to develop this disorder. Excessive amounts of fat are broken down from the cat's peripheral fat storage tissue during fasting. This fat is then transported to the liver. The liver should then process this fat and export it to the rest of the body in a new form. In cats that develop hepatic lipidosis this process is impaired and the rate of fat export from the liver is much slower than the rate of fat intake, resulting in liver fat accumulation. Damage to the liver is caused by swelling of liver cells filled with fatty deposits as well as additional processes.** If you want to continue to feed kibbles that's ok. I understand if you're not comfortable going entirely, moist or raw. You and your little ones are doing very well and could probably start toward weaning off kibbles if you wished. Talk at you later ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Oct 1, 2009 0:38:22 GMT -5
Well, ok, maybe I'm being a bit paranoid about the H.L. - I guess that since Skit got fat SO quickly, I started getting worried about it. Also, I need to start getting up with Skye - or leaving him notes in the morning - because at least 2x this week I've woken up to find kibble in all 3 of the cats' bowls This is especially upsetting because we do currently have moist food for him to feed them if he doesn't have the time to cut up any meat (which, I admit, does happen to both of us some mornings or on especially busy days) Monday: AM - Kibble for kitties, scolding for Skye. leftovers from Skit's Sunday PM meal for Keller and kibbles for Ushba and Llullu. PM - Final quail needed to be DONE - cut it up and mixed it with quail egg and moist food, split between all 3 cats for the evening. Ferrets: Separated Keller from others to make sure he was pooping (I'm wondering if I've been giving him too much bone; can that cause constipation?), gave him some quail and a mouse. All ferts got soup with pumpkin and quail (were separated after they'd gotten soup), leftover soup and 1 mouse placed with Ushba and Llullu. Tuesday: AM - None of the cats ate the Monday PM meal, and it looked disgusting, so I threw it out and gave them some moist food to get something in their tummies. All ferrets pooped just fine, apparently (from the condition of the puppy pads, at least ). Keller ate his mouse and meat, Usbha and Llullu did not eat their mouse OR finish off the soup (but that may have been because they pushed the puppy pad over it ) Gave Keller the mouse. He was happy PM - Kibble and moist food for Morphia and Anna; 1 oz rabbit meat (no bones) for Skit (although Keller did get some, I'm pretty sure that Skit got at least 3/4 of what I gave her). Soup and kibbles for ferrets. Wednesday: AM - Kibbles for all cats (grr) and ferrets (my fault - was trying to clean before the AC guy got here) Noonish - moist cat food for cats; late afternoon - some rabbit as a snack for Skit and Keller (the leg bone and some rib meat) PM - moist food for cats, mice and soup w/pumpkin for ferrets
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Post by Heather on Oct 1, 2009 1:04:37 GMT -5
You're getting there. What are your goals? Where do you want to take your feeding journey? You're almost getting to the point where you could probably start removing the kibble and using only raw and moist. The easiest way to get rid of the kibble and not use it, is to get rid of it. If it's not there you can't use it Try and use the moist where you would normally use the kibbles. Even moist is better than kibbles. Each transition is a matter of degrees. Moist is better than kibble, ground raw either homeade or commercial is better than moist, whole meats is better than ground (if done correctly) and prey being of course the ultimate. Feeding anywhere in between is good Yes, too much bone is constipating. Silly little Keller...he will eat just about everyone's dinner ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Oct 3, 2009 0:18:17 GMT -5
Well, I gave Morphia and Anna the last of the cat kibble this evening, so it's done (now to make sure and buy plenty of moist food before Skye goes out and gets more kibble ). Ultimately, I would like them all eating whole meats supplemented by prey (how many mice/chicks/baby rabbits would I go through in a month if that's all my 6 ate?!?!?!) and soup for the ferrets (the cats too, if they want). I just want to make sure that I have the right combination of muscle/organ/bone, and would prefer (if possible) to know that the meat I'm using didn't come from mistreated animals. How impossible is that? AM - Moist food for all Morphia and Anna, rabbit for Skit (some boneless, some bone-in - spine), kibble for ferrets (trying to get rid of theirs now). Also, saw a cat wandering around the backyard. It took off when I came out, but came back and ate the bit of rabbit meat I'd left for it. PM - Kibble for Morphia and Anna, leg of rabbit for Skit (it weighed about 5 ounces with the bone, and Keller ate some as well, so I'm estimating that she got between 1 and 2 ounces) Kibble for ferrets, with soup and mice
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Post by Heather on Oct 3, 2009 11:10:47 GMT -5
I only supplement with prey, it takes about 1 to 2 mice for a female and 2 or 3 mice for a male ferret as a meal. I supplement prey for my guys but at one shot I go through 20 to 40 mice a feeding (17 ferrets of varying weights and ages) depending on size and age of mice. I wouldn't even want to think how many pinkies that would be . A lot of your amounts will depend on the age and size of your prey. My groups are quite content to rip at an adult rat, I've used 2 in a day. One for each play group. The thing is they also have access to other meats too. I've not been able to get access to any baby bunnies in ages but again as a supplement meal they went through 2 lbs of cut up rabbit meat without any problems. Amounts are very subjective, depending on the size, health and age of your ferrets and your prey. I've never fed chicks, can't seem to find a supplier so I can't even guess there. This would be a good question to put to the forum and get some input from there. There are those on board that feed only prey and they might be able to give you a better idea as to the amounts that would be required to feed just prey animals. If you're looking for non-manufactured meats....your best bet would be a kosher butcher wouldn't it . The faiths that use kosher butchers require their animals to be raised and killed in a certain manner. You could also try some old style farmers who free range their cattle and animals. I won't say organic because they can raise their animals just like the large farms but just not use blanket antibiotics and such. ciao
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Post by faunafreak on Oct 5, 2009 20:31:39 GMT -5
I've been wondering that about organics - especially since I listened to an NPR interview with an undercover animal abuse investigator who described some of the practices he witnessed at an egg plant. That's a good idea about the kosher meats, though it would limit some of the meats I get (I don't know if rabbit is kosher - it'd probably be pretty easy to find out, though) Saturday - AM: rabbit for Skit and Keller, moist cat food for Anna and Morphia, kibble for Ushba and Llullu (they're still being really picky - I may have to go back to feeding them soup when I can watch and make sure THEY'RE eating the meat in it, and not just Keller) PM: Same for everyone, with the addition of soup and mice for the ferrets Sunday: Busy day. AM - Moist cat food for all cats, and kibble for the ferrets PM - Was out of canned cat food and the store I normally shop at was closed. Picked up Publix brand canned cat food - Morphia (and Skit, though she wasn't supposed to get any) LOVED it; Anna HATED it (after sniffing at it, "covering" it, and checking the other dishes, she started trying to find bits of kibble behind the water fountain, in the ferret room . . . anywhere a stray kernel might have been. After a few hours of her ABSOLUTELY refusing to eat the canned food, I gave her some ferret kibble, which she ate). Skit - 1.5 oz rabbit and 1 oz beef liver (and some stolen wet food from Anna's bowl), Keller - rabbit and beef liver (though he kept stashing the liver when I wasn't paying attention), Ushba and Llullu - soup with some meat and kibble grounds from their bowl. Monday: AM - Woke up to find kibbles in bowl Gave wet food on top of that. I need to cut up the duck and everything else before it spoils, so the ferrets got kibbles. PM - Wet cat food; will be cutting up more meat tonight. Soup with meat and mice for ferrets - will watch them tonight.
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Post by Heather on Oct 6, 2009 0:13:06 GMT -5
** Kosher For meat to be kosher it must come from animals who chew their cud and have split hooves. These include cows, goats, lamb, venison, and would you believe buffalo? Domestically raised fowl such as chickens, geese, ducks, turkeys, and quail are also kosher. These animals must be slaughtered according to Jewish Law in a manner that inflicts the least amount of suffering and results in instant death, i.e. severing the jugular vein with one stroke of a razor sharp knife which has no nicks or flaws. (Rabbis in ancient times must have been the first animal rights group. In Jewish Law, killing animals for sport is regarded as cruelty to animals.) The hindquarters of large animals are only considered kosher after the sciatic nerve has been removed, a process so costly and time-consuming that it makes the most tender steaks unavailable. Packing houses sell these parts to the general market. Pig, camel, horse and rabbit are non-kosher animals and no part may be eaten in any form.** Rabbits aren't kosher....you were right I have heard of some butchers in the city who sell animals prepared in a Kosher manner though. I don't know if that means only Kosher meats or if they mean the humane way of killing the animals they sell. You would have to inquire about that. Sounds to me that the kibbles aren't a well recieved meal either. Looks like your guys are in the middle of the switch. Keep at it, slowly moving toward no kibbles and using the moist instead. Depending on where you want to take this, then moving the moist toward raw. Keep me posted, as to who's getting what and how it's going over. Trust Keller to decide he wants dried liver treats and is going to make it himself...brat ciao
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