joan
Gnawing on bones
Natural Ferret Breeder
Posts: 57
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Post by joan on Jan 23, 2011 13:35:00 GMT -5
I currently have 3 intact hobs here...and I agree with all the above descriptions of entire hobs in rut. I do recommend that my buyers allow their kit to go through an entire breeding season before being spayed/neutered, but very few hob owners can stand the odor after the first few weeks. So far only two owners have endured it...both wanted to keep the hobs whole for their lifetime to increase their chances for a long, healthy life and I agreed as both were knowledgeable, responsible owners.
I don't agree that all neutered ferrets will eventually become adrenal, as so far the ones I've owned or sold which were necropsied after their death at 7-9 years old all have had normal adrenal glands. Most were neutered before their first breeding season, so should have become adrenal by the time they were 6-7 if they had the genetics to do so.
There's quite a bit of evidence that it is genetic in origin. The age at neutering and the environment are the two factors which appear to be responsible for the age at which those carrying the genetic factors will develop it. It does seem that the vast majority of US bred ferrets (both commercially and privately bred) have the genetics to develop it, due to their background of fancy colors.
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Post by Heather on Jan 23, 2011 17:15:04 GMT -5
My vet and I were discussing just this type of issue. I had never had problems with adrenal until I started dealing with Marshals ferrets. All my previous ferrets that came into rescue were PV's I'm not saying they don't come down with adrenal. Loki (PV) had adrenal at 4 (surgery was done by the previous rescue). He eventually passed on because of renal failure (possibly adrenal issues). There is no proof that the marshals are more prone to adrenal than the other farm ferrets but that being said every marshals that I've had turned in except for Aremis (lymphosarcoma), Athos (misadventure) and Calypso (insulinoma) have passed on from adrenal complications. My vet and I discussed the possibility of a genetic link as well as specific ferret care (early spay/neuter, and light links). It just appeared too strong as all the ferret farms are guilty of the whole way too early spay/neuter and descenting (disgusting practice  ) ciao |
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Post by Jackie on Jan 23, 2011 17:21:13 GMT -5
Most likely it's a combination of spay/neutering, especially too young, genetics, lighting conditions and diet. The issue is multifaceted and there is likely no single cause for the disease. It would be very difficult to eliminate all of the other variables to see how a single variable (early spay/neuter for example) affect a ferret.
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Post by Polecatty on Jan 25, 2011 11:45:43 GMT -5
I have an intact hob and he is suprisingly civil. He's very soft with other ferrets and can socialise with both jills and neutered hobs whilst in rut. Other intact hobs aren't tolerated whilst he's in rut but he's fine with them during the winter. He is a greasy fellow but doesn't bath in urine and restricts marking to a few favourite objects. His biggest behavioural difference is his drive to maintain a territory. He has a whole block of the neighbourhood staked out and likes to go for a walk to patrol this.  Last year he wanted to patrol every day whilst in rut but now that he has a jill [who has been given Suprelorin] he is less driven and prefers to stay close to home. In winter he is like any other ferret. No extra smell, no interest in the lady weasels, no marking. I won't be having any more ferrets surgically altered. |
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Post by Heather on Jan 25, 2011 13:35:58 GMT -5
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Post by sherrylynne on Jan 25, 2011 14:04:19 GMT -5
How on earth did you keep a straight face with that one |
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Post by Heather on Jan 25, 2011 21:20:37 GMT -5
With great difficulty I did finally tell her though....I had to . What was worse was the lady who had the booth next to me and knew Odin (now and in his odoriferous hob days ) She was trying not to kill herself laughing while talking to a customer of her own (having listened to this lady's heated defense of descenting). ciao |
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Post by Polecatty on Jan 26, 2011 22:49:14 GMT -5
Lol, too funny! So hard to keep a straight face when things like that happen. Similar to the time I had some of my guys out and they were being loved on by a stranger. Said stanger was raving on and on about how sweet/lovely/friendly they were and how they were nothing like those horrible savage hunting ferrets that some people keep. I told her she was holding horrible savage hunting ferrets and her expression was priceless. Taking him for his walk really curbs that frantic intact-hob energy.  He likes to go for his walk, re-mark all his check points and then does his very best to tow me home on the last leg of the journey. In fact I am relatively certain that if he one day did escape he would go for his walk and come back home as per usual- he hates to deviate from his usual trail and I can not force him to go beyond what he considers 'his'. I've tried and it resulted in a tantrum. I kind of miss the frequent walks but Athena [the jill] is absolutely not interested and Roland now only wants to check up on his territory once a week instead of once a day. He was so ripped when he was running the block every day, lol. Your Odin sounds lovely.  |
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joan
Gnawing on bones
Natural Ferret Breeder
Posts: 57
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Post by joan on Jan 27, 2011 12:27:45 GMT -5
What I've seen with all my hobs (both ferrets and hybrids) is that their first breeding season is the worst re odor, marking, wanting to annihilate the other hobs, their single minded focus on the jills whether or not they're in heat, wanting to escape to check their territory, etc. Their behavior (and odor) has moderated slightly each year after that and, by the time they're 4-5, it's a lot easier to endure them as house pets during this trying period. I've got the same report from both Raku's and Roddy's owners.
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Post by Heather on Jan 27, 2011 12:52:24 GMT -5
Do you suppose it's just because you're getting used to them I really do hope your statement is indeed fact The problem is going to be to survive those first few years where they're being obnoxious teenagers It would make sense though, Odin was still the escape frame of mind, he was at least sociable. He was about 4 or 5 when he came to live with me. Perhaps, this idea of taking the hob out to mark territory might work some of the "pissies" out of him Odin did play with the rest of the brats (he had problems with Porthos, but he didn't always start it...Porthos was as much to blame...Porthos was a PV alter) The one that amazed me was that Odin and Attila didn't get into it. They just agreed that they would get along. Attila ruled, but allowed Odin when he was in season "privileges". Truthfully, I was glad that they had a peace treaty. Attila outweighed Odin by almost 2 lbs but Odin was so strong and muscular (Odin was kibble fed at the time, might have stood to reason why he smelled even worse, but with that musculature even on a poor diet....wow) that it would have been a horrible fight. Those two never went toe to toe. You would even find them snuggled up together. Sometimes if Odin was too persistent in his attempts at Lady "B", Attila would just stand there in the hallway between them. Nothing was ever done, or said as far as I could tell but Odin would just saunter off in the opposite direction humming his little hob tunes (I miss that) ciao |
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joan
Gnawing on bones
Natural Ferret Breeder
Posts: 57
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Post by joan on Jan 27, 2011 13:23:07 GMT -5
No, Heather, I don't think you ever really get used to it. <G> It's very easy to see the differences as they get older, since my hobs are different ages. My current hobs are almost 5, 3, and 2. My previous ones were neutered and placed in pet homes when I was through with them for breeding.
The one who's almost 3 has always been the most aggressive one and began fighting with his older brother when he was 5 months old...at the time, he was considerably bigger and heavier than Shadow. He's also the stinkiest one and the most determined to get at the jills. I've only used him to take jills out of heat when I didn't want a litter, as I don't particularly care for his large size and long back. Shadow, the oldest one, has always been the most easy going one from a very early age, will swear at the other hobs when he's out of his cage but has never started a fight.
Basil, the youngest, has only been in rut for a couple weeks and so far all I've observed is his growing antipathy to the other two hobs, as well as his growing interest the last few days in the two jills he doesn't share a cage with. Maya came in heat last Sunday, so no surprise there. He shares a cage with his sister and still plays nicely with her...she is showing no signs of even being close to coming in heat
The other thing I'd like to bring up is that I've only seen one time when a hob become aggressive with people when he came in rut...other than that one (who was neutered a few days later and returned to his previous excellent temperament a week or so after that). I've never seen any change in attitude or behavior with people when they came in rut. There is definitely a change in behavior toward the jills and other hobs, and that's normal.
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Post by Heather on Jan 27, 2011 13:31:20 GMT -5
Ha, don't get nasty at your people or you'll wake up a jib I've never heard of a hob getting nasty with his people, but then we don't often see many intact ferrets around here, so I'm certainly no expert on that statement  . Odin loved his people. He would often reach up with his front paws on your leg and beg for a snuggle (though I"m not entirely sure he wasn't claiming us as part of his harem ) Your 3 yr old a v-hob? ciao |
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joan
Gnawing on bones
Natural Ferret Breeder
Posts: 57
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Post by joan on Jan 27, 2011 14:13:55 GMT -5
Nope, Ranger's entire...just in case I ever do want a litter by him. Marie told me years ago how to use an entire hob to take a jill out of heat safely...you can call it coitus interruptus. <G> I didn't want to run the risk of spoiling the ones I did want to use for breeding, so it seemed easier to do that with one I didn't particularly want kits by.
Edited to add that I mentioned the hob which became aggressive toward people when he came in rut because several of my hob kit buyers over the years have told me that they had been told by other breeders that one of the reasons for neutering a hob prior to breeding season was so that he wouldn't become aggressive toward people. I wanted to make it clear that this should not be considered normal behavior nor should such a hob be used for breeding.
I'm familiar with this behavior in one particular line of Basenjis many years ago, ie, both dogs and bitches became extremely aggressive when they matured sexually and would even attack their owners for no reason. If they were altered before they came in heat/rut the first time, they were fine. Apparently this type of genetic behavior pattern is hormonally triggered and also exists in some ferrets.
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Post by acodlin on Jan 27, 2011 17:28:11 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, everyone says they smell bad, but what do they smell like? Just pee and musk? and love songs? is it like dooking? I've never seen an intact ferret before, we plan on in a couple of years purchasing a ferret from a breeder..looking at scarlet happy dookers in columbus, GFX has some beautiful ferrets but they are quite a distance for us..I'd just like to have one that I know their backround and that they are healthy.
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joan
Gnawing on bones
Natural Ferret Breeder
Posts: 57
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Post by joan on Jan 27, 2011 19:01:23 GMT -5
It's a musky odor and the odor clings to everything the hob touches. I like it, but then I like skunk odor, too, so long as it's not too close. <G>
Acodlin, there's no way to be sure that you'll get a healthy ferret from a private breeder any more than from the commercial breeders. I discussed this on another thread...look at the written guarantee that the breeder offers re health, what it covers and for how long. Then bear in mind that most health problems won't appear until the ferret is 3-4 years old.
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