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Post by katt on Dec 16, 2010 4:45:40 GMT -5
So I kind of posted this in my thread in General Chat, but I didn't get any replies. I think it deserves it's own thread anyways. Anyhow, I am starting to wonder if Koda truly does have IBD. What are the chances of me ending up with 2 ferrets with IBD who show the same exact symptoms? At first I thought Kenai was just adjusting to the new diet, but instead of getting better his poops have been getting worse. Now he is pooping EXACTLY like Koda was when he was really sick. Almost the exact same color, same size and consistency, small, "goopy-poopy," mucousy, dark, red-brown poops! I mean, it just doesn't seem very likely that I would magically end up with 2 ferrets from totally different lines (Koda is an RC ferret 1 year old, Kenai is Marshalls, just a few months old) with the same exact issue. I am really wondering if it is perhaps something we missed, something that could be contagious? I mean Koda was checked for parasites and bacteria...twice. They are both otherwise totally healthy. Any ideas here? I am really confused... I am leaving Sat, so not much I can do at the moment. I will keep their diet strictly varied while I am gone so they are not getting the same food more than a few days in a row at once. My roommate understands that I will date the packages of food and she MUST feed them in the proper order. When I get back, Kenai needs to go to the vet anyways for his shots and initial exam. In the meanwhile, I want to get this figured out! Also, I know I should not be, but I feel a little anxious and hesitant to tell my vet. To my knowledge, I am her only experience with raw feeding ferrets -s he has seen others who feed raw to dogs and cats I believe though, and knows OF feeding raw to ferrets. She always hints that maybe I should supplement with kibble or just feed kibble. I really wanted to make a great impression with the raw diets, and now they are both doing not so well with something diet or GI tract related! It is a bit frustrating and I feel makes a bad impression for her to see of raw fed ferrets...
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Post by Jackie on Dec 16, 2010 5:53:11 GMT -5
I'm sorry you're having so many problems with your boys! Just some things that popped into my head... * Bad meat? Seems like a long shot since it's been going on so long. * Ulcer? * ECE * Salmonella * Proliferative Colitis? Uncomplicated ECE in a young, healthy ferret generally lasts 7-10 days, but in about 20% of cases, there is an extended illness due to an overaggressive immune response, which may lead to a chronic wasting syndrome for some time afterward. Ferrets who have had the disease remain carriers for some time afterward -- nobody's quite sure how long, but the best estimate is now six months, maybe longer. It's currently believed that ferrets who have had ECE can't get it again, but the irritated gut, especially in ferrets with the prolonged illness, is very sensitive to stress or upset, so "cured" ferrets may look like they've come down with it again when they haven't. Proliferative colitis, also called proliferative bowel disease, is caused by bacteria that do not appear to be contagious to other kinds of pets. This organism that causes this disese is is Lawsonia intracellularis, which causes severe diarrhea in growing pigs. In both pigs and ferrets with this infection, the lining of the large intestine or the last part of the small intestine becomes very thick, interfering with absorption of nutrients and water. There are reports that ferrets can be infected with Salmonella. but I know of no documented cases where they have been shown to act as carriers. From reports I am aware of, ferrets seem quite sensitive to Salmonella showing gastrointestinal symptoms like those of humans. Nevertheless, it is probable that a low percentage of any susceptible animals will become carriers following an overt infection. Source: www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=11+2071&aid=582 www.gopetsamerica.com/small-animals/ferret/proliferative_colitis.aspxwww.ferretcentral.org/faq/med/green.html#daviswww.salmonella.org/faq.html#q21(None of the information contained in this post came from myself, and it could very well be inaccurate. I apologize ahead of time if any info is wrong). Sorry I can't be more helpful. Hopefully the vet can run some tests and find out what's wrong. Has Koda had a stool sample recently? I don't really think Koda or Kenai would be doing ANY better on kibble. The rough kibble would just irritate their stomach lining, and if there was a bacteria overload, the sugar would just fuel that fire. The raw food is 100% better than kibble would be. Don't feel bad They would be in a much worse situation if they were on kibble. Good luck!
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Post by mustelidmusk on Dec 16, 2010 10:12:49 GMT -5
When you get back, you should get fecals done. Stress diarrhea is common, IBD is common, clostridium is common, giardia is common, high bacterial count is common (especially during times of stess) Remember, my brats got opportunistic infections that flared and quiesced for about 6 months when Shaman came along. It took quite a while for the tribe to settle down. Other than diarrhea, do either of your boys show any other symptoms? I know Koda is picky about food other than mice. How are their noses? warmish and dry? Any lethargy? any other symptoms??? Whatever is going on, you'll probably need to see your vet for fecals and possibly blood tests. I have been known to give a big dose of vaseline to look for improvement. vaseline wipes out bacteria in the gut. If improvement is apparent after a dose or two of vaeline, you may very well be dealing with high bacterial count. Excessive mucus in stool general comes from the bowel rather than the stomach. Bacteria imbablances in the bowel are common. Also remember that tap water contains chlorine, which kills bacteria - good and bad. If your tap water has high amounts of chlorine, your boys could be prone to bateria imbalances. Fert digestive systems are very fragile, and it takes very little to whack them out. This is why we're all "poop watchers" Don't panic you will get this figured out. In the mean time, I know how frustrating this is. -jennifer
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Post by Heather on Dec 16, 2010 18:26:40 GMT -5
What shots are you going to get?? Not until your ferret has a clean bill of health. No ferret, no animal should get vaccines while they are considered ill (even if you're not a anti-vaccine nut like myself ) I'm sorry that you're having problems with both boys but to be honest with you, Jennifer's right. You've probably blown the balance off and it's going to take a while before both boys get it down correctly. I know that whenever I bring in newbies, inevitably I get stool problems. It happens so often and only with certain individuals that other than noting that it happens I don't pay it much mind. If it continues for months or if it's dark and tarry for a couple of days in a row then I start watching them more closely. I then start to look for poor eating habits, lethargy, teeth grinding, straining in the litter box...the usual stuff. I realize that it's very frustrating but you will work it out. You'll see ciao
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Post by rarnold18 on Dec 16, 2010 23:13:07 GMT -5
Wow! Jen! I didn't even think about chlorine in the tap water and how it effects the good and bad bacteria in their digestive systems! Here in FL you can smell the chlorine, I've gotten used to it but it's a valid point to be brought up so THANKYOU!!! I've had a lightbulb moment after reading your comment and need to re-think a filtering system for my home because none of us here need the good bacteria wiped out, especially with DH immuno suppressed! I can definitely see how chlorinated water could wipe out the good stuff and let the nasties take over...until I can get a system that will remove chlorine would you reccomend something like greek yogurt for the good bacteria? if the fuzz can't eat that what would I give them...? I could also switch to bottled too I guess.... Does a britta water filter remove chlorine? I have one somewhere around here....
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Post by sherrylynne on Dec 17, 2010 0:05:46 GMT -5
At least for the fuzz, if you leave the water sitting out for about 24 hours in an open container, the chlorine will dissipate.
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Post by rarnold18 on Dec 17, 2010 0:21:54 GMT -5
cool beans! I'll have to figure out a way to "air" out the water with out the cat's trying to drink it and knocking it over...causing a huge flood!
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Post by katt on Dec 17, 2010 0:51:04 GMT -5
What shots are you going to get?? Not until your ferret has a clean bill of health. No ferret, no animal should get vaccines while they are considered ill (even if you're not a anti-vaccine nut like myself ) I'm sorry that you're having problems with both boys but to be honest with you, Jennifer's right. You've probably blown the balance off and it's going to take a while before both boys get it down correctly. I know that whenever I bring in newbies, inevitably I get stool problems. It happens so often and only with certain individuals that other than noting that it happens I don't pay it much mind. If it continues for months or if it's dark and tarry for a couple of days in a row then I start watching them more closely. I then start to look for poor eating habits, lethargy, teeth grinding, straining in the litter box...the usual stuff. I realize that it's very frustrating but you will work it out. You'll see ciao Oh man! I am glad that you mentioned that - that didn't even occur to me and I should know better! NO Vaccines until the poops calm down! I guess I forget it has only been a month, Kenai just feels so much a part of the family already. I guess I kind of forgot too that they really haven't been in the same cage for too long at all...only a few weeks. And maybe a week with access to the whole cage. I suppose it could be stress. And then with me leaving for 2 weeks it will probably extend that. Blah! Well, I really really really hope it IS just stress and that both bellies calm down quickly after I get back!
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Post by mustelidmusk on Dec 17, 2010 9:49:22 GMT -5
Yes, chlorine does evaporate if you let it sit out over night. You should have a broad bowl that exposes a large surface for evaporation (a skinny-necked bottle will not work). Let it it for 24 hours. (I had a fish tank as a kid ) Some filters do remove chlorine, but you need to learn which ones do this. Any/all vets I've gone to will not vaccinate an animal that's having health issues. Although, not all vets are good, so yes, you need to be on top of things when bringing your animals to the vet. Also, remember that Koda went through and extended period of bad poops and meds...and through rotating foods and adding a few supplements, you were able to get his poops looking pretty good. You'll be able to get things settled again. You discover what works best for your boys. Things that now seem impossible to deal with will become fairly routine. In the mean time, try to relax and enjoy the holiday. Remember that IBD is common in ferrets, and stress poops/bacterial over-growths are to be EXPECTED (even without IBD) when introducing a new ferret. Moreover, it can take months for ferrets to sort things out. -jennifer
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Post by katt on Dec 17, 2010 14:37:30 GMT -5
At what point should I start to worry if Kenai's poops do not stabilize?
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Post by mustelidmusk on Dec 17, 2010 17:51:16 GMT -5
What typically happens with stress poops (at least in my experience) is the the immune system get a litle funked out and allows bacterial/parasitic/viral overgrowth. Net result = yucky poops.
If the poops are bad but your ferts are young, eating, playing and not dehydrating, you can try to a few naturopathic and/or homeopathic treatments to see if that helps. If the poops are still rotten after a couple of days with a couple of different treatments, a trip to the vet for fecals and possibly blood work is recommended.
Since Kenai is new, and both Kenai and Koda have had this poop attack for a while, I would make a vet appointment when you get back. I know you're kind of flipped out about your vet blaming everything on raw diet. It sucks that most traditional vets will blame raw for everything. And it doubly sucks if your vet is not super experienced with ferrets since the ferret GI and endocrine systems are serious weak points in these animals.
If you want to try a mild homeopathic remedy, look under the homeopathic poop protocol. Don't worry about all the warnings....I put them there because I don't want people to use this instead of a trip to the vet - especially when their ferrets are older or are really sick/dehydrated/lethargic, etc. You don't NEED to use the colloidal silver. A big dose of vaseline (laxatone) alone will help clean out bacteria, both bad and good, although it won't be as effective as with the colloidal. You can try this before you leave if you have a day thereafter to review the results. It certainly will not hurt or make anything worse. I do not recommend trying this when you et back before going to the vet. The reason for this is you want all the "bugs" so show up inthe fecals so your vet can prescribe the most appropriate meds.
-jennifer
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