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Post by mrsringo on Nov 26, 2010 1:41:10 GMT -5
Hi! I just wanted to hear your opinions.. obviously I know that most of you will discuss the holistic side of feedings, but I wanted to hear you out and hope that you will respectively hear me out. I currently do not own a Ferret of my own , but plan to sometime in the future when my husband and I are financially secure enough to own one and properly care for him/her, and have the space necessary to provide an adequate home for our baby! Anyway, I have two dogs! (and just a bit of history, I have worked at Small Animal Veterinary Hospital for 7 years and have recently become a Homemaker or Stay at home Mommy to my human daughter. ) Both of my dogs are very healthy, with their own little quirks on the side which makes a Prescription Diet essential for them. One of my dogs (Joon- Toy Fox Terrier- female- 1.5 years old) has white fur (with some brown) meaning she is more susceptible to skin allergies/issues. So, she is fed Royal Canin Small Breed Skin & Stone dry dog food, and I attempted to switch her off of it and her skin almost immediately started back with the itchiness and scabs/redness. (The "stone" part is just another preventative attribute to the food, she doesn't have a problem with stones. It's just that she's a small dog and they are known to get stones, so why not help prevent them?). My male dog (Goose- Chihuahua Mix- male- 4 years old) has urinary issues (crystals in his urine which could lead to stones if left untreated), and is on Royal Canin Urinary S.O. dry dog food to help prevent this from happening (and it does work!). Both of my dogs also receive Fish Oil Supplements once daily for their many, many benefits- Joon needs them for her skin issues, also. My question is, does anyone have dogs that have had issues such as these and switched to a raw diet and found them healed? I'm just curious.. I know I will be feeding my future Ferret a raw/prey diet because even my Exotic Vet I have contacted & read up on all of their Ferret info suggests it. Anyway, that's all. Haha! Sorry for the long-winded pre-question and all! And thank you!
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Post by bluemoose on Nov 26, 2010 1:59:47 GMT -5
Do you know what Joon is allergic too? Many dogs are allergic to corn which most lower quality kibbles have. Chicken is a common allergy as well. If you know what she's allergic too, you can most likely keep that out of the raw diet pretty easily. Even some dogs that are allergic to a meat protein in kibble won't be allergic to that meat in it's raw form. Like kibble with chicken might set off the allergy while raw chicken doesn't.
I'm not sure about the crystals and stones as neither of my dogs has had these issues but I have heard of crystals in the urine being reduced with a raw diet.
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Post by rarnold18 on Nov 26, 2010 5:16:43 GMT -5
Yes Ma'am, I do have some experience with dogs with allergies, searching for the "right" kibble and then finding the cure in feeding a BARF diet...Both my dogs and my mother in laws dogs have severe allergies...I'll start with my dogs. Chaos and Fagan are 8 year old male Pitbulls, brothers from the same litter. Both Chaos and Fagan were having really bad flakey skin and when it got really bad it would bleed and ooze, scab up and get itchy and of course the boys would itch it and it would bleed again. We were giving them benadryl and fish oil to try to combat the itchy and dry flakey cycle and to help with brittle nails. (one of my boys split a nail almost every few weeks, the nail would bleed, and fall off making it impossible to keep dry and clean so a round of anitbiotics were necessary when this happened our vet said fish oil would help make the nail stonger) finally got frustrated and went to the vets, the vet ordered an allergy panel done and my boys are allergic to just about everything! Fleas, oak, pine, maple, grass, corn, wheat, whey, oats, and a few other things that I can't think of at this ungodly hour... (the pannel was super expensive, about $500 per dog with the vet visit) after recieveing hte results we disscussed our options, switching kibble (at the time they were eating beniful) and some type of immune boosting shot that helped condition their bodies to that particular allergen so that a resistance would build up and in theory reduce the allergic reaction to that allergen. So we started the shots right away and switched foods. After 6 weeks no real improvement so switched again and so on and so forth...after almost 9 months of food switching and shots my mother in law convinced me to switch to a BARF diet like she had about 6-9 months before. After talking to her in depth and reading the research that she had done, we did switch and took it slow, I think we ended up adding a new protien source every two weeks. The first month was rough because their bodies were going through doggie kibble detox and as their body was working the toxins out they had a few hot spots (which plain yellow listerine works wonderful for treating them, not the minty ones the plain yellowish gold only! the mint will sting and make puppers very unhappy). At about the 6-8 week mark I realized that we had reduced their benadryl intake down to nothing, they weren't itching and thier skin was finally healing and growing fur back (it had gotten so bad that poor Fagan didn't have any fur on his rump, half way up his back and down his tail). I think we were about 6 months into the switch and it was time for teeth cleanings ($$$) so off we went to the vets. We get there check in and get escorted to the scale and then to the exam room. The vet comes in we chat, I tell him that we switched foods again and he commented that the boys looked good and asked what food did we find that is working for them. When I told him we went raw he looked horrified and started lecturing me about germs, contamination and other lovlies. We had a bit of an argument and he did the quick go over Chaos and then opened his mouth to look in. The vet looked at me and said they don't need their cleanings done yet you must of gotten the appointments confused. So he looks in the files and they were due,it had been about a year since their last one...then he looks at Fagans teeth...no yucky nastiness there either...at this point he's convinced that we had the dogs teeth cleaned at another vets office and is lying about it to make feeding raw look good. We argue a bit more he lets me know that I am putting both my family and the dogs in danger for feeding them a BARF diet and I leave, never to return again... I'm sorry but you don't ahve to agree with my decisions but there is no reason to belittle me and accuse me of being a bad mother and pet owner because of the choice I made in raw feeding. I was spending about $300 a month in allergy shots, allergy meds, prednisone and rymadil. Now I spend about $100 a month in meat for my 3 dogs and 9 ferrets (I buy in bulk 40 pound cases) Fagan has not had a split nail in almost 2 years. Neither dog has had to have their teeth cleaned, nor are they showing any sign of flaky, crusty, dry, oozy, scabby fur...their coats are soft and shiney. Now if we are late treating the yard or the dogs for fleas and we get one in the house...ugh...I have some miserable dogs just one flea bite is all it takes for them to have a reaction and get red itchy skin...now it takes a couple days for their skin to heal instead of a couple weeks. Chaos no longer takes rymadil for his hips anymore either, once we got them eating a balanced diet of rmb's and 4 or 5 protien sources I added in Beef Treachea which is a really great source for glucosimime and chondroiten (yes I am no good at spelling) he's no longer sensitive when the weather changes, no longer limps, and can run and play without pain (well unless he gets caught by one of the other dogs and they tackle eachother ) and neither of them are showing any signs of arthritis and they both just turned 8 on September 29th.
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Post by rarnold18 on Nov 26, 2010 5:27:48 GMT -5
hooray for long and drawn out posts!
Now my mother in law (mil) switched her dogs to raw after all the pet food recalls a few years back, she didn't do it just for allergies, she did it to make sure that she new exactly what was going into her dogs bodies because apparently at that time the kibble makers didn't know what was going into their kibbles! My mil's Irish Wolfhound is the most allergic dog I know, when they did the blood pannel it was easiest to say that he was allergic to the planet earth and 90% of what is on the planet. He too was getting the allergy shots and because of his size, 205 lbs, she was feeding him 15 benadryl a day! the sores and hotspots on that dogs body were huge and nothing was helping with these allergies. Mil fed her dogs Evo, Innova, Acana and a few others and nothing helped so she continued with teh shots and pills...then the recalls and she started researching exactly what was in kibble and was horrified, don't blamer her though, because some of the stuff they use are known carcinogens (cancer causing) and when you have a giant breed dog that has an expected lifespan of 10-12 years if they're lucky and a breed that is prone to osteoscarcoma (sp?) you don;t want to feed them something that can cause cancer! So she switched her crew over which at the time consisted of Max the IW, Chi-Chi a geriatric English Springer, and Cody a 3-ish year old Tibetian Mastiff... and once again after the switch was complete, no more benadryl, no more expensive allergy shots and no more teeth cleanings for them either. Cody's fur is so soft now that when he is brushed out the loose fur is recycled and used in the rabbit nesting boxes when they are due to give birth, the doe's have no objection to his fur lining their nests which is great.
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Post by rarnold18 on Nov 26, 2010 5:53:04 GMT -5
I only have experience with struvite crystals in my cat cleo. I have tried to switch her to raw many times, but with no luck. The last time I tried to switch her she refused to eat and I tried to tuff it out but she started loosing weight so I switched the cats to Acana Prarie. Acana Prarie is a much better food than the Royal Canin and can be found at pet speciality shops. I did consider the royal canin but after reading the reviews and knowing that grain can be an allergen I chose against it. Here is a link to the Dog Food Analysis for both the Royal Canin and the Acana Praire RC- www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1518&cat=allAcana- www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=2257&cat=3 I took a long time to find what I felt was the right food for my cats (and I know that they dog version of the Acana is good because I accedently bought a bag once and didn't notice it until the next bag I bought and noticed that the kibble were a different size! but we go through a 30 lb bag a month for the three cats) The Acana is grain free which will help with Joon's allergies (even though I don't know what they are I'm guessing it's the corn and other grains in the kibble they are eating) and the Acana also has a higher PH like the Royal canin does so it will help keep the struvite crystals away...one food for both dogs if you want to stick with kibble... now my opinion, switch your dogs to raw, cold turkey no more kibble thats it....the meat is easier on their systems to digets and puts less stress on the kidneys to flush the waste out.
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Post by rarnold18 on Nov 26, 2010 5:54:17 GMT -5
ok, I'm going to bed now, If what I've written is making no sense because right now I'm exhausted I'm sorry, I will come back tomorrow and fix any of my nonsense that I may have written!
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Post by 3kaw on Nov 26, 2010 10:58:40 GMT -5
lol well rarnold gave you lots to go with, but just adding that yes the switch will help with most health issues, but especially allergies. There is way to much stuff added to commercial foods that lead to these allergies, along with all the meds and vaccinations that we do to animals.
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 26, 2010 11:00:06 GMT -5
Only crystals I have experience with is from my one cat. He got them yearly on vet prescribed food, for years. I started a raw switch with him, but had to stop because he is allergic to any kind of fowl(severe vomiting for a few days), and we couldn't find the prebiotic that made it work for him(he was 14 years old at the time. In lieu of raw, we got him on Evo canned, and he's not had an episode since. Even with just the wet food, he was getting a LOT more moisture, which has eliminated the crystals. He's now 17, and doing well. When he finally passes, I'll start the switch again with the others.
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Post by mrsringo on Nov 26, 2010 13:20:08 GMT -5
Wow! Thanks so much for all of your responses! Bluemoose- I'm pretty sure Joon's allergies are primarily Environmental. (We took a class when I was a Vet Nurse and they showed you some small signs on how you could try to tell which type of allergy your pet had- food allergies would show more itchy/scratchies around the bum, environmental would be feet/belly from laying in the grass or walking on something she's allergic to, etc.) She gets allergic reactions mainly on her belly and in between her little tootsies. Perhaps she also has a food allergy, but from what I have observed, I think the majority is environment. We currently do not posses the funds to be able to figure out exactly what Joon is allergic to.. and the allergies aren't severe, just a here-and-there sort of thing. Rarnold18- Thank you so much for your huge response! It's hard for me to take this all in because I'm at an in between spot- I used to work for a Vet Clinic and have been told how bad BARF diets are for our pets (that dogs have been domesticated for so many years and their digestive systems have changed.. I've seen too many dogs come in that have been fed table scraps (not necessarily a BARF diet) and have gotten Pancreatitis which is an incredibly painful, life threatening disease for a pet and costs lots of $ to have them nursed back to health, and thereafter they are more prone to Diabetes. I know alllll about Allergy Injections! As a Vet Nurse, It was my job (among all my coworkers) to help our clients properly administer these injections & learn what they are, what foods to feed, treats, etc. I hate to hear about your experience with your vet.. Our hospital would not have treated you that way. I hate it when people don't listen to your point of view or try to bash you for the decisions you have made for your family. It's just like raising human children, you take everyone's advice with a smile but ultimately it is YOUR decision on how you want to raise them, what you want to feed them, etc. And I would NEVER bash any Mother (furkid Momma or human) for their decisions, unless it was physically or emotionally harming the babies of course.. (and even still I wouldn't be "bashing" but praying!) You sound like a wonderful pet Mommy, with the allergy panels and dental cleanings, which I know personally can be very very expensive. My dog Joon was spayed around 6 months old, and then a few months later developed a Recessed Vulva (too much skin around her lady parts) and I had a surgery done on her to remove that skin (it was getting infected and yucky and would have been a lifelong problem) But now we have that fixed and are working on her allergies.. hehe! I will check out the dog food comparisons, but again, it's so hard for me to consider an organic/holistic diet after working for a vet for so long! So you'll have to work with me here. I'm pretty sure that Goose's crystals were also Struvites, and his food does exactly as you say, makes him urinate more so that he doesn't let urine sit stagnant in his bladder and develop these crystals from doing so. Where do I learn about the process of switching your pet over to a BARF diet? I also asked this on the other forum (Ferret Harmony), but I would at least like to read about the process and such, because I know that I for sure would like to feed it to my Ferret. Thank you for your help! 3Kaw- I've never thought about all the extra stuff.. but I do know that a lot more research is being done on kibble than they used to do. Which is somewhat comforting. Sherrylynne- That is so scary! (your kitty not eating). I'm always afraid to adopt a cat of mine (besides the fact that I can't due to allergies ), because I know all of the worst case scenarios for cats and dogs, but cats are scary because if they don't eat for 1 day their livers start to go bad (or something..) to where they develop Liver Disease and turn yellow (Hepatic Lipadosis) and then if you want to save their lives you have to do surgery and insert feeding tubes for awhile, etc. So Scarrryyy!! Thanks for your input though! I'm definitely considering the BARF diet, but I'm still not sure for my pups. Anywho, thanks so much everyone! I will be continuing my research!
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 26, 2010 16:12:28 GMT -5
I don't know if this will help or not, but here is a VERY informative website about carnivores and raw feeding: www.rawfed.com/myths/ It's a fairly lengthy read, but well worth it! And it also addresses the myth about canines having a different digestive system from other canids
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Post by rarnold18 on Nov 26, 2010 17:32:14 GMT -5
Even if you choose not to switch your dogs to a raw diet, even switching to a grain free food will make a big difference in their coats, skin, nails and energy... As I said before Cleo and my other female Sylvia have had problems with struvite crystals resulting in blood and at one point a complete blockage...that was expensive... I couldn't get Cleo to go to a raw diet so I had to find something better for my cats to eat. One big thing for me was the food additive ethoxiquin (sp?) It's a known carcinogen that is added as a preservitive to fish products. I found after sitting in the food aisle at petsmart for three hours reading labels that even the lamb and rice or chicken formulas of most foods have fish products and most likely ethoxiquin as a preservative. Went home and looked them up on line... I ultimatly chose the Acana because the fish they use is fresh and because it's made in Canada the FDA can't ruin it! Now pet food companies can apply to the FDA for a special permit to use different types of more natural preservatives but the process is lengthy and expensive and 99% of the busniesses are in it for the profit not because they actually care When I switched my dogs, we went cold turkey, the last of the kibble was gone so I got some chicken necks and started with those and over time as jaw strength increased and no allergic reactions happened we added bigger RMB's and differenty types of protien, organs and treachea... I know that it was the best choice for us and our furbabies. Feeding raw isn't for everyone and what is fed is a personal choice that parents of furbabies make. Now when I call a vets office the first thing I ask is if they have any policies about raw feeding. If they do I ask what they are and if they will treat a raw fed animal...if not then I move on to the next one. I'm not going to waste a vets or their staffs time if they don't agree or at least tolerable of food choices, I don't want anyone telling me what I'm doing is wrong when I see with my own eyes, and with my bank account, that what I'm doing is right (IMO)
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Post by maddiesmom on Nov 26, 2010 19:02:09 GMT -5
I don't want to be too repetitive, so I'll try to keep my post short I agree with much posted above I also have experience with allergies and the raw diet.... With fostering cockers, I've had many with skin issues. One was from malnutrition (hot dog and omelet diet year round), some from yeast or bacteria, and some with true allergies. They all improved from being on a grain free diet. Maddie's health really improved switching to raw. Her issue has been long and drawn out... Telling me its environmental allergies, we had rounds of antibiotics and sometimes steroids to control the itching/licking and the re-occurring infections. I went to a vet for a second opinion, and they talked me into the Royal Canin Rx diet.... WORST decisions I ever made!!! I basically let myself be talked into it - and I was so desperate for answers that I wanted to give it a shot (Sorry, Maddie!) But she got worse, and when I switched her back, she did get better. Anyway, I ended up taking Maddie to a dog dermatologist, and learned so much more... Skin issues are such a broad topic, it'd be impossible for a (regular) vet to recognize many skin of the issues, and they're often passed off as environmental or food allergies and sometimes that is just not the case. Actually, a true food allergy in canines is very rare. But many dogs are sensitive to grains, and that's what both MY vet and the dermatologist said... "Good... you're Not feeding grains. " and to raw "That's probably the best thing you could be doing for her right now" In Maddie's case, she doesn't even have allergies(after being diagnosed at the dermatologist). She has Vitamin A Responsive Dermatosis. So the benedryl and steroids just mask (or treat) the symptoms, but not the cause of them. Something I noticed from your OP is you mentioned Joon has white fur (with some brown) meaning she is more susceptible to skin allergies/issues. I was told that this is a myth. I also wanted to mention that there are a lot of pollutants (fertilizer, car chemicals, etc) that can cause itchy feet if its not internal. If you posted your skin problems on the board without asking food, it would be one of my first recommendations to switch to a raw diet. My second? To visit a dog dermatologist. The one I went to, was actually cheaper than the second opinion vet I went to We were going to do an allergy test when the dr.derm pointed things out to me that *I* didn't notice (nor my vet or the second op vet) that pointed to something OTHER than allergies Here's a dog food forum that has a lot of good information, and some that would help you create a raw diet and/or switch if you choose to go that route. They could help you pick out a dog food if you choose to go that route, too. Sometimes it gets a little heated on some of the debate threads lol but if you can look past that its pretty good. dogfoodchat.com/forum/
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Post by mrsringo on Nov 26, 2010 19:13:39 GMT -5
Okay, I just sent an email to my former work associate (and Veterinarian) who is super smart and thorough, to see what she tells me (I just want to see what both sides say). I'm considering the Acana and discussing it with my hubby/praying about it. I want to feed my pups the best thing for them but not quite sure I'm ready for/ever will feed them a raw diet. We'll see, though. Thank you all so much for your help and advice! rarnold18- It says that Arcana has two types of fish in it.. you said that this does not have the same binding chemical that most other pet foods have, correct? Sorry, my brain is hurting at this point.. I've read so many articles and posts in the last few days and I'm like.. woah. Hahaha!
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 26, 2010 21:06:52 GMT -5
Believe me- we ALL understand information overload
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Post by rarnold18 on Nov 26, 2010 22:53:42 GMT -5
Acana does not use ethoxiquin (?) as a preservative to keep the fish products or fats from going bad, they use vitamin E I think...I'm not sure what they use as a binding agent...I'll have to look for that answer
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