xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Nov 18, 2010 9:51:42 GMT -5
I go to a veterinary school and we have 3 male New Zealand Whites that need to be fostered for about a month and a half during Christmas break while students are gone. I've taken care of lab rabbits before (what they are kept as, since this is a veterinary tech, pre-vet degrees and laboratory animal management degrees) and in research BUT I've never had them as a pet! I have a large pen that I can use, Lulabelle is using it right now but by the time the rabbits come home everyone will be in another (much larger) cage. This is the pen I have www.target.com/Richell-Origami-White-Expandable-Floor/dp/B0030E3VG8/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&searchView=grid3&keywords=richell-usa&fromGsearch=true&sr=1-5&qid=1290090583&rh=&searchRank=target104545&id=Richell%20Origami%20White%20Expandable%20Floor&node=1038576|1287991011&searchSize=30&searchPage=1&searchNodeID=1038576|1287991011&searchBinNameList=subjectbin%2Cprice%2Ctarget_com_primary_color-bin%2Ctarget_com_size-bin%2Ctarget_com_brand-bin&frombrowse=0It's 5 feet long x 3 feet wide x 2.5 feet tall with 1" bars all around which I currently have fashioned with 1/4" hardware cloth. It has a plastic base that they can't scratch or dig out of, and it has a metal barred top although I don't know if they could even jump out of that. 1 - Will 3 males get along living together? They are used to each other as they all live in cages where they can smell/see each other 2 - Is this pen big enough for 3 males? They currently live in what's considered the "largest" research acceptable living space - 2 meters squared which is not very big at all. 3 - What do I use for bedding? They currently live on metal slats. Easiest to clean? 4 - Is it possible to litterbox train them in a month just to keep my sanity? 5 - Will they chew plastic hardware cloth? Or is it better to take it off completely so they just have the metal bars? Is 1" space too big? Can they get heads stuck? They are big New Zealand Whites, but I'm used to ferrets which get stuck in everything.... 6 - What kind of hay to buy? Some hay will come with them, but i imagine they will need more. Thanks so much for any help. Despite how busy I will be, I really wanted to take the opportunity to foster these guys. I love working with the rabbits at school and work, so I often think about adopting them BUT I just don't know how it would work so I figured this would be like a trial run before I commit myself to something totally different. I've never had small animals before besides the ferrets, so I'm kind of clueless how to care for them as a pet.
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 18, 2010 12:56:11 GMT -5
I don't know a lot about the care of rabbits, but here's what looks to be a good link: rabbit.org/I DO know, however, the ferrets might stress the rabbits out, since they are predators. They should be kept in entirely separate rooms.
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Nov 18, 2010 16:13:47 GMT -5
Oh, crap. I didn't realize it would be that big of a deal. I live in a studio, so they would all be living in the same "room" so to speak - there are no walls or anything to separate them. I was going to put the pen on top of my massive industrial desk (yay for thrift store finds) so that the ferrets wouldn't be able to pester them during their floor time. There is no way for them to climb my desk - there is no bookcases or any furniture around it to climb up and over, and there are no handles on it - it's just a metal, rectangular, flat desk on all sides and I know they can't climb my chair because it's too tall. What if I put up a shield of some sort, so the rabbits can't see them while they are in their cage? Will the smell still bother them? If they will be too stressed out being even in the same room as them, I don't think I'll be able to foster them. Apparently I'm the only one who offered to take them, so I'm not sure how that will work now if nobody does over winter break.
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 18, 2010 17:28:36 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong- it's not a definite. Some, it doesn't seem to bother at all. If it does bother them, yes, it would be the scent as well as the sight. Maybe you could try it for a weekend, see if it causes them any distress?
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Post by rarnold18 on Nov 18, 2010 20:16:20 GMT -5
How old are they? I know that bucks that are of breeding age don't always get along with eachother... I will forward these questions to my mother in law, she breeds NZ's, Cali's and Flemish...
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Nov 18, 2010 20:23:37 GMT -5
I couldn't even tell you how old they are, or if they are even castrated. I imagine they would be castrated since that's part of why they are there - to be used as test subjects for the students to learn basic husbandry, care, anesthesia, pre-,-post operative care, surgical techniques, the whole 9 yards. I imagine they would be young, they come in young in the beginning of the semester (September) until end of the year (May). I asked the head technician who is in charge of fostering if she thought they would get along, and she said yes and was thrilled that ANYBODY wanted to take them because nobody does. Most kids go back home to live with their families and obviously they don't want to deal with one rabbit, nevermind three.
Hm. I feel bad now. I can take the rabbits early she said, but the ferret cage needs to be finalized before they come which won't happen until next week. I might be able to do a weekend, but I imagine they wouldn't want to risk stressng them out with the traveling, new house, then back ti the clinic if it doesn't work out after a couple days since rabbits are so sensitive.
So now I don't know, I might not be able to bring them home at all - there's just really nowhere else for me to put them where they wouldnt' be able to see/smell a ferret, too.
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Post by sunnyberra on Nov 18, 2010 20:50:41 GMT -5
I actually have a rabbit, and although they (the rabbit and my ferrets) have separate areas, they're only separated by pony walls, so it's all open, still. Cinder (my rabbit) can smell them, and he's even been in their room, right near their cage (I allowed him the option, so he could get his smell in there and feel like it was "his" territory.
Also, I don't have traditional doors, I have plexiglass in tracks, so when Cinder comes out for a romp, he can (and does) go straight up to the clear plexiglass to watch my ferts stare at him). I guess it really depends on the rabbits' personalities, if you want to get right down to it, but my Cinder's never suffered for it (and my ferrets refuse to eat rabbit, in any shape or form. Out of consideration, maybe? ;D)
Honestly, that pen looks much too small for a rabbit, let alone three. They're like any other animal in that they love racing all over and exploring their surroundings. Granted, if they've lived mostly in a lab setting and in cages, that pen might not be so bad, but three unneutered males that haven't had *direct* access to each other? I can't say putting them all together in that would be a good idea.
I had two females, before, and when I introduced the youngest girl to the oldest (and they had whole room to themselves) the fight was horrendous, and the youngest girl had to have her own room. Be prepared to handle upset/angry rabbits and know that you might have to separate them.
I've never caged/penned rabbits, so for bedding I use small dog beds, old clothes and the like. I also have gigantic hayboxes - timothy, orchard grass, bermuda grass, oat hay, meadow grass, but not alfalfa - (3 in varying sizes) for Cinder to eat/potty in (since they like eating while they potty)
Litter training them is kind of in the above. Some use an actual litter and just put a tiny bit of hay in the box, but I don't. I fill the boxes (and by boxes I mean large, medium-depth storage bins) completely with hay. If you do that, the rabbit will have to hop in to eat the hay, and he'll go potty while he eats (and then he associates pottying with the box, and all is well). Of course, their territorial poos (tidy little "lines" of poo) are impossible to train them out of.
They will chew the plastic (we once used it around ours. It was subsequently destroyed).
They possibly could get their heads stuck, but it's never once happened with mine. They just don't seem as prone (in my experience) to that kind of problems as our beloved ferts.
This is just my experience over the past 9-10 years of having rabbits. Most of it is just personal preference (like I choose not to feed pellets, and never have), so answers and ideas will vary across the board. But I do hope this helps you some!
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Post by rarnold18 on Nov 19, 2010 13:32:04 GMT -5
I sent my mil your questions and this is her response:
Adult males should not be put together. They will fight and it is very likely that they will partially or completely castrate each other. They may not die from this, but I would not let it happen. They will need separate cages. Bedding can be old rags, cloth, straw, most anything that is absorbent and is disposable, cannot be eaten or will not be harmful if eaten. Rabbits love to shred paper, cloth, cardboard, etc. so old boxes are great for entertainment. Chunks of pine wood, not treated, are also good. Adult rabbits can be litter box trained. Use a newspaper type commercial litter or cedar litter. Most other "cat type" litters have too much dust and the rabbits will not be able to tolerate it. Anything that is plastic will be chewed up. 1" is not too big. Rabbits will rarely get "stuck" but won't be able to get into that space at all. Since these are not breeding rabbits and are male, you could use timothy hay, coastal, orchard grass, etc. Alfalfa is good, but may be a bit high in protein for adult bucks.
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Post by littleweasels on Nov 19, 2010 14:42:48 GMT -5
Unless they are neutered they will not get along. Even if they are neutered it can take months to bond rabbits. That cage is big enough for 2 rabbits if they get along. Rabbits also need at least 5 hours a day out of their cage. Its almost impossible to litter train rabbits that are not fixed. If they are fixed you just need to get a big litter pan and put hay in it. Some rabbits will chew plastic. One of my rabbits does, the other does not. But you will not need the hardware cloth. Adult rabbits cannot get their heads stuck in 1 inch bar spacing. You can use any grass hay like timothy, oat, orchard, meadow, brome or bermuda. No alfalfa if they are over 6 months old. I use hardwood stove pellets in their litter pans and fleece in the rest of their cage. You can also use aspen, carefresh or yesterdays news. Are they on a wire floor? Rabbits should not have a wire floor. They can get nails caught and ripped out and they can get sore hocks. As for ferrets bothering them. One of my rabbits does not care about the ferrets, the other will freak out when she sees a ferret but she does not care if she smells a ferret. She just does not want to see them.
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Nov 19, 2010 16:53:03 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I probably should have mentioned something - I cannot let these guys out free-roam. They are RESEARCH animals, not companion animals. So, they are NEVER let out of a cage unless they are having something done to them - bloodwork, neutering, whatever. They have never been placed on a floor before. They have lived their whole lives up to this point like this, I think it would b e cruel to take them and show them what the good life in a house where they could exercise, have lots of stimulation, etc and then go right back to a tiny barren cage for another 5 or 6 months. It's not that I don't want to, in fact that's why I considered fostering them because I'd love to adopt one, but it's cruel to give them the good life then yank it away.
Even so, all 5 of my ferrets are from a research facility somewhere else - they took several months to acclimate to seeing sunlight, breathing fresh air from a window, being held without gloves, being on a hardwood floor... It took a long time and for a while they were very depressed or aggressive before they started to get used to it after about a month. They are perfectly happy now and very energenic, but it took them a long time to adjust.
The reason for the small pen, no exercise space, etc is because like I said, they are used to about 6 square feet (think a bit bigger than big microwave) size cage. That is all they know. That is all they will know while they are treated as research animals. This is a reality of research. So in reality, this cage is massive - they have never been allowed this much room before.
I do think however that this might not work. Nobody is interested in caring for the rabbits, so I was asked if I could take the three since I'm the only one that has my own place and could even feasibly care for them. If I just take one I feel like that would be unfair to the other two will have to live at the clinic by themselves except to get fed twice a day, but otherwise alone. So if nobody else shows interest I think I will just tell the technician it's best to leave them all together in what they know better rather than just taking one and leaving the other two behind. Plus, the bottom of the pen is plastic - so if they are going to chew that up then that won't work.
Thanks anyways for your help
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Post by sherrylynne on Nov 19, 2010 18:01:54 GMT -5
I'm sorry this couldn't work out for you! But it was a good thought, anyway, and worth while asking about
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xeopse
Cageless and Roamin' Free
Raw Feeder
Posts: 235
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Post by xeopse on Nov 20, 2010 12:25:28 GMT -5
Well I don't know how that will work out for the animals. If nobody can drive all the way to the school every day to care for them for a month and a half, I imagine they will be put down. Hopefully somebody is either going there every day anyways, or someone else can take them. Even if that's the case, the place will be a ghost town for the other 23 and a half hours out of the day.
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