Help to make a feeding program

[tzari]

Hi I have used meat and whole rodents since 2003, but always as a supplement to kibble. The reason for this was 2 things: I was afraid my ferret would lack something in their food and i couldn't find Bone-meat. I am a little bit wierd and dont trust synetic calcium/phosfor powder.

Right now I have:

Whole adult rodents (mouse and rats). Could I in theory use these 100% like I could do with kibble or would they then lack anything? If they're 15% of the meat they get over all, would their need for bone then be covered? Or how much bone-meat should be added to the meat? Would fish meat be ok as an alternative?

I have rabbitmeat(I cut the rabbit into pieces myself), turkey and other poultry from a BARF center.Is some poultry better than other? I can also get deer meat from the Barf center, would that be a good idea? Is there a difference in the parts of meat, when it comes to muscles? Does this count as muscle, when slices like this?
: barf.dk/shop/kalkun-mesterhakket-5-260p.html

What does the heart have, that the other meat doesn't? I can only find cow heart.
The way I have understood, these elements should be 75% of the food. Is this right?

I have cow and lamb kallun(stomick). Which is better? Should this be given instead of giblets, like liver? Which one is the best as giblets? Or should both be given? I was told that the food should contain 5% lever and 5% kallun, does this sound right?

My ferret LOVES fish. Would that provide nutrition or is it just treats?

How much Taurine should I add a week to their food?

I can supply them with day old chicken. I've heard it is a great taurine source. Is that true? It sounds a bit weird to me, since they're newborn. I've always thought of them as treats and good for the teeth.

Would these elements be enough to feed 100% Barf or would I also need a vitamin supplement of some kind?.

How much meat should they get per day. I think here is the "rule" like X% of the bodyweight if so how large a %.

When should they get ekstra supplement? A jill that are going to have kits should get extra, I guess.If so what supplement would be recommended? Or is the Barf "complete" to all ferrets no matter age, neutered or not and so on?

How is this for a 2 week periode: 2 days with giblets of some kind(kallun and lever), 4 days with whole rodents(mouse and rats), 7 days with rabbit or poultry(and maybe dear), 1 day without meat. Maybe one of the 7 days should be fish?

In the natue they eat a lot of frogs and amphibians. What do they contain and should they be given as a supplement. Amphibian are protected in europe, so I can't use that

And the taurine, bone meat and vitamin(if that should be used) should be given how often?
A jill that is with kits and a ferret that is growing, should have a day without meat, right? At what age should I introduce a day without meat and at what age should I stop it again?

If i do it like this, would i be sure, they get what they need? If not please tell me what i have misunderstood, missed or would give too much of. I prefer to KISS(keep it simple stupid) and natural (how they would do it in the nature) so if i could just use those elements, it would be great

[horse656]

chicks do not contain that much nutrients and shouldn't be given too often.
heart has lots of Taurine, so as long as they get enough you shouldn't have to need to supplement them.

females usually eat 1-3 ounces and males are usually 2-5 ounces.

they should be having around 4 days with bones, each week, or 6-8 meals. i wouldn't feed liver more than once a week as you could get a vitamin imbalance and too much vitamin A is bad also.

more experience people/mentors will probably pop in and add to this

[sherrylynne]

Hi! What you have there are good protein sources. They need a minimum of 3 different ones, and you have listed 5 in addition to the beef heart and the venison(deer). Obviously, the more, the better.
Try breaking up your menu into either days or meals.
So, 7 days a week, or 14 meals. Of those, bone in meats like whole prey(mouse/rat/rabbit/chicken wings or necks/turkey necks/duck necks) 4 days, or 8 meals a week.
Muscle meats 2 days or 4 meals a week. Those would be things like beef heart, turkey meat, gizzards, or basically any meat without bones.
Things like liver, lung, kidney, spleen, brain, are organs, and only one meal a week, or the same amount split up over the week. Good rule of thumb is one chicken liver, or the same size other liver(about 2 oz) per ferret per week. Same goes for the other organs, along with the liver.
What the heart contains is taurine, which they don't make inside their own bodies, so they need it added in the diet. The more a muscle works, the more taurine is in it. Which is why heart is ideal. You can also use taurine supplements, human grade.
As for what extra a nursing/pregnant jill and kits would need, someone else will have to step in on that one.

[tzari]

Looks like i have understand a little bit of the barf after all

Should i use kallun(stomick) after all then? If so is cow or lamb the best.

What would be the best to use of those chooses:
Cow or Chicken lever.

If I do it like this with 2 meals a day:
day 1: Rodent to both meals
day 2: cow heart /turkey neck
day 3: kallun / liver mixed in the deer
day 4: a Rodent to both meals
day 5: Deer/Rabbit
day 6: turkey neck/cowheart
day 7: Rodent to both meals
And once every 14th day let them have a day with out food(what is a day lke that called ind english?)

What day would be the best to choose to the day with out meat and from what age should this start. From they are 8 month - 5 years?

Should I add any vitamins,taurine or Bone-meat to this program then ?

Should Fish be used or is it just "candy"?

[Heather]

Good variety..
On the days that you feed organ meat you may want to feed a bone in meat on that day just to solid up the stool. When you mention rodent, are you feeding just mice or are you feeding mice and rats or other rodents? I think you're doing quite well, if you're feeding bonemeal as well (I think I remember reading something about this in one of your previous posts) your diet looks good. The heart meat provides you with the taurine but if you're uncomfortable at all or the meat has been frozen or refrozen then you might want to add a capsule. I personally don't feed any vitamins, I figure that I've covered the bases by feeding variety. If I've got a furkid who's not well and is only eating one protein source then I will add a good multi then. My guys love fish and get it as part of their diet. It was suggested to me by my mentor about once or twice a week. I will also check and see what she sent me regarding special diets for pregnant/nursing jills. I know that she uses kitten replacement and supplements with bonemeal to raise the calcium levels that are heavily depleated during pregnancy. She also adds a raw egg during that time as well. I hope that helps a little
ciao

[tzari]

Rodents are mouse and rats. If i can find any other small animals i would also use that.

How much bone-meal should i add and how often, to be sure. Can it be over-dosed?

Can Taurine be over-dosed? The meat i from a barf center so i guess it might have been frozen some times after all. I know A am strange but dont wont to risk anything

Are some fish better than others
I found those stange fish and my ferret LOVES then:
www.chelydra.org/goby_fish.jpg Have NO ide what it is but they are slimey like eel

Thanks so much for the answers

[sherrylynne]

When I add bone meal to soup sometimes, I use about a tsp per 8oz of meat. Yes, they can get too much bone meal. It throws their calcium out of whack, and can affect the kidneys(stones and such).
Again, not sure about the pregnant/nursing jills, but the diet you listed above does contain enough bone for most ferrets(9 meals over the week), even without the bone meal. If they aren't getting enough bone, it takes a while for deficiencies to show up, and they'd have very loose stool before that happens.
No, they will not overdose on taurine. What the body can't use, it just evacuates.
For fish, the smaller fresh water fish are much better. Smelts, sardines, etc. The larger the fish, the more toxins it contains, like mercury. Since big fish eat smaller fish, the mercury just builds up in the fish's body, and doesn't dissipate.
I don't fast my ferrets(go without food), but they do get one "light" day, where I don't give them quite as much to eat. That way, I know they'll find all the little stashes of meat I missed picking up
My concern about fasting them is the fact they can also suffer from hepatic lipidosis(fatty liver disease) the same as cats can. We are lucky, with ferrets(unlike with cats), that they don't suffer permanent damage from this, though.

[Heather]

You will know when you're adding too much bone and or bone meal because their stool will start to get harder (you don't want a constipated ferret ) I would add a little until you get what you're looking for. Can you overdose taurine....I don't believe so, I think it's one of those things that if you get too much it is expelled with the urine. Vit a is the one that you have to be more careful of, but you will know by the slimy black poops that you're feeding too much of that.
As far as fish, you only need to check it out if they're subject to parasites like flukes, or something like that, salmon are prone to these and the pet can get very ill with it. I usually avoid the larger fish like tuna and such as they would have a longer time to collect more toxins in the flesh. As long as the fish isn't smoked, pickled or cooked I feed it .
ciao

[tzari]

Was going to pick-up the mouse and suddently the price was 3 times what they said And i dont have 55 dollar/kg to use for mice

Can I use rats only indtill i found mice to more decent prices

[Heather]

You are feeding more meat than just the mice..right? So, this won't be a problem. That's one of the reasons why I feed commercial raw, my own ground mix, frankenprey and prey. That way I cover all my bases and if I can't get a particular protein source then I've got others to fall back on. Last year, I lost my commercial source for whole rabbit. This was annoying but did not destroy my feeding plan as I was already feeding other protein sources. Now, I'm starting to find new sources for rabbit and my guys are happier but at no time were there problems in a balanced diet as I do feed multiple proteins.
ciao

[rarnold18]

it looks like your meal plan is pretty good. You have multiple protien sources. Green Tripe, which is raw cow stomach not bleached or processed, is good. My ferrets will eat it in the ground mixes I feed but only a handful will eat it alone as a meal. Tripe is stinky and unless you want your hands to smell like it for the rest of the day I reccomend using disposable latex gloves (or non latex if your allergic) my dogs love tripe and will do anything to have it, the cats just look at me like I've lost my mind! I don't have a fasting day with my business, I think their digestive systems are just to short and I don't want anyone to be hungry (and this is why I have a 27 pound cat) most of my business were neglected or starved or both at one point in their lives and I don't ever want them to ever think it will happen to them again...so they always have access to food, no ferret will go hungry here!

[tzari]

Jul 31, 2010 20:52:36 GMT -5 tzari said:

If I do it like this with 2 meals a day:
day 1: Rodent to both meals
day 2: cow heart /turkey neck
day 3: kallun / liver mixed in the deer
day 4: a Rodent to both meals
day 5: Deer/Rabbit
day 6: turkey neck/cowheart
day 7: Rodent to both

I have a small problem. Right now i can not affort to feed rodent 3 times a weeks because of all the money i used for Birdies operation. (Rodent are very expensive in Denmark )
How can i change this feeding program so there are only one day with rodents and what should I give on the 2 other rodent days instead intill i find a better place to buy rodent to a more fair price.

[Heather]

I would be tempted to add a boned meat. Even without the rodents, you've got a good variety of meat. As long as you have 3 protein sources (which you have) I would just mix and match what you're already using.
ciao

[tzari]

If I do it like this with 2 meals a day:
day 1: Rodent to both meals
day 2: cow heart /turkey neck
day 3: kallun / liver mixed in the deer
day 4: cowheart/ turkey neck
day 5: Deer/Rabbit
day 6: turkey neck/cowheart
day 7: deer

How often would you add bone-meat and taurine.
Should I add something ekstra to "replace" the intestines/brain and so in the rodents?

[sherrylynne]

Personally, I'd add at least two more "bone in" meals. You've got enough heart there to cover the taurine, so you really don't need to worry about that. Your organ meal is covered, and you've got 5 protein sources. Maybe something like this:

Mon: Rodent/rodent
Tues: Heart/turkey neck
Wed: Kallun,liver/rabbit
Thurs: Heart/turkey neck
Fri: Deer/rabbit
Sat: Meat chunks(any kind)/turkey neck
Sun: Deer

Can you get chicken/duck/turkey meat chunks?