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Post by Heather on Jan 30, 2010 0:27:35 GMT -5
Name: Damon and Christine HF Forum Username: Odin 1. Ferrets for Dummies 2. Not 100% sure just yet. We are interested in improving our ferret's health and life. We are open to raw food and whole prey diets. We are nervous about the difficulty of the switch since we have problems with her finicky eating already. We are concerned about sanitation. 3. She is very finicky about eating. We want to optimize her diet, improve her appetite, health, lifespan and energy levels. We want what is best for her. 4. We are absolutely committed. She is part of the family. We feel like we have been sustaining her on McDonalds. 5. We have one female ferret named Cassi, but we are also considering getting a second to enrich her life and to give another ferret a good healthy home. (Too many bad furparents out there!) She is 1 1/2. No current health problems except for the weird eating habits. We have a vet appointment Monday to get a clean bill of health. Cassi is very tiny. We can't see her bones, but we can feel them when we pic her up. From other posts this means she is the right weight, but she is pretty small. 6. She was eating 8in1 Ultimate crunchy, just recently switched her to zumee in an attempt to get her to eat more. She seems to to better on the new food, but it has only been a few days and we still have to coax her with ferrevite. Supplements: Ferrevite, Ferretone, Ferrelax, Nbone chew treats every once in a while, the occasional lick of peanut butter. 7. no 8. We are teachers, So she gets out in the morning for a little more than an hour, but once we're home, she's out. She is also a very quiet ferret. Doesn't dook much. We have seen other ferrets that chatter all the time, she really only dooks when she is playing, but not always and she is very playful. She is a crazy climber. She has scaled dog gates and has no fear of heights, unfortunatly. She is EXTREMELY bonded to us. She is very well trained, know her name and ours, comes when called, litter trained very well (several around the house) NEVER nips, and follows us everywhere we go. She knows the sound of her mommys car door in the driveway and always wakes up to say hello. 9. 24/7 10. www.christineanddamon.com/assets/cassisnow2.png Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (Bigsis7) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by bigsis7 on Jan 30, 2010 12:36:56 GMT -5
Hey Odin! It's great that you've decided to switch Cassi to a raw diet!
I've been feeding my ferrets raw for about a year and a half. I love it! It's so much more healthier, gets rid of the stink, and gives them more energy :]! Since I moved to Canada I've sadly had to include some kibble in their diet, which has made them a bit more picky and stinky, but they still receive meat regularly. The only reason I had to turn to kibble was because in Canada meat costs about twice as much as it does in the US.
Currently I'm owned by two ferrets Oliver and Marley (Breeze in my siggy). I got Ollie at a pet store April 19th, 2008 when he was about 12 weeks old. He turns 2 in February :]. I got Marley from a breeder in Maryland May 31st, 2009. She turns 3 years old April 23rd :]! Ollie thinks he's a king and is definitely a momma's boy. Marley is the spaz of the duo! Always on the move, but she does have her "slow" moments, haha!
First off you can start soaking her kibble in warm water or in meat juice/blood. This will get her used to a different texture of food. Let me know how she takes that :]! If you want you can also try blending some meat into a soupy mix and pouring it over kibble.
I look forward to mentoring you!
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odin
Going Natural
Posts: 153
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Post by odin on Feb 27, 2010 23:40:13 GMT -5
Hey, sorry about the mix up. It might be a long read, but it would probably be good for you to find the post in the medical section i started about cassi called helicobacter infection. The story of her medical problems this past two months is exhausting. Basically she stopped being interested in food about 1 1/2 months ago, and after two vets, antibiotics, surgery, biopsies and prescription diets... no one knows anything. She is eating now, has an appetite, plays, has gained back about 30 grams or so (she's REALLY little to start with) poops pretty normally. So we basically want to treat her obviously testy tummy by changing her to a healthier diet. Our vet even sort of hinted that people have had success with other chronic intestinal issues like IBD using a raw or whole prey diet.
Today we made puree using the following recipe.
8 oz chicken thigh meat, skin and fat half a chicken liver tsp ground egg shell little bit of pumpkin water
She licked a bit off our fingers to our surprise, maybe about a tsp. she has always taken chicken babyfood from us when given, so we were aiming for the same consistency, so she would recognize the texture. we did the same thing when we had to get her to eat her max-calorie veterinary recovery food to put weight back on her. She still had her max-cal dinner after trying to get her to eat the raw tonight.
I'm just so wary of taking food away from her to leave her with just the raw, b/c it was so difficult and heart wrenching to get her to have an appetite for the crap she is eating now.
What exactly is the danger of her eating kibble and raw at the same time or "too" close together?
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Post by bigsis7 on Feb 28, 2010 0:08:52 GMT -5
That's fine. Health issues are tough. I read the thread, how frustrating! Recipe looks good! If you want mixing some of the chicken baby food with the puree might help encourage her to eat more. Kibble is digested way slower than raw, so it can cause an upset in the stomach. I never had a problem with this, but some ferrets don't handle it well at all. General rule is to wait 4-6 hours after feeding kibble to feed raw. Have you ever heard of colloidal silver? It's this awesome supplement that kills bacteria and works very well. Humans use it a lot for many different things. I used it for my ferrets and rats when they weren't doing well, had an injury, or just as a small supplement every once in a while. Anyways I don't think it'll cure Cassi, but I don't think it would hurt to try. Just add a couple drops or so into the puree. Here's a link that explains some of the advantages: www.emusnest.com/
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odin
Going Natural
Posts: 153
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Post by odin on Feb 28, 2010 11:19:22 GMT -5
Very interesting about the colloidal silver. I may have to check that out.
We tried a bit more of the puree this morning with a little more water. she would still lick a little bit off of our fingers if we held her, but won't sit and eat on her own and didn't eat all that much. How much and how often should we feed her?
again i'm wary of denying her the max cal since it's the first thing she has really been interested in eating for a while. She has access to kibble, since she really doesn't seem to be eating a lot of the raw puree. She's so small, i'm really nervous about weight loss.
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Post by bigsis7 on Feb 28, 2010 12:47:47 GMT -5
Well since it sounds like she's not eating a lot of it, I'd say feeding her the puree 2-3 times a day is probably best. Or just bring it out throughout the day until she absolutely won't touch it.
Yeah I'd say the best thing right now is to keep some of the max-cal in her cage for now. It can't hurt her more than not letting her have it. Have you tried pouring some of the puree over the kibble? If you do that and then mix the puree in, it could help get some more meat in her.
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odin
Going Natural
Posts: 153
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Post by odin on Feb 28, 2010 20:06:46 GMT -5
This evening we mixed the puree with equal parts chicken babyfood, and she actually ate a bit right out of the bowl without us holding her. We wanted her to get a bit more into her so after that we held her and she continued to lick it off our fingers. She is still snacking on her kibble though, no problems.
Although we leave food for her in the form of kibble, she usually only eats at certain times of the day. A little while after she wakes up, then again in the afternoon and again at night. We inadvertently got her into that cycle. she used to only like eating a decent amount of her kibble (at the time we were only feeding her 8in1 ultimate crunchy) when it was soaked in warm water. So we just did that in the morning, when we got home and again at night. Even now after going through the appetite crash of last month, she still seems to follow that feeding schedule with light snacking in between.
The vet said that the max cal was meant to put weight on her and to force feed it if necessary, but the goal would be to get her back onto a kibble that she could keep down. The kibble he gave us a prescription kibble food. 35% protein, something like 20% fat. It's not healthy at all, three of the first four ingredients are corn products. But, it is healthier for her than the max cal, which mixed with heavy creme is probably tons of carbs. She is at a good weight right now. 1lb 7.5 oz about (she's a tiny girl). she got down to 615 grams and is now up to 660. hopefully she will continue to put on weight. My goal is to replace the max cal with the raw. She doesn't have it all day. It was always given to her warm, three times a day at least and she would actually gobble a lot of it up on her own.
Whatever she was sick with, she seems to be better from now. hopefully the raw switch will help prevent this tummy problem in the future. i will continue to leave her the easy to digest kibble for now, b/c i'm wary of her not having access to food, and she doesn't seem to pick at cold puree, more like a big meal food.
How long will the puree last if i keep it refrigerated?
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Post by bigsis7 on Mar 1, 2010 19:40:41 GMT -5
That's great progress! The fact that she also likes soaked kibble is good, because it'll make it easier for different textures.
I think as long as she's not on the kibble super long and it's helping her stay healthy, it'll be ok. But we definitely want her to be eating more raw.
Refrigerated I believe it should last around 3-4 days. I'm not positive on that though.
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odin
Going Natural
Posts: 153
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Post by odin on Mar 2, 2010 10:57:09 GMT -5
This morning and last night she ate a pretty significant amount of the puree mixed with babyfood on her own. She usually trusts us enough that she will lick it off my finger if we want her to eat a little more than she is willing on her. No force feeding so far. She even got a piece of the skin and chewed it up and ate it! We are so proud of her. Still freaks out a little at chunks of meat and spits them out though.
I'm very surprised at how small her poops are. She seems to be eating as much of the new puree and babyfood as she ate of the wet max-cal, but her poops are like she didn't even eat. I know that raw is FAR more nutritious and so much more of it is efficiently used by the body, but i didn't expect this much of a reduction in her poop size. Are most first timers this surprised, even when they know it was coming?
I'm trying to catch her and feed her when i know she's getting hungry so that she doesn't eat the kibble. This morning for example, I beat her to breakfast and had the stuff ready and warmed before she woke up enough to head over to the kibble for breakfast. She ate quite a bit and didn't have any of the kibble after. I will still be keeping the kibble in the cage in case, but like i said before she seems to have naturally fallen into a meal schedule and i usually get home to find that she hasn't eaten since i fed her and the only thing that may have changed is poop in the litterpan.
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Post by bigsis7 on Mar 2, 2010 17:27:05 GMT -5
I'm glad she's eating more! And the fact she ate a piece of skin is good, too! I'm guessing she'll try some chunks soon if she's trying the skin. It is a pretty big difference. Cuts down on the smell a lot, haha. Just make sure she's pooping at least every 4 hours. Really small poops and a low frequency of pooping can hint to a blockage. She sounds fine though and like she's improving :]. Yeah most of my newbie raw feeders and when I started feeding raw were pretty surprised at the huge difference! I think it's pretty awesome how she has her own schedule planned out, lol! My ferrets just ate whenever they felt like it . Sounds like a good plan and like it's working. The less kibble she eats, the better. Great job!
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odin
Going Natural
Posts: 153
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Post by odin on Mar 2, 2010 21:23:27 GMT -5
Ok, so I remade her puree today. I halved the recipe, b/c so much went to waste. I used about 5 oz of thigh meat, really tried to get the darkest part right by the bone. I had to defrost it in the microwave though, some of it got a little cooked. I didn't use that part, but how bad is it to defrost the raw meat in the microwave? anyway... added 1/4 chicken liver, 1/2 tsp of crushed egg and water. Still can't find any chicken hearts, or ground bone. any ideas where i could find this stuff?
she ate a little kibble tonight, late, hours after her afternoon feeding. I was planning to give her another raw feeding though. I'll wait an hour before I do.
How real is the danger of vitamin A poisoning from liver? should i be mixing in other proteins now, or waiting for her to get accustomed to one? Do i have to worry about balancing fat content or is the raw meat balanced in itself?
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Post by bigsis7 on Mar 3, 2010 18:48:29 GMT -5
Microwaving takes too many nutrients out. To defrost the meat I'd just lay it out for a couple hours or stick it in some cold-lukewarm water (while in a ziploc bag). Where have you looked? I usually could find hearts at Giant, Shoppers, and sometimes Wal-Mart.
The meat is already balanced for ferrets, so you don't have to worry about that. By proteins do you mean meat? Well it's recommended liver should only be fed once a week, but since you aren't feeding a whole chicken liver in each soup and she doesn't eat the whole soup in one day, I'd say your safe for a while. If you can find some chicken hearts to feed her and then feed liver every other day, that would be better though. Every ferret is different, but if the vitamin a levels are too high she'll have really loose stools before vitamin a becomes dangerous.
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odin
Going Natural
Posts: 153
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Post by odin on Mar 4, 2010 10:56:05 GMT -5
I'll try looking at some of the markets around here for the hearts. By protein i do mean different meats.
Also how much should she be eating? She's about 1 lb 7.5 oz now, she's a little girl. i've been trying to keep track of what i'm feeding, she is definitely eating an oz or more a day of the raw. I'm happy to say that she is gaining weight, which is nice after the struggle with her not eating at all.
how loose is too loose stools? I know that in kibble there is stuff in most to make them poop the way we think is healthy, big brown solid logs. I'm not used to the new poop. It's got some firmness, but sometimes is pretty wet, again much smaller. I don't want to be the guy who posts pictures of poop, but if i need to i will. It does seem to be getting a little better though, more closer to what i expected. maybe she just got outta whack from the diet change, especially after having such a long battle with her tummy problems.
SHE however is much improved. she is off her antibiotics and pepcid for a few days now and still has a steadily improving interest in her raw soupy. she's filling out, i can feel her getting meat back on her bones and she's pretty active and playful.
Can diet changes affect kidney function? she seems to suddenly be having more accidents than usual. she had one pee that seemed clear, but only once, and it is difficult to keep track of it when she is going on litter.
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Post by bigsis7 on Mar 4, 2010 21:44:46 GMT -5
Just wanted to make sure ;]. You could try mixing in another meat with the chicken to see how she likes it! Pork is a good mild meat and beef is a really nutritional meat that you could try.
I'd say 1-2 ounces a day is probably good at her size. It varies from ferret to ferret. I had a ferret who weighed 1lb 6oz and she ate more than my 2lb boy!
Too loose would be like diarrhea. With raw meat her poo will be softer, but they shouldn't be liquidy (don't you love how us ferret owners talk about their poo half the time ;]) lol!
Yay!! That's great! Hoping she starts eating chunks of meat soon, but for now her improvement is great!
Since raw meat has so much more water in it then kibble (kibbles basically flavored cardboard compared to raw meat) she will pee a lot more than usual. Once Cassi gets used to eating raw meat, she'll probably stop drinking as much water as she used too on kibble. That should help cut down on the accidents.
Keep up the great work :]!
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odin
Going Natural
Posts: 153
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Post by odin on Mar 5, 2010 13:06:33 GMT -5
I'm going to try a supermarket i was directed to by some co-workers has having "weird stuff like that" when i asked people about chicken hearts. I'll be making a fresh puree right after work today, so i'll try to get some of the heart in there. If i get them, this is my plan:
5oz chicken thigh meat (gonna try to ween her all the way off any babyfood added before i switch meats) 1 heart (if i can find it) 1/4 oz chicken liver 1/2 tsp of egg shell or ground bone (if i can find it)
How's that sound for the next three day feeding? Also, a chicken heart just counts as really good dark muscle meat, so there isn't any danger in over doing it with the heart is there? not like with liver and vitamin A. are there limits on other organs as well?
What are some good treats i can give her? Crunchy or chewy would be great, i think she misses chewing on something, or crunching something up. are there any healthy treats that are kind of universal for ferrets loving them? kinda like they all seem to love ferretone?
Also, how long will my tub of chicken livers that i got (which i have used only one from for the whole week) last? should i get a new one and just freeze it for now?
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