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Post by carnivorouszoo on May 23, 2010 10:39:16 GMT -5
Well we are getting our first setup of rats and getting back into mice. Tuesday night a breeder guy is selling me a rex male, a rex female and two tan females for $15. Not bad as a few years ago I had gotten two female rats for $12 as pets. They were petshop rats, old retired breeders and did not live long. Mean buggers too. But these will are all about 9 weeks old. He says to keep the male away from the females until they are 6 months old or they will die. I did some research and most says to intro the girls to the boy at 4 months. How old were yours or did you get older ones from the start? The only older ones he has are siamese and he wants $20 for two girls! Nope, I won't do that. Don't want show animals, I want cute feeders lol. The mice I am going to have to go with petshop mice can get a pair for about $5. Color doesn't matter too much with the mice I like them all I basically would like some advice on how old to intro the girls to the boy at, should they be kept seperate or? I am told (and have read) the male will kill other males after having mated. Is this true? I do not want him lonely but I do not want my females to die because they were introd to the male too young. He is feeding old roy dog food (ICK) should I get a small bag and slowly switch them over or at this age do you think they will take new foods ok? I can get lab block no problem. I am going to use tub housing, I would use a cage but the cages I have all have 1 inch spacing and I do not want escapees. Especially babies. Anyone on here near Clinton in MO? I'd love to swap stock now and then to keep bloodlines from getting over-inbred. Just a thought! Will share pics when we get home.
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Post by fuzzymom on May 23, 2010 11:43:27 GMT -5
Good deal on the rats! The tan females are probably beiges.
As far as introducing the male to the females, I would try and wait until they are 16 weeks old (4 months) before introducing the boy. If they are of breeding weight (250g+) then they can be bred earlier (3 months) It is not likely they will die if introduced too early. They may conceive a litter early and may lose a lot of weight.
With food, I don't bother gradually switching them over to anything new. I've never had issues with my rats with switching brands. I would use lab block, however. In my experience, dog food tends to make my rats greasy and they smell bad.
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Post by carnivorouszoo on May 23, 2010 11:55:24 GMT -5
Thank you for the weight info! And for letting me know to go ahead and put them right onto lab block. I was not sure if ratties would need a gradual shift or not. I am going to a swap the 3rd to the 6th and will see if I can get a nice cage for the ratties as I do notk now if they do as well as mice in a tub system which is what they are in at the breeders and will be in to start here. I do not like dog food for anything so we agree there!
He said the tans are like tan mice, but we will see!
I will be sure to keep them seperate until the girls are either 250 g or 4 months. Should I keep them all together once introd or just take the girls to visit the male now and then? He keeps his together all the time 1 male to 5 females and pulls and seperates babies by gender at 5 weeks.
I've never bred rats before. I would love the best info to keep them going as long as possible with as few problems as possible.
I use shredded paper for bedding for my animals. This should not be an issue right? Thank you again for the info!
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Post by fuzzymom on May 24, 2010 12:03:03 GMT -5
Hmm, the only color marking that would be similar to a tan mouse (where it has a light colored belly and dark top) would be a berkshire. Berkshires have white markings on their belly. I've never seen a rat with a tan belly before but I guess you will have to wait and see.
Tubs are actually very good enclosures for rats, given that they do not chew their way out. Make the tub enclosures very secure and you should be fine. If you are using tubs and converting them to enclosures (cutting out a window and putting in wire screen), make sure to use side ventilation as opposed to top ventilation. Side ventilation reduces smell and keeps the rats healthier.
You can breed different ways. Some people introduce the male to the female(s) for 1-2.5 weeks and then let the females have their litters either as a group or individually. This allows the females to have their babies without becoming pregnant again right after birth. They can becoming pregnant again within 24 hours of giving birth. If you don't allow her to get pregnant right after birth, this allows you to give her a break after the babies are weaned. Some people allow their females to get pregnant again right after birth. I have allowed a few of my rats to do this. If you go this route, make sure you keep an eye on your female's weight and overall condition.
Do not be alarmed if the first litters are a train wreck. Sometimes a female doesn't know what to do and she ends up losing anywhere from a few to the whole litter. I just recently had a female who's first litter was 18 pups. She lost all but 3.
As for bedding, I find that using a layer of wood pelleted bedding and then a layer of aspen (pine shavings) keeps the smell down.
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Post by carnivorouszoo on May 24, 2010 17:23:01 GMT -5
Tan mice actually have a reddish brown belly. The white bellies are called foxes although some prove to be genetically tans with poor quality.
Saddly we blew a tire and now can not get the rats or mice this payday. ARG!!!!
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Post by carnivorouszoo on May 26, 2010 0:51:55 GMT -5
Well, only mice so far, but here is what I got:
a longer than normal haired broken marked black male, a longer than normal haired female that looks like a broken banded black tan?, a deep even gray tan- NOT lilac, maybe blue? male, and a blue roan female. I am trying out the males seperate from the females set up. So the females are together adjusting and the males have their own bins.
I plan to wait 3 days then intro both females to the longish haired male for 5 days. I would do 7 but I have to go out for a weekend trip before 7 would be up and do not want them together unsupervised. It will be interesting to see what the longish haired mice give me.
What I mean by longer than normal and longish is that their fur is definitely longer than the other two but I do not think I can really call it long haired. It seems to be mostly guard hairs that are longer and are not everywhere longer just some here and there. I am hoping this means they carry the longhair gene even though they do not fully express it. Does anyone know if it is possible for genetic carriers of a trait to have visible markers like some longer hair rather than all of it being long? If anyone is interested in pics let me know and I will take some.
Oh the reason I think the one female is some kind of broken banded black tan? She looks like a broken black from the top but when she stands up from the top of her chest to her little mouth is a dirty brownish color. Also from her "waist" to where her tail starts is the same color but the middle of her belly is a clean white. This gives me reason to doubt it being dirt or urine staining. Any thoughts on if this coloring is possible or if it could be something else doing it?
They appear very healthy and are on a health watch and quarantine.
I hope to get rats soon, it just won't be the ones I mentioned before. Made me so upset I really wanted those neato ratties.
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Post by carnivorouszoo on May 27, 2010 8:56:15 GMT -5
The females were showing sings of being in heat so after discussing it with hubby we decided to intro the girls to the tan male instead of the longhaired male. He did not waste time lol. We will leave them in with the male until we leave for our camping trip next thursday. So here is how we stand now:
Females: 2 Males: 2 Litters: 0 Hold backs: 0 Grow outs: 0
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Post by rattum on May 27, 2010 10:00:10 GMT -5
Male rats will NOT attack each other after being bred. That's a stupid myth. They will get along just fine after, as long as they were fine before. Female rats go into heat every 4-5 days for a few hours. I'd leave the male in for a week to ensure he gets her during her cycle. I know a lot of people on here keep females together with their litters, but it isn't recommended, as some females will steal and kill each others babies, or play tug of war with them. You can intro the males to female at 4 months. I wouldn't do it any sooner than that, honestly. I think tanks and tubs provide horrid ventilation for rats, but most feeder breeders do not care. However, monitor for signs of stress or illness. Including clicking, wheezing, sneezing, open mouthed breathing, "hiccups", excessive noise, noisey breathing, porphyrn (red liquid) around eyes and nose, head tilts, etc. I don't recommend tubs. I had female rats who chewed through the bottom of their superpet cage. If they're bored, they chew. It isn't a myth that rats can chew through concrete.
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Post by carnivorouszoo on May 27, 2010 15:26:16 GMT -5
Wow, ok I did not get the rats. A friend gave me my choice of mice from a bunch he got for his boa. These mice are between 4 and 6 months old. Really old enough to breed. Male MICE WILL kill each other. Well known FACT not myth. I have no experience with rats ok? But when I get rats you will be the one I come to with questions. My tubs have hardware cloth making windows in them for excellent ventilation.
I do appreciate your concern for the rats but I do not have any yet.
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Post by carnivorouszoo on May 27, 2010 15:29:07 GMT -5
Rattum, just noticed you must be answering the original post. Sorry. Your info will be a great help when I get my rats. For them I plan to use a cage of some sort, possibly handmade since the ones at the store are either too small or so expensive its ridiculous. What are your thoughts on a rack system with a wheel and toys for the rats?
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Post by horse656 on May 29, 2010 11:41:20 GMT -5
apparently the wheels distract from breeding, with mice, i have no idea with rats. if i know the mice are pregnant i put in the wheel and take it out a few days before i think they'll drop.
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Post by goingpostal on May 29, 2010 23:51:00 GMT -5
I breed my mice at 3 months old, males before that. I keep my females in pairs in 10 gallon tanks and never take out the wheels. Other than one bad mom and one way too young mom I have never had an issue with moms fighting or litters being killed off. I use the same bedding as fuzzymom, wood pellets with a bit of aspen and feed lab block.
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Post by rattum on May 30, 2010 20:36:56 GMT -5
Sorry, yes, I was answering the original post. I don't always flip through all the replies. :]
A rack system will work, as long as the tops are completely open. The ventilation is still crappy, and you'll need to rotate breeders frequently, because they become obese from lack of activity. If you can give an alternate caging system, that would be better. Even smallish hamster cages that are bigger than the small lab rat racking systems would be better. I know most feeder breeders and such do use a rack system.
Wheels for females and babies is a great idea! They love the activity, it gives them something to do. And it doesn't distract from breeding. :] However, if you're worried, you can remove toys for 4-5 days during breeding.
Homeade toys are easy and cheap. Toilet paper rolls stuffed with toilet paper and bits of food, wooden beads, wooden childrens blocks, wooden bird toys, cardboard boxes. Even if they are just for food, it's nice to give them something to do. Rats are very intelligent, complex creatures very similar in behavior to ferrets. You can imagine how bored a ferret would be in a small cage.
If you're going to make a homeade cage, I've seen people have awesome success with metal shelving units. You know the kind people use in garages. They simply attach hardware cloth around it. It's big enough for lots of rats, plus the wire cloth can be purchased small enough that baby rats cannot escape. And as long as a nest box is provided, females could give birth in it. If you don't want to do that, a 10-20 gallon tank works good or the babies first two weeks of life, before they are fed or euth'd.
You can email me at Hi.Thar@live.com if you want to discuss in depth.
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